Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: scott slade on July 04, 2010, 09:54:00 AM
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Just returned from a great trip to the Mojave Desert, and some awesome trails. Did not buy my 05 TJ Unlimited six speed for the great mileage...!! but there has to be some way to get a few more yards out of a tank..? What is the best result for the buck...? Any thoughts...? Thanks... :-\
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buy tires with a low rolling resistance...something like a toyo open country h/t.
I dont know what kind of tires you have on your jeep, but usually a/t's deliver decent mileage while providing decent traction and decent off road ability, they are lighter than mud tires generally, I think you can sum up an A/T tire as a jack of all trades, master of none.
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Rolling on 31 inch BFG AT's.... Always been a good tire for the trails I do, and on the road... I thought... Wondering about an after market air intake..? :-\
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if there were any addons that could increase fuel economy, the manufacturer would have put them on. they really do know how to build vehicles. addons may increase power or noise or ability, but they all end up losing in fuel economy.
unless you want to put some aerodynamic addons :)
post your fuel economy or do a search, there's lots of posts to compare with.
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You're right.I don't think people purchase Jeeps with fuel economy on their mind. That's what hybrids and Honda Civics are for. Your TJ has the aerodynamics of a brick. Forget little doo-dads that may or may not increase fuel economy, and adjust your driving techniques. No jack rabbit starts, don't carry excessive amounts of weight in the vehicle.
Give it a shot. It won't cost you anything to make small adjustments to your driving.
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Just a thought, but an electric rad. fan might help...though some may debate the off-road reliability of them.
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if there were any addons that could increase fuel economy, the manufacturer would have put them on. they really do know how to build vehicles. addons may increase power or noise or ability, but they all end up losing in fuel economy.
unless you want to put some aerodynamic addons :)
post your fuel economy or do a search, there's lots of posts to compare with.
I disagree with this general statement....so if you will follow me on my fairy-tail scenario..
Fact: When I work near/at Fort Mac, I get noticeably better fuel economy then around Calgary. Fort Mac is also quite hilly, perhaps not as hilly as Calgary, but it is definitely not a flat landscape. Calgary Airport is 3553 ft above sea level. Fort McMurray is 1214 ft above sea level.
Theory: I have read that for every 1000 ft increase in elevation you loose ~10% of your power. A 200 hp engine will lose 20hp at 1000ft, and additional 18 hp at 2000ft, another 16hp at 3000ft, and another 7 hp at 3500 ft. In Calgary, a 200 hp engine makes ~139hp, but that same engine in fort mac makes ~180hp
Jeeps are severely underpowered, no one will argue that, however if you add forced induction (enter fairy-tale land) you first somewhat negate the 10% loss per 1000 ft as you are now pressurizing the engine, plus you add over and above. A normally aspirated engine is much more efficient at sea level vs higher elevations.
The stock 4.0l powerplant is starved of air in the Calgary area. If you supercharged/turbocharged your engine, you would see gains in mileage, provided you maintained your driving style, i.e, a hill you drive up at WOT and can only maintain 45mph, that same vehicle with double the power will pull that same hill at 45mpg burning much less fuel as it is working at a much lower rate of work..
Perhaps thats not a good way of explaining it. It was explained to me once like this, if you have a box that weighs 25kg, you as an 18 year old could carry that load much more comfortably and likely haul that load further than yourself as a 13 year old (unless you're benjamin button) because you are a much more powerful person.
Theory End.
The problem with my argument is there are not a lot of blown jeeps in Calgary (that I know of anyways) to compare.
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they shouldn't be starved of air. there is a air-fuel mixture that the computers regulate. if you add more air you also have to add more fuel right?
more air + more fuel = more fuel
the 18 year old needs more calories than the 13 year old.
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you are kind of right al, but the 4.oL does not have a mass airflow sensor, they were calibrated at the factory to flow a certain amount of air, but air pressure does affect this. the factory just set these engines up to run under most circumstances, there are a lot of things that can be done to change their running characteristics but unfortunately if you are pre 96 (obd1 systems) they are hard to change. for instance i am running a 2001 intake on my 95 to improve airflow, but this is not really being used to its full potential because the engine management system does not know that it is now able to ingest more air. it did give me some improvements but untill i update my system to an obd2 and play with timing and injector pulse i will not use that intake to its fullest potential. therefore my gas milage sucks!
adding things like electric fans does change the gas milage but they are very marginal as the aerodynamics of any jeep is like said before a brick. little things like tire pressure or low rolling resistance plays a part too but just dont expect to gain much with little changes.
imho go ahead and change things and see what works for you, every jeep is different, what works on one might not work on another. but hey give it a try and share your results with others!
Pook
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put a slip tank in the back, then you'll go a lot farther on a fillup................... what mileage did you get? should probably include that. if its over 400K/tank you're getting GOOD mileage.
must be nice to own a jeep that you are conerned with a couple MPG instead of it 'making it to the destination'
thast what some of us worry about ;)
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Here is what I have done. Added a cone filter, changed the plugs to e3s, and added a taurus fan.
I spent around $200 for all upgrades. (I still need to build a better heat shield for the filter so maybe $250 whendone)
I have noticed better mileage/ and power than before; however, I changed the plugsbecause the old ones were fouled, I changed the filter because the old paper was full of dirt and the fan got changed when it was seized.
So to go from what it was to is now was a huge improvement, I did however notice the largest gains with the filter change than anything else, and the way I see it is this, even if you only save 5% per tank it will pay for it self by the end of the year or sooner.
my only caution would be to not invest large amounts for a small return as an example, I probably did not need to spend $75 on plugs for a 3.25% gain when I could have spent $30 for a pair that would given a 3% gain.
Other than check tranny, transfer, engine and diff oils, I noticed the biggest gains after having everything flushed and changed.
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imho go ahead and change things and see what works for you, every jeep is different, what works on one might not work on another. but hey give it a try and share your results with others!
Pook
Do you know what the term "every jeep is different" stands for.
"Most folks dont understand how jeeps work so they use the above term in an effort to generalize what they dont understand"
Anyone care to poll what 4 cyclinder jeeps get for milage on average compared to 6 cylinder jeeps?
Save yourself the trouble, they are nearly identical.
It doesnt matter what you do. The energy required to move the amount mass that is a jeep only changes marginally from jeep to jeep, based on slight variations in shape and weights.
No matter how much you screw with the old motors, you can only make them so efficient, which like Al said, after 50 some years the dealer got pretty good at.
A well maintained xj gets 14-20mpg depending on the driver. A well maintained wrangler gets 12-17mpg depending on the driver.
The difference? A bit of aero dynamics and 1000 lbs.
Do your mods because you want your mods. Modding for the soul purpose of milage on these is a complete waste of time.
At a tank of feul per week, Pooks mods would take two years to pay out on gas savings, and thats using junk yard parts, and a shitty filter that should never be added to any engine that sees off road use. All this goes without mentioning that the 3% gains over a well maintained 4 litre xj are more then likely mythical anyways.
Keep it well maintained, keep the weight down, keep it geared properly, and watch your driving habits.
The rest is snake oil.
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I disagree with this general statement....so if you will follow me on my fairy-tail scenario..
Fact: When I work near/at Fort Mac, I get noticeably better fuel economy then around Calgary. Fort Mac is also quite hilly, perhaps not as hilly as Calgary, but it is definitely not a flat landscape. Calgary Airport is 3553 ft above sea level. Fort McMurray is 1214 ft above sea level.
Theory: I have read that for every 1000 ft increase in elevation you loose ~10% of your power. A 200 hp engine will lose 20hp at 1000ft, and additional 18 hp at 2000ft, another 16hp at 3000ft, and another 7 hp at 3500 ft. In Calgary, a 200 hp engine makes ~139hp, but that same engine in fort mac makes ~180hp
Jeeps are severely underpowered, no one will argue that, however if you add forced induction (enter fairy-tale land) you first somewhat negate the 10% loss per 1000 ft as you are now pressurizing the engine, plus you add over and above. A normally aspirated engine is much more efficient at sea level vs higher elevations.
