Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Land Issues, Trail Projects & Trail Stewardship => Topic started by: Elsifer on May 07, 2006, 02:36:03 PM
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http://www.gov.ab.ca/home/Orders_in_Council/2006/506/2006_194.html
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anyone able to translate the legalease
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So what exactly does this mean then? No open camping at Wiaporrus? That's what it sounds like to me. What exactly are the Ghost Forest Reserve boundrys now?
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I'm still somewhat confused about some of this, so please correct me if wrong. This is how I see it....
No, This is not GAMP.
It's not an Access management Plan, it's simply an amendment from SRD to change the Forest Recreation Regulation Act (AR 343/79 to close all trails unless they have a sign saying "this trail is open". Some signs have already been installed, think they are brown, and have a picture of a jeep, and say 'Alberta government' on them...This amendment also adds the ghost area, and several others to the forest regulation act.
Anyone read the ALBERTA REGULATION 343/79 - Forests Act - FOREST RECREATION REGULATION ???
It very specifically says what you can and cannot do in pretty much every area where a trail exists in Alberta. It limits motor vehicles, horses in some zones, hunters, etc... It speaks to the many areas and more were just added...
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From what I can see..... From reading this http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/documents/Regs/1979_343.cfm?frm_isbn=0779735900
Waiparous - all trails are closed unless marked open
The operation of a motor vehicle is permitted within the Zone in areas or on trails that have been designated for that purpose by signs or notices in the Zone or by the written instructions of a forest officer.
McLean Creek – All trails are open unless marked as closed
The operation of motor vehicles is permitted within the McLean Creek Off Highway Vehicle Forest Land Use Zone except as otherwise indicated by signs posted in the Zone or by the written instructions of a forest officer.
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I had a look through the orignal document. the locations mentioned look to cover the Ghost and Waiparous areas. No camping or driving unless signed.
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There is no provisions for penalties either from what i am reading????
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Only Penalty I can see is...
A forest officer may require any person in a forest recreation area to inform the forest officer of the person’s name and address, or order any person to vacate a forest recreation area, (must be put in writing)
or do both.
You may not returm for 72 hours.
As per section 25.21
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Peter Straub pointed out, from the Forests act itelf....
http://www.qp.gov.ab.ca/documents/Acts/F22...isbn=0779724895
And from the Forest Act itself:
Contravention of regulations
50 A person who contravenes the regulations made pursuant to Part 3 is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of not more than $1000 and in default of payment to imprisonment for a term of not more than 60 days.
Also note that Forest officers have impounding capability within a Forest Recreation Area (which is a campground, I beleive)
49(1) A forest officer may impound a vehicle or other property and take it to a place designated by the Minister if
(a) the vehicle or other property, in the opinion of a forest officer, interferes with the management or use of a forest recreation area or forest recreation trail...
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I'm wondering how they are going to enforce this no camping issue when 30,000 people show up in a couple of weeks.
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The way I read this I think you guys might be confusing the entire area being banned from random camping. I do think its just the 1KM buffer around a forest recreational area. Here's a list of all the Forest Recreational areas across the province. The reason for this is people have a tendency of slipping into the campgrounds and stealing the fire wood and using the facilities then heading back to thier random camp site. With that buffer zone it makes it that much more inconveniant.
My oppinion mind you.
Trails might be a different matter though by the looks of the one paragraph.
http://www.cd.gov.ab.ca/preserving/parks/lrm/fpra/fpra.asp
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I don't think so. It states "The operation of a motor vehicle is permitted within the Zone in areas or on trails that have been designated for that purpose by signs or notices in the Zone or by the written instructions of a forest officer." within the Ghost FLUZ. It then defines the Ghost FLUZ later on. If you look at the areas covered that is all of the Ghost and Waiparous.
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.
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Atually Yeller I think your right, I re-read that part about camping and think that's what it means.
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Does this mean everybody is heading to maclean for the long weekend ?
Could we get several hundred 4x4's on the trails at maclean for the long weekend ?
Wouldn't that be fun :wink:
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Remind me if thats happening to stay home
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Here's an example of a sign that Xplorer posted on another tread...
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d119/CanadianXplorer/signs_003.jpg)
:cry: :evil: :(
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Remind me if thats happening to stay home
I think you are missing the point, Doug.
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i undertsand its the fact if everyone goes to maclean im stayin home cus it will be like waiparous on maylong
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So where exactly was that sign with the jeep on it posted anyway.