The stock 4.0l powerplant is starved of air in the Calgary area. If you supercharged/turbocharged your engine, you would see gains in mileage, provided you maintained your driving style, i.e, a hill you drive up at WOT and can only maintain 45mph, that same vehicle with double the power will pull that same hill at 45mpg burning much less fuel as it is working at a much lower rate of work..
Perhaps thats not a good way of explaining it. It was explained to me once like this, if you have a box that weighs 25kg, you as an 18 year old could carry that load much more comfortably and likely haul that load further than yourself as a 13 year old (unless you're benjamin button) because you are a much more powerful person.
Theory End.
The problem with my argument is there are not a lot of blown jeeps in Calgary (that I know of anyways) to compare.
You are confusing a boosted jeep with a properly geared one.
A 4 litre that is geared properly and isnt constantly shifted an lug will perform more efficiently resulting in better milage.
A boosted jeep just has the potential to use more fuel, and it will.
You can make minor improvements to 4 litre efficiency but its all starts internally. Until you get into cam profiles, and some head work, the rest is just bullshit.
Once you have the breathing efficiency increased, some add ons like a larger TB and headers will continue to help but still, with all that said and done, you are into 3000$ for 2-4mpg...........................................
Like I said, mod becaues you want to. Dont do it for milage.
Goes back to hub swapping for milage. 2000$ hub kit for half a mile per gallon. There's a 10 plus year payout ;)
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you are kind of right al, but the 4.oL does not have a mass airflow sensor, they were calibrated at the factory to flow a certain amount of air, but air pressure does affect this. the factory just set these engines up to run under most circumstances, there are a lot of things that can be done to change their running characteristics but unfortunately if you are pre 96 (obd1 systems) they are hard to change. for instance i am running a 2001 intake on my 95 to improve airflow, but this is not really being used to its full potential because the engine management system does not know that it is now able to ingest more air. it did give me some improvements but untill i update my system to an obd2 and play with timing and injector pulse i will not use that intake to its fullest potential. therefore my gas milage sucks!
adding things like electric fans does change the gas milage but they are very marginal as the aerodynamics of any jeep is like said before a brick. little things like tire pressure or low rolling resistance plays a part too but just dont expect to gain much with little changes.
imho go ahead and change things and see what works for you, every jeep is different, what works on one might not work on another. but hey give it a try and share your results with others!
Pook
This is not true either Pook. Both OBD1 and 2 adjust fule mapping via data inputs from the 02 sensors.
OBD1 is actually easier to modify via the use of an adjustable map sensor.
I've run piggy back tuners on my engines before. You can mess with all the mapping and timing you want on these things. At the end, its hardly worth the effort.
The only time I'd bother with tuning one of these is if you have detonation issue and dont want to run premium.
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;D Wow... I sure know how to start a conversation...!!!!!! I might try a new air intake and like some of you said.. keep it tuned up etc etc. I never did do the math on the MPG, but I got around 350 to 375 kilometers per tank. I did notice that the altitude seemed to make a difference. Thanks for all the advice. I plan to keep this rig fairly stock in regards to the drive line and never any bigger than 31's. Yes, she is a brick in the wind, but that's my Brick... one side note...!! upgraded stereo was a waste of money when running a Safari top at 110 kph...!!! %$#@ that was loud... but so much fun....!!! Took the top off through the Mojave.... much quieter...!! 8)
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it looks like most mpg comments have been made allready. there isnt much you can do with a jeep. they are what they are. i did the intake, electric fan, ditched the cat con and opened the exhaust. these 3 things helped the engine breath easier and with less load. did i get better mileage? maybe, not sure, i was too busy keeping the pedal to the floor cause it sounded cool. i did try to vary my driving habits to see if there was a change. and in the end i i couldnt tell. from hard city driving to highway cruising on o/d. i still managed the same from every tank.
the best you can do is keep your vehicle running tip top. the mileage you get is what you get. be happy.
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You are confusing a boosted jeep with a properly geared one.
A 4 litre that is geared properly and isnt constantly shifted an lug will perform more efficiently resulting in better milage.
A boosted jeep just has the potential to use more fuel, and it will.
You can make minor improvements to 4 litre efficiency but its all starts internally. Until you get into cam profiles, and some head work, the rest is just bullshit.
Once you have the breathing efficiency increased, some add ons like a larger TB and headers will continue to help but still, with all that said and done, you are into 3000$ for 2-4mpg...........................................
Like I said, mod becaues you want to. Dont do it for milage.
Goes back to hub swapping for milage. 2000$ hub kit for half a mile per gallon. There's a 10 plus year payout ;)
I have seen people add a blower and increase mileage. Of course they can burn more fuel at a given moment, but the engines work significantly less overall.
These jeeps are not going to be a 35mpg vehicle, however 2-4mpg is nothing to scoff at when you are getting 15.
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I think you are minimizing the effect that elevation has on performance.
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You can't control elavation. It has no relevance here.
Anyone familiar with FA knows that the less boost you use, the better your milage.
Lots of jeeps have been charged. They don't get better milage. They slight increase in efficieny gets spent in parasitic loss from driving the blower. The rest of the milage goes out the window using the 36lb/hr injectors because not many people spend 7 thousand dollars on a super charger with better milage at the forefront of their mind.
This bullshit has been beaten to death on every jeep board in existance
In the end its always the same. A bunch of nerds try to desk top mechanic/engineer 25 mpg out of a 4.0, while experienced users tell them not to bother worrying about it.
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A bunch of nerds try to desk top mechanic/engineer 25 mpg out of a 4.0, while experienced users tell them not to bother worrying about it.
So which is you......must be Tuesday. ;D
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The angry version of both of course.................
duh ,,i,,
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Everyone knows that you can't get 25 MPG out of a 4 liter unless you're adding Zinc to your fuel.
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I'm gettin 18 mpg with a cherokee with a 4.5'' lift, 31 bfg a/t's and a 5 speed (stock gearing) As far as I am concerned, I am doing pretty good ( especially since my right foot is a little heavy :D) Only mods done to motor are cold air intake, and ripped out cat with free flowing exhaust
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You can't control elavation. It has no relevance here.
Anyone familiar with FA knows that the less boost you use, the better your milage.
Lots of jeeps have been charged. They don't get better milage. They slight increase in efficieny gets spent in parasitic loss from driving the blower. The rest of the milage goes out the window using the 36lb/hr injectors because not many people spend 7 thousand dollars on a super charger with better milage at the forefront of their mind.
This bullshit has been beaten to death on every jeep board in existance
In the end its always the same. A bunch of nerds try to desk top mechanic/engineer 25 mpg out of a 4.0, while experienced users tell them not to bother worrying about it.
Im not looking to argue but have to point out youre statements are made with broad strokes.
elevation has relevance since we all live in it, and it robs people of the power it takes to move these 4000 lb lumps down the road.
Driving a blower robs power, turbos run on exhaust gas. The size of a turbo and impeller blade can be made to work on "low revving engines". 36lb injectors do not burn more fuel, they allow for more fuel to be used. If you have 36lb injectors running down the highway at zero boost you are not putting any more fuel through the system.
I put upwards of 100k on per year on a normal year using my personal vehicle for work. 2-3mpg helps a lot as I pay for my own fuel. A guy I work with has a 08 tacoma v6, he picked up 4mpg by installing the TRD blower and driving it for the purpose of maximizing the mileage. I saw it with my own eyes. Adding a "power adder" works. You can choose to believe this or disregard it, but it is not bullshit.
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You can't change the elevation where you live, so bothering to mention it is pointless.
We all know what air density does to power but it is still irrelevant for a couple reasons. Aside from the one I just described, people in lower elevations report the same milage we do. They just don't have the power issues that we do.
You can not compare a TRD engine to a motor that has not changed its design in almost 60 years.
Not to mention if you aren't using any boost then you are practicing a modified driving habit that will recognize mpg gains with or without the blower.
I have never known a facotry blown vehicle that had good milage. Nissan, chevs, rauch mustangs, all famous for how bad their milage is.
I know how injectors work. I actually build jeeps on a regular basis.
I've done all the internal and snake oil mods over the years. I'm not argueing speculation here.
I've done multiple air intakes, throttle bodies, piggy back tuners, an aluminum cylinder head, cam swaps, rollerized, electric fans.
I know what the results have been.
What have you done?
Take your 10 thousand dollars and go engineer yourself a blown 4 litre that gets you 22mpg.
Let us know how it turns out.
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I think to some it up it is best to say yes there are gains to be made, but the gains made vs money spent hardly make the effort worth it, as they will never be more than a 5% increase.
As I was saying before I only upgraded to more efficient components as the OEM stuff deteriorated, I would recommend changing to a washable filter such as a K&N (there is a bit of debate whether these allow to much dirt or not but since I see more pavement then mud these days I figured it was worth it) The fan swap was done more because I enjoyed the project and the cost was comparable to an OEM mechanical, as for gains maybe a bit but not enough to make spending the money worth it. The plugs needed to be changed, but I didn't need to spen on the E3s, new OEM's would have probably given the same increase for less money.
The most gain I ever noticed was after a recent tranny and transfercase flush and fluid change, this was worth every penny at about $120.
Wind will be more of a determining factor to mpg than anything else you will ever add to your jeep, Last year I emptied an entire tank from Calgary to West Edmonton Mall (fuel light came on as entered the parking lot) on the return trip I pulled into the driveway with more than half a tank left. the difference was a 75km/hr wind blowing from the north.
Bnine is right you could spend 10k on a 4.0L and get maybe 22mpg if your lucky, or you could swap motors out of a different vehicle and have the same result for half the price, or you can except the fact that you are driving a brick powered by a motor that uses the same technology as a 50 year old farm tractor.
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You can't change the elevation where you live, so bothering to mention it is pointless.
We all know what air density does to power but it is still irrelevant for a couple reasons. Aside from the one I just described, people in lower elevations report the same milage we do. They just don't have the power issues that we do.
You can not compare a TRD engine to a motor that has not changed its design in almost 60 years.
Not to mention if you aren't using any boost then you are practicing a modified driving habit that will recognize mpg gains with or without the blower.
I have never known a facotry blown vehicle that had good milage. Nissan, chevs, rauch mustangs, all famous for how bad their milage is.
I know how injectors work. I actually build jeeps on a regular basis.
I've done all the internal and snake oil mods over the years. I'm not argueing speculation here.
I've done multiple air intakes, throttle bodies, piggy back tuners, an aluminum cylinder head, cam swaps, rollerized, electric fans.
I know what the results have been.
What have you done?
Take your 10 thousand dollars and go engineer yourself a blown 4 litre that gets you 22mpg.
Let us know how it turns out.
I dont know why you are turning this into a pissing contest. I know you are well versed in jeep building. I have read a lot of your posts, lots of good info. I am not saying youre wrong either. Most ppl build engines with forced induction to make bigger power. That is fine.
I have seen the proof in buddies 4.0l v6 toyota tacoma. What can I saw, I saw the proof. At first, I didnt believe him, until he showed me monthly fuel receipts and the kms travelled that went with them (all as part of our reporting). He was saving money on fuel at a rate that is much faster than you would think. No it isnt the same technology, but the basic principal is the same, forced induction reduces the effect of elevation by pressurizing the manifold to create a more dense air charge. This gives your engine the opportunity to work less to complete the same task. As I said above, I was skeptical of all this, but the proof was in his numbers.
Right now my buddy has a vorteched 97 cobra, and when he is crusing down the high way he makes 0-1psi. The engine will only create boost under load conditions...thats why if you rev the snot out of a blown engine in neutral it will make little to no boost. No boost, no extra air, no extra fuel.
Factory blown shelby gt500's with a eaton blower (not very efficient) over a 5.4 dohc with that makes 550hp is rated for 32 mpg. I would not call that famously bad mileage, but that is my opinion.
Internals on an engine really only involve the crank, rods, bearings and pistons...with changing these parts alone, I dont know how anyone could expect a change in mileage, save for going to a stroker then I would say you could anticipate worse mileage. Head/Cam/Intake could have an effect, as the root of all your power and efficiently (as in where you make your power) comes from the head and the cam. Electric fan will save you 3-4 hp. K&N will get you 2-3 hp on a good day.
As far as "what I have done?" I built up a N/A 5.0l mustang a few years ago, while my roommate was building up his vorteched cobra while another buddy was building (and blowing up) a 3.8l v6 mustang turbo that made 442 rwhp on a dyno in Calgary. I have also ran a couple chevy Gen II LT1's into the ground, and thats about it.
I wont take " my 10 thousand" anywhere because I dont have a 10k go and frack around with my jeep fund. I use my jeep for work. I cant have it being unreliable.
Oh, and for anyone who is interested, I ran to Sparwood BC today to supervise some drill cuttings disposal, which meant I was on site for a bit, on a logging road that has a speed limit of 30, fumed around at the CCS landfill in Pincher creek and drove home only to put on 611 kms and burn 84.6L of fuel. That works out to 13.8l/100kms. I dont have cruise so it was all drive by pedal, and when on the highway I tried to maintain a speed of 115kph, but I fell short of that due to the hills.
This Jeep has a factory rating of 15.0l/100km in the city (19mpg) and 25mpg on the highway as per the window sticker.
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my jeep is getting 14.1L/100Km driving back and forth on deerfoot during rush hours. this with 120 pounds per wheel. usually 350 km per tank which is almost 50L
my conclusion is: our altitude make the air thin so my jeep has less drag which improves my fuel economy.
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I have to agree with Fiend, thank gosh the air here is thinner to help my tank to cut through it easier :)
In my XJ on 32's with a roofrack, air damming jerry cans on the rack, and a giant spare tire hanging off my bumper, and countless other heavy items in the back, I get about 14l/100km. Out of a 72 liter tank Im laughing if it goes for 450k....
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ok, that does it... i am buying electric.
see you on the trail.
http://jalopnik.com/5053639/jeep-ev-rock-crawling-the-electric-way
uhmmm, does anyone know if they have plugins at mclean?
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my jeep is getting 14.1L/100Km driving back and forth on deerfoot during rush hours. this with 120 pounds per wheel. usually 350 km per tank which is almost 50L
my conclusion is: our altitude make the air thin so my jeep has less drag which improves my fuel economy.
That is pretty good Al. I usually get about 16.5-17L/100km in my YJ.
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that's what I was getting until Dom got me some plugs, wires and distributor stuff. the old stuff was really in bad shape. still expensive though compared to my 5.2 and 3 L/100Km bikes.
although last year when i was living out of town and had the 80km/h highway drive i pumped up the toyos to 28lbs and got minimum 375 and max 400 Km to a tank.
and i rarely go over 3000 rpm before shifting.
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I dont know why you are turning this into a pissing contest. I know you are well versed in jeep building. I have read a lot of your posts, lots of good info. I am not saying youre wrong either. Most ppl build engines with forced induction to make bigger power. That is fine.
I have seen the proof in buddies 4.0l v6 toyota tacoma. What can I saw, I saw the proof. At first, I didnt believe him, until he showed me monthly fuel receipts and the kms travelled that went with them (all as part of our reporting). He was saving money on fuel at a rate that is much faster than you would think. No it isnt the same technology, but the basic principal is the same, forced induction reduces the effect of elevation by pressurizing the manifold to create a more dense air charge. This gives your engine the opportunity to work less to complete the same task. As I said above, I was skeptical of all this, but the proof was in his numbers.
Right now my buddy has a vorteched 97 cobra, and when he is crusing down the high way he makes 0-1psi. The engine will only create boost under load conditions...thats why if you rev the snot out of a blown engine in neutral it will make little to no boost. No boost, no extra air, no extra fuel.
Factory blown shelby gt500's with a eaton blower (not very efficient) over a 5.4 dohc with that makes 550hp is rated for 32 mpg. I would not call that famously bad mileage, but that is my opinion.
Internals on an engine really only involve the crank, rods, bearings and pistons...with changing these parts alone, I dont know how anyone could expect a change in mileage, save for going to a stroker then I would say you could anticipate worse mileage. Head/Cam/Intake could have an effect, as the root of all your power and efficiently (as in where you make your power) comes from the head and the cam. Electric fan will save you 3-4 hp. K&N will get you 2-3 hp on a good day.