I don't have any pics of the signs with a Jeep but i've seen them. I saw them first on April 30th. I was in the same area on the 23rd but I didn't noticed them. On the 30th I took Meadow Creek trail and they were everywhere. I also saw them going to Margaret Lake.
I've seen the quad and Jeep (truck) signs. I have not seen bike signs. There are signs with only numbers on them also.
Scarry Stuff :evil:
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Darn it... my eyes are screwing with me again. 8) I must have been in the "sauce" when I wrote that!
Thanks for pointing it out Gunther ...I would have missed it.
I see the light... no,no... the Jeep.
...That's a picture of Jeep is I ever saw one before...
?//////?
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I have not seen bike signs. :
I don't think there will be bike signs, wasn't the plan that the bikes could use quad and truck trails, but they lost all the single track
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i wonder how long it will be before every one with a jeep, quad, or bike has a garage full of these signs.. could get awful expensive replacing them every year...
Also, in relation to this, what happens if there is no sign? i took a trail this weekend, and halfway through, there in an intersection was the first sign. does this mean i can drive on the unmarked trail, then turnaround at the sign, or was i in the wrong to begin with... (it was a VERY well travelled trail)
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I have not seen bike signs. :
I don't think there will be bike signs, wasn't the plan that the bikes could use quad and truck trails, but they lost all the single track
There are bike signs. In the Bar C area so far. The bikes got hammered by the initial proposal of GAMP but that community has been very politically active and in the 'right' meetings. Time will tell if all the input from the bike and 4x4 communities is being heard.
Tom
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RigPig,
IF and WHEN GAMP becomes official, you will not be allowed on any trail (no matter how well travelled) if there is not a sign. It will be our responsibility to ensure we ONLY drive on signed trails. Basically, everything is CLOSED unless posted open.
As for knocking down signs (i am sure that it will happen), my opinion is that this whole mess of a situation is designed for us to fail. Than the SRD can say
how bad we are and start shutting down the rest of Alberta.
Tom :evil:
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Its done and offical.
http://www.cochraneeagle.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=2406
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see with the like 8 KM's of trail they are gonna lave us its gonna get chewed to hell and SRD is gonna come back and say look what u did to the 8KM's of trail we left you why should we give u any more
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:cry: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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You can't believe everything you see in the newspaper. I am still waiting for an official notice of some sort.
. Just because a reporter who may or may not have other influences writes something does not mean it is true.
An Ad taken out in the paper by the gov't would be good. Or if SRD had postings on the website or handed out notices on the long weekend that would be good for me.
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Maylong waiparous shuld still be open correct?
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Maylong waiparous shuld still be open correct?
Correct.It will be open on the long weekend, and maybe a while longer.This info came from a Conservation Officer we met today at the bridge building.
I expect they will be out there on the weekend with more info on the upcoming changes.
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She is up and official. Maps below and all the rules...... Basically exactly what was shown last yesr.
http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/regions/southwest/ghost/maps.html
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Gamp has me so upset lately I could cry. I'm quite seriously considering selling my jeep, buying a decent little truck for the city, and a quad and trailer.
McLean is gonna turn into a disaster. Indian Graves, and any other area within 2 hours drive will quickly follow. My only hope is that the enforcement stays, and the GAMP process will be revisited and revised, with the new level or greater amount of enforcement!!
Keep the ravers, the litterers, and the ignorant a-holes out. And the responsible users in. All this stems from a lack of respect for our environment (from everyone)!
If SRD complains about the lack of resources, then take a hint from the John's law (solicitation of a prostitute can lead to confiscation of automobile); keep their car/truck/bike/quad; and once a year, auction them off, with proceeds going back into the area. This is just ONE idea I'm sure was raised at the stakeholder meetings, and some bureaucratic nonsense killed the idea.
Seems to me that the whole GAMP process was one giant bureaucratic, boondoggle with a hidden private agenda. I'm sure something else is going on behind the scenes, and its gonna take some time to figure it out. Once more the voice of the people, FOR the people, has been ignored!
Thats my 2 cents, and if you have spoken to me lately, you would have heard a lot more vulgarity not suitable for this medium.
If the gov't REALLY wanted to protect the area, AND keep the enviro's happy, they would have made it a park! Since they didn't, I suspect there is some other agenda at play here. No trucks east of the 40? Hmmm, what does that mean? Is industry planning something that the evidence of such activity is to be hidden?