As far as "what I have done?" I built up a N/A 5.0l mustang a few years ago, while my roommate was building up his vorteched cobra while another buddy was building (and blowing up) a 3.8l v6 mustang turbo that made 442 rwhp on a dyno in Calgary. I have also ran a couple chevy Gen II LT1's into the ground, and thats about it.
I wont take " my 10 thousand" anywhere because I dont have a 10k go and frack around with my jeep fund. I use my jeep for work. I cant have it being unreliable.
Oh, and for anyone who is interested, I ran to Sparwood BC today to supervise some drill cuttings disposal, which meant I was on site for a bit, on a logging road that has a speed limit of 30, fumed around at the CCS landfill in Pincher creek and drove home only to put on 611 kms and burn 84.6L of fuel. That works out to 13.8l/100kms. I dont have cruise so it was all drive by pedal, and when on the highway I tried to maintain a speed of 115kph, but I fell short of that due to the hills.
This Jeep has a factory rating of 15.0l/100km in the city (19mpg) and 25mpg on the highway as per the window sticker.
Nothing to do with a pissing contest and everything to do with the frustration of trying to talk to someone with new grad engineer brain.
People that think they are so smart it makes them stupid.
Of course if you dont load a 2500lb car with a 500hp motor it will get good milage. 500 hp vettes also get 30 some miles to the gallon.
These cars are aerodynamic, take minimal hp to go down the road at 60mph, have computerized transmissions that drop line pressure at cruising speeds, are less then half the weight of a jeep, have variable tuning, are completely rollerized, overhead cams, balanced rotating assemblies.....................................
People have taken high mileage motors and put them into jeeps. They still loose mileage because of weight, drivetrain losses, and aero dynamics.
You cant be serious bringing this stuff into this conversation.
Your freinds tacoma has variable valve timing, and whole slew of other tech behind it that makes it completely irrelevant to this conversation. Can you even fathom what the effect of variable valve timing is on power and effeciency for any engine?
Do you realize how arcaic that makes a push rod 4 litre?
Did you know that the 4 litre was discontinued because there was NOTHING the manufacturer could to anymore to get that motor to meet epa rags for mileage and emissions?
People have been putting blowers on jeeps for years. The tech is not there to afford any gains.
For you to come in here blathering about mustangs, tacomas, super chargers, and what ever other unrelated bullshit you can think of in an attempt to try and make some point that is not applicable to the 4 litre application what so ever is just annoying.
By the way, the only thing a k&n does on a jeep is dirty the motor up. The stock intake already flows more then the cam and head allow for in stock form.
Electric fans only provide a minor gain when they arent running. Which is almost never on a jeep. Whether you load the alternator or the fan pulley, it makes no difference. Modern clutch fans dont put a lot of drag on the motor until they engage.
All this ricer tech bullshit does not work the same on 4 litres, as it does on other stuff.
Im done here. A guy comes and asks about milage and a bunch of nerds start talking crap about stuff they have no clue about.
You spend the money, you do the work, you get your own god dam answers................
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Heres a solution to getting better gas mileage, remove the gas gauge so you don't have to watch it, really its a jeep if your worried about better MPG buy a honda.
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Alright..... wow...I am sorry I asked. I have said a few times.... I did not buy my Jeep TJ for the mileage..... I only asked if anyone knew of a few tricks to maybe improve the miles per tank..... so don't trash me and tell me to buy a Honda..... I'll drive my TJ Thanks. >:(
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so don't trash me and tell me to buy a Honda..... I'll drive my TJ Thanks. >:(
if you care about MPG you should though ;)
if you care about not getting stuck on a side road in the winter, or in a parking lot, being able to drive over speed bumps, and love to go topless,and camp places highscool kids with civics can't camp, drive a jeep ;) the benefits will outweigh the drawbacks if you love the jeep ;)
so chillax, its all good, take personal accounts of what people have done, etc, and make your own conclusions ;) you'll learn from experience like the rest of us, then you can give valid opinions too. no need to get angry, its an internet forum.
i'm gonna drive my YJ. with a 4L, it has 4:56s, 35s and a K and N. i think i got 18L/100km on the way down south. maybe 17 or 16... i don't care, cause the jeep made it, wheeled, and got home ;)
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I gave up figuring out my mileage a long time ago because it's a waste of time. It doesn't matter. If you save 2 mpg in your jeep, so what. It costs you too much to justify it. The only reason I tried to figure out savings for mods is so it looked better in justifying it to the significant other when spending the money to do it. Like Bill said, if you want to do it, do it, don't do it to save money because it doesn't work that way. Not with the TJ's.
As far as the sucker thinking he'll ever get as good as the window sticker say for mileage, forget about it. Those numbers are based on no load, no mods, no wind, driving less than the speed limit on the perfect test strip. It's a bullshit number, I've driven my brand new truck at the speed limit and have yet to reach that magical number. If 2$ a tank is going to break you than sell the damn jeep and get something else.
oh I almost forgot "I know a guy who knows a guy" that has a chev 3/4 ton with a 350 that gets 13 mpg if he's loaded or empty. Some vehicles are what they are, in the end, who cares. You buy a vehicle for a purpose, if saving money on gas is what that purpose is than there are certain vehicles that are bad choices.
Oh, and Parabs, if you're worried about mileage maybe you shouldn't have drove 115+ to Sparwood today down 22, probably was closer to 120 judging by how fast you were passing traffic (I was there).
This is what I think of this thread
(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu197/dac1979/postdumbxb3vi.jpg)
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Nothing to do with a pissing contest and everything to do with the frustration of trying to talk to someone with new grad engineer brain.
People that think they are so smart it makes them stupid.
Of course if you dont load a 2500lb car with a 500hp motor it will get good milage. 500 hp vettes also get 30 some miles to the gallon.
These cars are aerodynamic, take minimal hp to go down the road at 60mph, have computerized transmissions that drop line pressure at cruising speeds, are less then half the weight of a jeep, have variable tuning, are completely rollerized, overhead cams, balanced rotating assemblies.....................................
People have taken high mileage motors and put them into jeeps. They still loose mileage because of weight, drivetrain losses, and aero dynamics.
You cant be serious bringing this stuff into this conversation.
Your freinds tacoma has variable valve timing, and whole slew of other tech behind it that makes it completely irrelevant to this conversation. Can you even fathom what the effect of variable valve timing is on power and effeciency for any engine?
Do you realize how arcaic that makes a push rod 4 litre?
Did you know that the 4 litre was discontinued because there was NOTHING the manufacturer could to anymore to get that motor to meet epa rags for mileage and emissions?
People have been putting blowers on jeeps for years. The tech is not there to afford any gains.
For you to come in here blathering about mustangs, tacomas, super chargers, and what ever other unrelated bullshit you can think of in an attempt to try and make some point that is not applicable to the 4 litre application what so ever is just annoying.
By the way, the only thing a k&n does on a jeep is dirty the motor up. The stock intake already flows more then the cam and head allow for in stock form.
Electric fans only provide a minor gain when they arent running. Which is almost never on a jeep. Whether you load the alternator or the fan pulley, it makes no difference. Modern clutch fans dont put a lot of drag on the motor until they engage.
All this ricer tech bullshit does not work the same on 4 litres, as it does on other stuff.
Im done here. A guy comes and asks about milage and a bunch of nerds start talking crap about stuff they have no clue about.
You spend the money, you do the work, you get your own god dam answers................
As I said in a previous post, you know tons about jeep, as I didnt say in a previous post, You know significantly more about jeeps than I do...at that being said you seem to have made up your mind based on your experiences and will not entertain any further discussion on it, which is completely fine but it is disappointing for guys like me who are new to the jeeping world. What is even more disconcerting is the fact you reference numbers without research. A full weight zo6 corvette (505hp) is in the neighbourhood of 3100lbs, and is an old pushrod roller engine...7.0l of it. The supercharged 5.4l shelby is a cammer however it is hefty at 3800+ lbs w/o driver. I had my TJ on scale just outside of Claresholm, 3940lbs with me in it...these cars are clearly not less than 1/2 the weight as you stated, and I dont think an XJ or any other Jeep that came with a factory 4.0l weighs as much as 6200 lbs w/o a driver, but I may be wrong.
Absolutely variable valve timing is a huge development, and it sends engines without it to the stone age. I do also know the 4.0l couldnt keep up with emissions, which is why it was dropped.
My original statement on page 1 as it relates to forced induction is:
1)qualified as a fairy tale
2)put forth the basis of the theory on this subject
3)no where said it is absolutely certain it work out for a positive gain in fuel economy on a Jeep.
You responded saying people who build a blown engine dont have mileage at the forefront of their build.
2mpg on a vehicle that gets 15 is a 13% increase in mileage. If you get 20mpg, 2mpg is still a 10% increase...2mpg may not sound like much, but it is pretty decent number
No where did you say you have built, worked on, put thought into, or even know anyone who has tuned for mileage. Nor did you say what these jeeps were built like, IE 6" lift, 37" tires, etc. Lifting a vehicle makes it less aerodynamically efficient, and the higher rotating mass larger tires has also has a negative effect. So, not for the sake of argument, or because I think I am smart (but am actually stupid), I would like you to lay out in detail your personal experience with regards to the builds of each Jeep that suffered a loss in mileage. It would be great to hear about what doesnt work so some "nerds" like me can take those examples and not make similar mistakes, should we attempt to try "engineer" a build for better mileage.
Oh, and by the way, ricer tech is crap like cam gears, blue signal lights, the lowest profile tires you can get, a chrome 8" can with a 4.5" tip that sounds curious at best, and peculiar adjustable wings. I didnt think turbos and superchargers and heads/cam/intake swaps were considered ricer, but there I go again, thinking I am sooo smart.. :-*
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...Oh, and Parabs, if you're worried about mileage maybe you shouldn't have drove 115+ to Sparwood today down 22, probably was closer to 120 judging by how fast you were passing traffic (I was there).
...
:-[
This morning I did hustle a little bit, it wasnt a great day for mileage. ;D However there was i very pressing issue I had to deal with today, and sometimes you do what you have to do.
btw, what do you drive, err, did I pass you? I hope I was a gentleman about it either way...(I dont recall getting the finger anyways)
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No sorry, you weren't driving bad, just quick.... for a jeep. I'd usually be traveling a bit quicker down that stretch than I was but I was waiting for someone to catch up.
I had kept track of mileage when my jeep was stock, when I put on 31's, when I added some bolt on stuff like muffler and cai and then when I lifted higher and went to 33's. The best I ever got was with 31" AT's and the bolt on stuff but it changed from tank to tank and was a little dependant on time of year. Sometimes I got better than stock, sometimes worse. As for bolt on mods like the Edge kit, I think they claim 2mpg. It made a seat of the pants difference and added driveability but there was no visible sign of a gain in fuel savings. Most definetly not enough to save in gas what I paid for it.
My apologies for the rant in my previous post, but this topic is getting carried away..... and I was drinkin' :o. From my experience trying to save gas in the jeep hasn't really worked. Adding what I did to mine has given it more power and makes 33's with 3.73's liveable for now but I still plan on re-gearing. Sure adding a supercharger might help pull the hills better but I'd bet you wouldn't see any gain in mileage. You'd definitely not save enough to pay it off.
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Best MPG/Per dollar? Purple Gas...Maybe its a Saskatchewan thing...Lol.
(http://www.lambcity.com/images/LCC%20Hillbilly%20weekend%202004/hillbilly19.jpg)
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I get 21.5L/100L..... without the grocery.
I like it... and it's better then some of you round lights lovers! ;)
Gosh darn it I will run purple from now on... Where is Sashkequebec again?
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Dat's on de way to Rimouski, eh?
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As I said in a previous post, you know tons about jeep, as I didnt say in a previous post, You know significantly more about jeeps than I do...at that being said you seem to have made up your mind based on your experiences and will not entertain any further discussion on it, which is completely fine but it is disappointing for guys like me who are new to the jeeping world. What is even more disconcerting is the fact you reference numbers without research. A full weight zo6 corvette (505hp) is in the neighbourhood of 3100lbs, and is an old pushrod roller engine...7.0l of it. The supercharged 5.4l shelby is a cammer however it is hefty at 3800+ lbs w/o driver. I had my TJ on scale just outside of Claresholm, 3940lbs with me in it...these cars are clearly not less than 1/2 the weight as you stated, and I dont think an XJ or any other Jeep that came with a factory 4.0l weighs as much as 6200 lbs w/o a driver, but I may be wrong.
Absolutely variable valve timing is a huge development, and it sends engines without it to the stone age. I do also know the 4.0l couldnt keep up with emissions, which is why it was dropped.
My original statement on page 1 as it relates to forced induction is:
1)qualified as a fairy tale
2)put forth the basis of the theory on this subject
3)no where said it is absolutely certain it work out for a positive gain in fuel economy on a Jeep.
You responded saying people who build a blown engine dont have mileage at the forefront of their build.
2mpg on a vehicle that gets 15 is a 13% increase in mileage. If you get 20mpg, 2mpg is still a 10% increase...2mpg may not sound like much, but it is pretty decent number
No where did you say you have built, worked on, put thought into, or even know anyone who has tuned for mileage. Nor did you say what these jeeps were built like, IE 6" lift, 37" tires, etc. Lifting a vehicle makes it less aerodynamically efficient, and the higher rotating mass larger tires has also has a negative effect. So, not for the sake of argument, or because I think I am smart (but am actually stupid), I would like you to lay out in detail your personal experience with regards to the builds of each Jeep that suffered a loss in mileage. It would be great to hear about what doesnt work so some "nerds" like me can take those examples and not make similar mistakes, should we attempt to try "engineer" a build for better mileage.
Oh, and by the way, ricer tech is crap like cam gears, blue signal lights, the lowest profile tires you can get, a chrome 8" can with a 4.5" tip that sounds curious at best, and peculiar adjustable wings. I didnt think turbos and superchargers and heads/cam/intake swaps were considered ricer, but there I go again, thinking I am sooo smart.. :-*
For christ sakes
Shut up already
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jpthing.... is that you?
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I'm gonna get a throttle body spacer.... and a header... and one of them fancy K&N filters and and one of these (http://www.tornadoair.com)
It's going to be awesome!
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so your saying my engine needs more zinc?
i've heard 4L have flat tappets or something; why is the zinc needed? does it increase efficiency on the cam so as to get better mileage?
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I think my engine suffers from N.B.P.E...Therefore needs more zinc, to compensate.
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Zinc is that answer....but only when combined with one of THESE:
http://www.fitchcatalyst.com/details.php?prodId=4&category=20 (http://www.fitchcatalyst.com/details.php?prodId=4&category=20)
And then you should add a water boost hydrogen fuel cell. Just use that spare current from your alternator to creat hydrogen that you then inject into your engine :) You're guaranteed to get at least 60 MPG, and an extra 50 HP.
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For christ sakes
Shut up already
-=edit=-
Look man, Im not trying to be a dick, I am not looking to show you up or damage your ego, or tarnish your rep or anything. I have said that you know a massive amount about jeep, knowledge I may never possess. I give you props for all the work you have and the experience you have gained.
It is difficult for me to just leave it when you make an argument without backing up your statements, rather you just start with the nerds blasts and how you think this is all bullshit. If that is the way I conducted my self when I am working I simply wouldnt be working...that is my world. That translates to my home life. I can see you and I would likely never be able to have a technical conversation because I always ask questions that require the person telling me how it is to back up/prove statements, and you seem unwilling to participate in that type of conversation.
That is fine, Ill leave this alone because I can see that if I dont, it wont get left alone...
plus it is not a good thing to have my identity questioned when the questioner is asking my if I am "jpthing"
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jpthing.... is that you?
I am not "jpthing", nor an I an alternative personality of "jpthing"
I think that if I was "jpthing" I would say this absolutely will work rather than prefacing my first post with a phrase like "fairy tale world"
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I am not "jpthing", nor an I an alternative personality of "jpthing"
I think that if I was "jpthing" I would say this absolutely will work rather than prefacing my first post with a phrase like "fairy tale world"
You just sound little like him...
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You just sound little like him...
that is a damning statement.
ugh.