What should happen, is the minutes and ALL documentation from EVERY GAMP meeting, be made public. Extreme pressure should be put on Minister(s) of SRD & Comm Development, the Ministries themselves, DFO, the MD's and any MLA's that live in that area; to release any and all documentation, scientific studies, internal communication, statistics, budgetary requirements/requests, stakeholder input, surveys, everything; related to GAMP. Make the process transparent (no hidden surprises), the people involved accountable, and to put a method behind the madness.
That's my thoughts...
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Thats why I bought a dirtbike. Still love Jeeping though. :oops: :cry: GAMP is a total joke, benefiting someone, not sure whom. Maybe the local politicians, with some weird, crooked plan. I dunno.
Makes me sick.
Darren
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i have compiled a map of the new trail system.
http://www.4wheeler.ca/index.php?showtopic=26396
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Gamp has me so upset lately I could cry. I'm quite seriously considering selling my jeep, buying a decent little truck for the city, and a quad and trailer.
I am going to get so flamed for this but....
You definately not alone. You are going to see alot of this. :? The smart ones have already sold their Jeeps while they were still worth something. Who wants a modified Jeep that you can't use? Why do you think we've seen so many for sale lately? I think it's quite obvious when I say, I love Jeeps...they are my hobby and my passion. Unfortunalety...they are a dying breed. I have made a swtch to another sport, as others have. I swithced to mountain biking. Seems to be alot more public acceptance. Plus, it's one hell of a work out and a real rush. See you on the trails...the bike trails that is. :P :wink:
just my 2 cents...which usually ain't woth s#!t anyways. :roll:
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Gamp has me so upset lately I could cry. I'm quite seriously considering selling my jeep, buying a decent little truck for the city, and a quad and trailer.
I am going to get so flamed for this but....
You definately not alone. You are going to see alot of this. :? The smart ones have already sold their Jeeps while they were still worth something. Who wants a modified Jeep that you can't use? Why do you think we've seen so many for sale lately?
just my 2 cents...which usually ain't woth s#!t anyways. :roll:
I don't think you're gonna get flamed at all Dan. Unfortunately wheelers just have to plan more, and count on driving a lot farther for a run. I'm kinda lucky I can use my Comanche to haul my dirtbike, and use it around the house to haul other stuff, unlike some other Jeeps that don't have a box or much cargo area (this is not a dig against other Jeeps, just a statement :D ).
Wheeling is not dead, its just changed a lot for the worst, and I hope McLean and other areas won't get destroyed now from everybody switching there exclusively. :cry:
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I was thinking the same, I have had bikes most of my life, I love bikes, I love wheeling my jeep.
The quad trails at waiparous have been cut in half, there is no single track for bikes in the Ghost area.
How much fun is riding a bike down a 25 foot wide "quad" trail.? The people on this forum, the responsible user's, we are not going to go off trail, we will tread lightly and follow the rules no matter what we are driving(even if we don't agree with them)
This is screw the 4x4'er week. It will soon be "screw the quad rider week"
Get fumed off, call your local politician, be respectful, just don't give up. Because if you do, the end will be in sight for all off roaders no matter if you are driving a Jeep, a toyota, a chevy, a yamaha or suzuki, or for that matter in a few years, a mountain bike.
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Thats why I bought a dirtbike.
Darren
Unfortunately you just lost HUNDREDS of kms of dirtbike singletrack trails. As a fellow rider, i have never been on a truck/quad trail for 2 years. Actually, i have never seen a truck or quad ever where we ride in Waiporous. So, you have 5kms of dirtbike trails left, you still feeling good about that bike?
Oh sure yoiu can ride the NEW quad trail sysytem and risk your life with the chaos that will be found on congested trails now.
Later
Tom :(
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FYI...
Goliath wrote on the 4Wheeler site...
The Alberta 4 Wheel Drive Association will be holding a 4 Wheel Drive meeting to discuss GAMP on Wednesday May 24, 2006 at 7:00pm held at the Deer Run Community Association
2223 146 Ave SE
Take Deerfoot South to Bow Bottom Trail
Turn Left on 146 Ave
The community Association will be on the left hand side of the road
We will be located in the gymnasium
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Wheeling is not dead, its just changed a lot for the worst, and I hope McLean and other areas won't get destroyed now from everybody switching there exclusively.