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I'm going to install some of these under my hood
(http://floridanature.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/squirrel.jpg)
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I'm going to install some of these under my hood
(http://floridanature.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/squirrel.jpg)
those only came in the base model wranglers. i think they held 4 of them. ;D
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I'm going to install some of these under my hood
(http://floridanature.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/squirrel.jpg)
I think they have to be really angry to get the best mileage lol
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I'm going to install some of these under my hood
(http://floridanature.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/squirrel.jpg)
I used to have 4 of these under my hood, and damn watch out when they got really angry
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A stroker kit will put some of these under your hood.
Replacement parts seem to come free with alternators as well.
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu96/esind/badger.jpg)
For better milage lower the jeep, put skinny tires on @ 80 PSI, and get rid of the transfer case. And you might want to try to find a old VW beetle to cut the roof off of and put it on the jeep for better aerodynamics :)
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A stroker kit will put some of these under your hood.
Replacement parts seem to come free with alternators as well.
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu96/esind/badger.jpg)
For better milage lower the jeep, put skinny tires on @ 80 PSI, and get rid of the transfer case. And you might want to try to find a old VW beetle to cut the roof off of and put it on the jeep for better aerodynamics :)
Badgers?? We don't need no stinking badgers!
I recall seeing the high PSI idea on Red Green. He also said the faster you go the rounder your tires get reducing the rolling resistance thus giving you better gas mileage.
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Badgers only improve mileage if you're driving an XJ. They need the extra room in the back of the station wagons.
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Also, always put it in neutral and turn off the motor on down grades.
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I think its only an advantage to turn your vehicle off if its going to be sitting idle for something like 40 seconds
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A stroker kit will put some of these under your hood.
Replacement parts seem to come free with alternators as well.
(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu96/esind/badger.jpg)
For better milage lower the jeep, put skinny tires on @ 80 PSI, and get rid of the transfer case. And you might want to try to find a old VW beetle to cut the roof off of and put it on the jeep for better aerodynamics :)
And he we go.... damn the badger resurrection. Thanks. :D
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I get the best mileage when I don't drive it ::)
Have you done the basics as stated?
-lose some weight (in the vehicle ;D)
-free flowing exhaust
-Better air intake system
-And new plugs wire etc.
You should notice a difference, but maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Wow...another "great" discussion.
Parabs, despite your diss, I feel your pain...it's really tough to have a discussion of an idea on this board without it getting kinda weird...I've just chosen to take it as part of the package deal because I have also met some really nice people on here and it's a great resource for local Jeep stuff. Just accept that this board has a different etiquette than most...
And as for me saying that my ideas definitely work, they do...rather than argue about it just pm me if you don't believe me and come look at my Jeeps...living, breathing, driving proof for those that are interested.
And on the topic of Zinc in oil...I find it very telling that many are still trying to make fun of me on this, but no one will contradict Corey Kruchowski (sp??) who posted up in my zinc thread that it IS a real issue. If you think it's BS go argue with him (no one has yet...)...or is it more of a popularity contest than a discussion?...I'm just sayin'.
As for the topic at hand a couple of random gas milage ideas that struck me while reading this are to lower the nose slightly so that the hood and roof are angled downwards or to construct a removable air dam for the front that could install into the front hitch rcvr or maybe an angled deflector on the hood in front of the windshield...removing the front DS for a long trip could theoretically save some gas although I"d be more inclined to do it to save wear and tear on the double cardan and ujoints.
I believe it was bnine who said the K&N filters are junk, I couldn't agree more, these things let dirt into your engine it's that simple If you have one get rid of it and no I don't want to argue about it.
For those that really want to save gas check out "hypermiling" although I think these fools are probably just doing damage to their engines with low oil pressure and lugging.
The best way to save on gas (if you are able) is to adjust your travel times to when there is less traffic...you get zero mpg when you are stopped and terrible mpg when you are stopping and starting.
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As for the topic at hand a couple of random gas milage ideas that struck me while reading this are to lower the nose slightly so that the hood and roof are angled downwards or to construct a removable air dam for the front that could install into the front hitch rcvr or maybe an angled deflector on the hood in front of the windshield...removing the front DS for a long trip could theoretically save some gas although I"d be more inclined to do it to save wear and tear on the double cardan and ujoints.
The problem is not just the front end, which your ideas are trying to resolve, but also the back end because of how square it is. The boundary layer as it leaves turns turbulent which will cause a vacuum muck like a semi trailer causes but smaller. Think rain drop
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True, but the front makes more of a difference than the back...the flat front creates pure simple drag, whereas the rear creates drag through turbulence, eddies, pressure differential, etc....
but ya, I`m down, ok, side skirts (detachable) , and a rear `teardrop tail`....unfortuneately will add a lot more weight than a front skirt or deflector.
Having spent many years building and flying rc planes, I`ve learned that the little things make a bigger difference than you would expect (for wind resistance, not fuel economy) such as (in an airplane) things like wheel pants, taped seams, fairings attached to everything, etc...so consider removing the passsenger mirror, those rubber blocks on the hood, duct tape over the door handles etc ...(joking).
On a more serious note, I would have to guess that the added smoothness and rigidity of the hard top would cause better fuel economy despite it`s greater weight...any thoughts?
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I've heard roof racks are not a good idea if you're trying to save money on fuel.
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I've heard roof racks are not a good idea if you're trying to save money on fuel.
I can pretty much confirm this in my experiences.
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i've heard from a friend with a civic that putting a big fin towards the rear increases gas mileage. something about the downforce decreasing the vortex behind the jeep due to the decreased angle of airflow coming off the roof of the jeep.
not sure how accurate this is. i can imagine its BS with a soft top because there's nothng really to mount the fin too
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i've heard from a friend with a civic that putting a big fin towards the rear increases gas mileage. something about the downforce decreasing the vortex behind the jeep due to the decreased angle of airflow coming off the roof of the jeep.
not sure how accurate this is. i can imagine its BS with a soft top because there's nothng really to mount the fin too
The fin would have to deflect air down to have a positive effect. If a Corvette doesn't need one neither does a Civic
I think the shape of the front of a vehicle doesn't matter too much. Its the way the air flows off the back.
Here's the proof, and its back by education.
A float plane will barely get out of the water and won't climb out of ground effect if it has a small boat strapped to it if the boat is facing forward. With the boat turned around (flat end forward) the plane will easily fly. the flat end of the boat creates a dead air pocket in front of it. Air flows smoothly over the front and comes off the pointed end of the boat smoothly creating less drag than if the boat was reversed.
Not real useful information, but something to ponder
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And on the topic of Zinc in oil...I find it very telling that many are still trying to make fun of me on this, but no one will contradict Corey Kruchowski (sp??) who posted up in my zinc thread that it IS a real issue. If you think it's BS go argue with him (no one has yet...)...or is it more of a popularity contest than a discussion?...I'm just sayin'.
Im not sure what the issue is either. The only mistake you made with the zinc discussion was recommending the rotella oils because the zddp has been significantly reduced over the years.
ZDDP is an issue with flat tappet engines. Of all the topics you've brought up here, there is no question that one is valid.
Everyone gets the same treatment from me. If you put something out there that is wrong, dangerous, or just plain stupid, I will let you know. If you get stubborn, and refuse to listen to common sense, and experience, I'll let you know harder.
It doesnt matter if you are brand new, or the president of the jeep club. Anyone can look over my post throughout the years, and see that no one ever gets special treatment because of popularity.
If you are wrong, I'll explain to you why.
If you are being stupid or stubborn, I'll let you know.
If you are right, I'll back you up.
Its very simple, and its definately not personal.
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http://www.allpar.com/model/cj/details.html
An aerodynamic Wrangler may be an oxymoron, but aerodynamics did play a significant part in the design of the 1997 Wrangler. Wind noise, buffeting and soft top flap were at the head of the list of aerodynamic concerns with drag a secondary consideration. The primary objectives were achieved and drag was also reduced by 10-12%, improving highway fuel efficiency. The hard top drag coefficient is 0.55 and that of the soft top 0.58 (by comparison, a 1994 Ram was 0.42 and a 1995 Neon was 0.28). Because of a need to maintain the basic identity of the profile, changes are subtle. Changes include:
•a refined shape for the leading edge of the hood
•addition of a lip at the top of the windshield header
•addition of rounded soft top and hard top windshield headers
•rounded windshield pillars
•removal of the upstanding flanges on the windshield pillars and windshield header with the soft top
By reshaping the leading edge of the hood and adding a rounded windshield header to the soft top, top flapping is minimized. These changes guide air flow to keep it attached to the vehicle envelope and reduce the turbulence that causes flapping. These refinements also stabilize air flow at the cowl plenum, reducing pressure pulsation inside the vehicle and making HVAC system performance more stable. Rounded windshield pillars also reduce buffeting and wind noise around the soft top side curtains. The windshield header lip and rounded windshield pillars smooth air flow around the windshield to minimize buffeting of passengers with the top down.