I think that's inevitable... :roll:
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So, to all of you who are griping and bitching about GAMP ... how many have actually wrote letters to the minister of SRD, your MLA, minister of environment, etc ? If you haven't done that, you shouldn't be complaining. Keep in mind that if this plan appears to be unworkable, the minister needs to be flooded with letters and complaints, and he will be obliged to make a change.
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So, to all of you who are griping and bitching about GAMP ... how many have actually wrote letters to the minister of SRD, your MLA, minister of environment, etc ? If you haven't done that, you shouldn't be complaining. Keep in mind that if this plan appears to be unworkable, the minister needs to be flooded with letters and complaints, and he will be obliged to make a change.
Nice sentiments but 100% not true. We have worked with the SRD for 12 years and recently in the last 2 years worked side by side in a trusting relationship. The end result of countless letters, meetings, donations, time, labor????
NOTHING
NOTTA
ZERO!!!!!
It made no frickin difference at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So everyone is entitled to gripe especially anyone that has donated time and $$$$ to AURS.
Tom :cry:
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The really unfortunate part here is that the ball is now rolling so to speak.
With the new restricted access, it's inevitable that the volume of vehicles using the McLean area will considerably increase now. With increased numbers of users at McLean, it won't be long until the trails become congested, and ultimately become more damaged due to the sheer volumes. This will only open another can of worms, and result in McLean restrictions in the future.
Glad I didn't tear the Jeep apart and do a complete rebuild now afterall!
Just my thoughts
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So everyone is entitled to gripe especially anyone that has donated time and $$$$ to AURS.
Tom :cry:
I second that remark.
Is it me or did the AURS mission statement change at the last minute? Seems like a diversion to misdirect blame for the failing on it's initial intention... which was.... wait for it... to save trails.
Somehwere along the way, the purpose of the organization was lost or changed.
User groups in support of the AURS had been given the impression that they (the AURS) will fight for the open trail. This is the impression I had of the AURS when I first go into 4wheelin two years ago. Two months before this GAMP announcement, all of the sudden the mission of the AURS had been re-vamped stating they are NOT a lobby group working to preserve the trail system, but a conduit for advocay for all user groups. WTF? IMHO a conduit for advocacy does not require membership dues. A lobby however, does.
These are MY THOUGHTS, not those of the CJA or it's affiliates, if there are any. This is a Public Forum where public opionin is expressed. You may be offended by my sense of honesty, that is your right. But i have the right to my sense of honesty. Intelligent rebuttle is appreciated, censorship is not.
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I'm with Tom on this one. We have been fighting for a very long time, but to no avail. Basiclly, they've told us how it's going to be, and that's that.
I'm going to say this once, and only once...(I'm gonna get banned for this one)
The trails are chewed to crap, camp sites left after May long have been trashed, barns burned down, live trees cut down, oil and chemical spills one the ground, people washing their rigs on the rivers and streams constant new trails being made, bridges being destoyed, fences being cut down and used for fire wood. Is it from you or me? Maybe not, but we all had something to do with it. Anyone who says different is a liar. We may all be better educated now, but it's too late. The damage has been done. There will always be someone to ruin it for everyone else. It's human nature. Use the crap out of something until there is nothing left.
I haven't been out for a maylong (or any long weekend for that matter) for years. Why? Because what I see out there absolutely sickens me. I can barely stand to watch the news after a long weekend. I DO NOT WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH ANY OF THESE YA-HOO'S.
I guess what I'm saying is that, it has been a long time comming, and now that it's here...suck it up. Be thankful there is anything left. I can't even access one of my favoirte hiking trails that I have be hiking and biking since I was a kid. :roll:
Now, go to Maclean, chew it up, rape and pillage and use the hell out of it, cause you know it's next. DON"T FORGET TO POST PICS, SMART GUY'S!!!!
Have a good weekend. :evil:
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Dan,
i have been here since 2000. There is night and day differnce on Long Weekends especially the last two May Longs (which really is the 'best of the worst").
Education was working and campsites were clean, yes almost 95% of sites in random camp areas at Maclean and Waiporous. i was impressed. Peer pressure and the internet have helped that. i actually rode all last May Long and did many truck trails (now known as Quad trails) and saw very little chaos. Other Long Weekends are pure joy out there.
However, there is always the bad seed and this is my gripe....where is the enforcement????
i spoke with Rick Blackwood Wed morning. We had a "nice" chat. There will be a huge enforcement presense this weekend in the Ghost. i suggested that Rick make sure the RCMP, who will actually be in the bush this year and not just on the 940, bring portable breathalizers and do stop checks at 4 corners. Enough is enough with the 20% bad apple crowd.