Looks like the design engineers have already thought of the whole aerodynamics problem just like they've already figured out the fuel vs power vs cost issues.
You could change the look of your jeep with skirts and air deflectors but you'd give your jeep a serious identity crisis based on the above excerpt. Sure the idea may be valid, but it's pretty dumb. Who on this site is going to run any of these ideas while turning 33"+ mud tires on a vehicle they built to take offroad with a build goal of more ground clearance also knowing they may get body damage which could be more expensive and more likely with added paneling. Depending on where you drive (city) the added weight may negate any fuel savings you think you're going to get.
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Im not sure what the issue is either. The only mistake you made with the zinc discussion was recommending the rotella oils because the zddp has been significantly reduced over the years.
ZDDP is an issue with flat tappet engines. Of all the topics you've brought up here, there is no question that one is valid.
Everyone gets the same treatment from me. If you put something out there that is wrong, dangerous, or just plain stupid, I will let you know. If you get stubborn, and refuse to listen to common sense, and experience, I'll let you know harder.
It doesnt matter if you are brand new, or the president of the jeep club. Anyone can look over my post throughout the years, and see that no one ever gets special treatment because of popularity.
If you are wrong, I'll explain to you why.
If you are being stupid or stubborn, I'll let you know.
If you are right, I'll back you up.
Its very simple, and its definately not personal.
I think you should look up what an explanation is. Your definition seems to include opinion, specifically yours. I asked you pointed questions in which you responded like a child.
Thanks for nothing.
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I have seen some vehicles with the little air "wings" on the back that push air down the back of the vehicle(usually on old suburbans and pos wagons) but they could help a little.
I think they were mainly to keep the back a little cleaner, but it could happen.
considering the weather we are having, try to get lots of big golf ball sized hail and that would increase the turbulance along the metal parts of the jeep allowing the air to more easily pass over the jeep, much like a golf ball.
but seriously, I think the best you can do, is have the vehicle maintained well, and run the tires at the "ideal" pressure for you vehicle(high enough to reduce some resistance, but not too high to wear the centers out of the tires or ride like a rock).
and remove the 30 pounds of dirt that have accumulated from all the fun over the years.
drive like an old lady could help.
with the larger tires on the jeep I get decent highway fuel economy as they are larger and I cruise at lower rpms, so skinny taller(within reason) tires would work(not practical for most, and looks odd), but it can help
I am just too lazy to take the roof rack off yet :)
cheers
steve
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I think you should look up what an explanation is. Your definition seems to include opinion, specifically yours. I asked you pointed questions in which you responded like a child.
Thanks for nothing.
I explained to you over and over why your modern tech, unrelated exapmles were not valid in this discussion.
Everything from engine design, to aerodymanics and drivetrain loses. The fact that you are to stuck in your own head to understand common sense is not my problem.
I even gave you an example of a a member of this club that run a supercharger and what his results were. I also gave you a club members name of a guy who worked on said supercharger.
So dont get pissy with me because I debunked your bullshit speculation and unrelated tech with actual experience and facts.
Get over it.
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I explained to you over and over why your modern tech, unrelated exapmles were not valid in this discussion.
Everything from engine design, to aerodymanics and drivetrain loses. The fact that you are to stuck in your own head to understand common sense is not my problem.
I even gave you an example of a a member of this club that run a supercharger and what his results were. I also gave you a club members name of a guy who worked on said supercharger.
So dont get pissy with me because I debunked your bullshit speculation and unrelated tech with actual experience and facts.
Get over it.
I asked you pointedly, did you ever build up an engine that was tune to maximize fuel economy.
You did not answer that. If you didnt ever build an engine that was tuned to maximize fuel economy then you are only speculating, which means you didnt "debunk" anything. I have heard about your actual experience, sounds like you have a masters at throwing wrenches and temper tantrums.
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I asked you pointedly, did you ever build up an engine that was tune to maximize fuel economy.
You did not answer that. If you didnt ever build an engine that was tuned to maximize fuel economy then you are only speculating, which means you didnt "debunk" anything. I have heard about your actual experience, sounds like you have a masters at throwing wrenches and temper tantrums.
Why dont you stop by and I'll show you how accurate I am with those wrenches. Dont start slinging personal dirt buddy. Thats bullshit.
I have done all the modifications on a 4 litre that are both performance and efficiency related except turbo and SC. But I do know people with both.
Only an idiot would spend the money and time building a 4 litre specifically for the purpose of maximized fuel economy.
As explained previously, it doesnt pay.
I run the most efficient jeep straight 6 on this board. Bar none. Aluminum head, rollerized, long rod stroker, header work, intake, piggy back programmed, high compression, premium fuel, hot spark pluges, low range cam, large throttle body, custom intake system.
Its definately an efficient motor, and there is little else you would do to maximize efficiency on a straight 6. But only an absolute idiot would build a motor like that for a couple miles to the gallon.
Just like someone that continually argues the merits of fuel effiency in jeeps after bolting a 100lb tire carrier on their rig and blowing past people on the hiway at a buck 25.
So seriously, pick your fights somewhere else. Your hypocritical bullshit is getting really old.
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(http://c.complex.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/gong-show-title.jpg)
Its pretty bad when we have a 6 pag discussion on how to save $4.00 on your next fill up...wanna save money...take the fcking bus to work and use the jeep for wheeling...or buy a Honda CRV ,its more aerodynamic..and tuned for efficiency..have fun wheeling it too, dont spill moms groceries though.
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Using Jeep and better gas mileage in the same sentence is ridiculous. ::)
Adding anything aftermarket to improve cost savings to maybe 2-4mpg is negated by adding aftermarket bumpers, winch and plate, tire carrier, bigger tires, body armor, underarmor, etc.
To the OP, there is nothing that can be done to magically make your jeep fuel efficient. Nothing.
i know of people that RENT cars to go on long trips instead of driving the jeep. That is a cost savings option.
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I realize this is an old thread, but had anyone tried a fast back soft or hard top and had any success with improved milage? Someone mentioned how milage was so poor cuz the back of the jeep was so square...I've seen some pics of fast back soft tops and really liked them, but wouldn't be worth the cost of there was no gain
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If you are concerned about your gas mileage, get something else....seriously.... honestly...
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I realize this is an old thread, but had anyone tried a fast back soft or hard top and had any success with improved milage? Someone mentioned how milage was so poor cuz the back of the jeep was so square...I've seen some pics of fast back soft tops and really liked them, but wouldn't be worth the cost of there was no gain
Ignore these guys, If I were you I would go to http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/) and ask them.
Dingman
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I'd love to read that one on Pirate... ::)
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Damn this was a 3 beer thread.....and go figure I actually learned something.
But I dun fergott it after the 3rd beer
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Also running huge tires makes your mpg go down same with running too small of tires, what kind of jeep you got? the 1997-2006 tj's should be running 33's cause once the tires start to build momentum it actually pulls you forward resulting in you using less gas.
Dingman
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I was glued to this thread too! Alas no beer! I'm not concerned about gas milage, but if I'm going to do something that I don't really need to do, like someone said, helps convince the wife!
Dngman, I cant tell if youre serious about the 33s...? The logic is there but I don't have enough mechanical knowledge to substantiate it
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No, hes just having a go at ya :)
I gave up trying to get gas mileage long ago, once I realized I drive a box on wheels. :o
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No, hes just having a go at ya :)
I gave up trying to get gas mileage long ago, once I realized I drive a box on wheels. :o
It's a BRICK, yo. Just ask all my thugs.... they call it a brick-on-wheels.