Am i suprised? Absolutely, they SRD tricked us this whole time and kept 200+kms of trails for us if we behave :roll: Like nice timing on the release during the BUSIEST weekend out there. Argggghhhhh!
Greg, re AURS: i joined because the mantra was this" Join the AURS as the ONLY multiuser group fighting to keep your trails open!"
Yep, they changed to PURE Stewardship before GAMP was finalized. There was not a membership vote. A4WDA was taking over the 4x4 advocacy role.
If you are pure Stewardship than this is how it works......
Government " Please go and close 100kms of trails"
AURS " OK, we will get our membership to do that"
But if you ask WHY? than you have become an ADVOCATE. So as far as i can see you can not realistically be stewardship without some advocacy. AURS believes it can be just stewardship only.
Bye
Tom
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Dan,
i have been here since 2000. There is night and day differnce on Long Weekends especially the last two May Longs (which really is the 'best of the worst").
Education was working and campsites were clean, yes almost 95% of sites in random camp areas at Maclean and Waiporous. i was impressed. Peer pressure and the internet have helped that. i actually rode all last May Long and did many truck trails (now known as Quad trails) and saw very little chaos. Other Long Weekends are pure joy out there.
This is like tell a child "you're grounded"
The child is going to be as good as pie to try and heve the grounding reversed. The next day, they're back to their old selves.
Last year was "better" because it was no longer a threat..it was reality.
The SRD doesn't care about the last two years...they care about the last 10 or 20. Their minds were already made up.
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Agreed, but with no enforcement we had very little chance of success.
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Think they care? :roll:
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Thanks Tom
Keener,
there isnt a poster in here that hasnt devoted time, money, and hard work at one time of another towards this cause.
Fact of the matter is, everything we did went ignored. They had a plan in mind. Regardless of what we said, or did, it was ignored.
There so many options available that they ignored.
Back country vehicle registration as user fees.
Banning random camping to keep the raves, teenagers, and yahoos under control.
Trail adoption.
Open unless posted closed.
The list is endless. They just dont care.
As for those who quit a hobby because they have drive a little farther, thats up to them. Obviously not that into it in the first place.Thats fine and their perogitive.
There are wheelers all over north america that have to drive 6 hours minimum to go wheeling. And people drop the hobby they supposedly love because one spot 45 minutes from their door has been restricted?
I will still be wheeling. Im to lazy to pedal a mountain bike, and to little to push a 700 pound quad off of my broken arse :D :D
lol, I bought a 1 ton tow rig to make longer trips easier.
Anyway, dont be to discouraged. Things will work out eventually.
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"As for those who quit a hobby because they have drive a little farther, thats up to them. Obviously not that into it in the first place.Thats fine and their perogitive.
There are wheelers all over north america that have to drive 6 hours minimum to go wheeling. And people drop the hobby they supposedly love because one spot 45 minutes from their door has been restricted? "
I just took a trip out west of Sundre on some forestry roads todayto scope out some camping and wheeling spots and it is way nicer up there. Instead if trees and dirt, it's trees and grass. Nice and green everywhere, lot's of people random camping (but not over crowded) and seems to be alot of trails (just have to drive a little to get to them) and some real nice camping spots I found. I don't know why I've been going to Wiapourus, cause it's only 2 hours from my door to the area I went today.
Kel
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This has been my thought all along. I wasn't about to waste my time and money fighting an unbeatable battle. I will spend alittle more money and I will burn alittle more gas getting to where I need to go, but I'm not giving up wheeling just yet. You can't fight city hall.
"As for those who quit a hobby because they have drive a little farther, thats up to them. Obviously not that into it in the first place.Thats fine and their perogitive.
There are wheelers all over north america that have to drive 6 hours minimum to go wheeling. And people drop the hobby they supposedly love because one spot 45 minutes from their door has been restricted? "
I just took a trip out west of Sundre on some forestry roads todayto scope out some camping and wheeling spots and it is way nicer up there. Instead if trees and dirt, it's trees and grass. Nice and green everywhere, lot's of people random camping (but not over crowded) and seems to be alot of trails (just have to drive a little to get to them) and some real nice camping spots I found. I don't know why I've been going to Wiapourus, cause it's only 2 hours from my door to the area I went today.
Kel