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I started this thread, glad we all got so much out of it...!!! I did improve the mileage on my TJ.... better air intake, better spark plugs, not a lot but it did push me over the 450k per tank compared to the 380 or so I got on the first trip down the I-15. Thanks for the entertainment...... by the way... love my brick on wheels.... lol 8)
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Figured he was joking! I learned to take every thing said on here with a grain of salt!
No one answered the fast back question....?
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Do it. It will improve the economy by decreasing the drag coefficient on the Canadian dollar. And make sure it was well lubed with bacon grease.
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I realize this is an old thread, but had anyone tried a fast back soft or hard top and had any success with improved milage? Someone mentioned how milage was so poor cuz the back of the jeep was so square...I've seen some pics of fast back soft tops and really liked them, but wouldn't be worth the cost of there was no gain
Aren't you the same guy looking to go up to 33's? Any potential incremental savings that you could get from ANYTHING you do to your Jeep to increase efficiency or fuel economy will be instantly canceled out (and then some) by modifications that make your Jeep trail-capable.
I don't know how many times it needs to be said...unless you just want a convertible with removeable doors and never take your Jeep off road, spending money on mods for fuel economy is just plain foolish. The things that you do to your rig to make it more trail capable are ten times better at destroying fuel economy than ANYTHING the best engineer in the world can design to improve the fuel economy of a Jeep. No matter how fancy your calculator is, it can't circumvent the laws of physics.
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Do it. It will improve the economy by decreasing the drag coefficient on the Canadian dollar. And make sure it was well lubed with bacon grease.
NO! You need to apply belt dessing to the windows, and make sure that you have high-zinc velcro for the closure flap if you want to decrease the drag coefficient of the dollar.
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Aren't you the same guy looking to go up to 33's? Any potential incremental savings that you could get from ANYTHING you do to your Jeep to increase efficiency or fuel economy will be instantly canceled out (and then some) by modifications that make your Jeep trail-capable.
I don't know how many times it needs to be said...unless you just want a convertible with removeable doors and never take your Jeep off road, spending money on mods for fuel economy is just plain foolish. The things that you do to your rig to make it more trail capable are ten times better at destroying fuel economy than ANYTHING the best engineer in the world can design to improve the fuel economy of a Jeep. No matter how fancy your calculator is, it can't circumvent the laws of physics.
Pfffffffft.........says you. The laws of physics do not apply to me..................my mom says I am special.......(not specialk special but special none the less)
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not specialk special but special none the less)
NOBODY is SpecialK special.
Specialk is so special he has his own telethon.
Specialk is so special that his short bus is a TJ.
Sorry kids, that's all I've got on short notice.
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water is more expensive than gas but are we complaining about that???
go to school get a good job and dont bother with gas milage.
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water is more expensive than gas but are we complaining about that???
go to school get a good job and dont bother with gas milage.
So is milk
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So is milk
so true, but it would be easier to find a dairy cow and milk it or drink water out of the tap then it is to make your own fuel, hmmm, new concept maybe, a vehicle that runs on milk!!!
I am sure milk in bulk would be cheaper, maybe if it ran on expired milk you could get it for free from the store when it goes bad, for free!!!
I think I am on to something, but I am worried the big oil companies might try to shut me down now!
haha.
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You better go off grid for a while after those comments Steve!
They're probably already tapping your phones and have 24hr surveillance on you and your local grocery store!
On a more serious note, The Nature of Things featured this guy who was running his deisel VW van in Nova Scotia on used canola oil he got from a golf and country clubs dip fat fryers. He would roll up to the loading bay once a week and take away a dozen or so vats of the stuff, for free! He said his exhaust smelt like fish and chips! Delicious and cheap! Maybe you guys were onto something with the bacon grease, just the wrong application, don't rub it on the jeep put it in the fuel tank!
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haha, so true
ya bio fuel is a good thing, and many people have been able to do that, more so for limited use vehicles such as tractors and lawn mowers, some vehicles but it is not widely available to the average person, which would be great, not nice smelling all the time, but could be much better for the environment.
just wait till you can get it from a pump.
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if you want to get far in this hobby, getting good fuel economy just isnt going to happen. what you can do is build your jeep to keep it light. avoid heavy bumpers and armor, or use aluminium instead of steel. gear your differentials to the tire size. change your driving habits when you're in the city and on the highway. any fuel you save can be burned up when fourwheeling. keep the tire and wheel combo lightweight. air intake, exhaust, electric fan, proper tune ups. all these will help a little with power and economy. but liek the other guy said, its not a huge gain.
jeeps are for wheeling, hondas are for economy. you choose.
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if you want to get far in this hobby, getting good fuel economy just isnt going to happen. what you can do is build your jeep to keep it light. avoid heavy bumpers and armor, or use aluminium instead of steel. gear your differentials to the tire size. change your driving habits when you're in the city and on the highway. any fuel you save can be burned up when fourwheeling. keep the tire and wheel combo lightweight. air intake, exhaust, electric fan, proper tune ups. all these will help a little with power and economy. but liek the other guy said, its not a huge gain.
jeeps are for wheeling, hondas are for economy. you choose.
Heavy steel
Heavy tires
Heavy foot
Maybe I should just put in a bigger gas tank..................that would increase my mileage per tank :o
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Maybe I should just put in a bigger gas tank..................that would increase my mileage per tank :o
Here ya go. ;D
http://www.thelongranger.com.au/jklongrangefueltank.html (http://www.thelongranger.com.au/jklongrangefueltank.html)
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I think elevation effects gas mileage. Driving up in elevation must get worse -driving down it gets better. so split the gas on a return trip with your freind and make sure your paying for downhill way. ::)
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Import one of these:
(http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/09/2011-jeep-wrangler-diesel24-1285793960-1285814530.jpg) (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/30/diesel-powered-jeep-wrangler-with-start-stop-unveiled-for-europe/)
I doubt you can tell from the picture, but it is a newly unveiled European Wrangler with the 2.8L turbo diesel. Click the picture for the article.
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Wonder what it would cost to have one shipped over here...
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This is what I use.....
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt257/jameylh/Milage.jpg)
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fastback tops dont make no differance just look better
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Im definately thinking that The Machinist is onto something here. The thinner oil will allow the engine to work harder with less internal drag, and the belt dressing if used on the wiper blades will keep them from buffeting in the wind. Of course less turbulance going over my brick shaped jeep will definately make a huge improvement in my mileage! What a brilliant solution! Im gonna go get me some more belt dressing tonite.
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Eureka! oh but don't forget the bacon grease for good measure!
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wow it's been a year and you guys are still arguing about this...thanks for some "great" entertainment!
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I parked mine for a few weeks now and haven't burnt a single drop of gas, beat that for gas consumption ::)
Or if you drive a cherokee the floor boards tend to go out, FRED FLINSTONE vehicle! :D
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fug has you beat, Justin.... 2+ years on 1 tank of gas.
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fug has you beat, Justin.... 2+ years on 1 tank of gas.
Just for some pp sizing, 9 years on 1/2 tank. ;D
Dingman
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Wow!
I wished my Heep could run on varnish like that! :D
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Wow, quite the post. I too run an OPEC machine on wheels. Over the last year I have purchased two non-Jeep vehicles and found that the alignment was WAY out of wack resulting in one of the vehicles burning through brand new tires in 13,000 km. The vehicle is a hybrid with low rolling resistence rubber. For the most part, people will occasionally get the front end aligned done but omit the rear end. One of the vehicles was practically going down the road side ways due to rear wheel alignment. This is all to say, when ever you purchase a used vehicle, check the suspension for any immediate issues then consider a 4 wheel alignment which, if out, will provide dividends in many areas. Also, have experienced my Jeep dragging a drum brake. These issues are not exactly sexy like blowers but are realtively cheap to fix and check. Just my two cents.
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does this friggin post have more views then the search function lol, or am i reading right?
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Heres another one. Though Im not sure how carrying this book in my jeep will improve anything... the book has mass, and therefore added to the mass of my jeep, it would only degrade my mileage.
http://www.quadratec.com/products/79000_100.htm
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For those of you concerned about your gas mileage in your jeep
(http://image.trucktrend.com/f/28637234+w750+st0/Jeep-Wrangler-Pedal-Go-kart.jpg)
If you are not
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGXN5q2abm0&feature=player_detailpage