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Author Topic: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.  (Read 20915 times)

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Offline jpthing

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How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« on: February 09, 2010, 10:13:31 AM »
Who doesn't like to save $$?

Over the years I have chewed through many parts on the accsessory drive such as idler pulleys, alternators, and to a lesser extent, power steering pumps and fan clutches.

For those who may be interested I will share some of what I have learned.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010, 09:19:22 PM by SwampSinger »
'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 10:27:24 AM »
Tighter is not always better. The "proper" spec for tightness on a serpentine belt is pretty frickin tight...this is because shops and pro techs want to compensate for possible stretch which may occur, and because they must select a setting which will basically never slip for a long time...because people get fumed when their vehicle makes horrible squealing noises after they have had it fixed.  The problem is that having the belt tighter increases wear on all of the bearings including those in the bottom end of the engine. My solution? I set the belt to the loosest setting where it seems like it will work...you can try forcing an idler to slip by hand to help you judfge. Then I try the engine. If it seems ok (no squealing) I leave it as is. If it squeals a little I try a bit of belt dressing. If it still squeals, I tighten the belt a little. For me the perfect setting is where it almost never squeals but occasionally will give a brief squeal within the first minute on a cold morning.  Basically, my point could be summed up like this: If it's too tight, you will ruin components. If it's too loose it will squeal and require two wrenches and 4 minutes to adjust. which side would you rather err on???


'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 10:40:31 AM »
The next thing is Idler pulleys. The other day, before the open run I figured it would be a good Idea to go to NAPA and pick up a couple replacements since the ones on my TJ came with the engine and had a little wiggle (bearing play). So I go get two pulleys and they were.....wait for it....OVER $50 EACH!!!....with my discount!!!! And made in China!! Can you guess where my next stop after NAPA was? Yes that's right, Princess Auto. With the new pulleys in hand, I went to PA and selected two new bearings which matched...they were $4.49 each. 4 minutes work with the press and my old pulleys had new bearings...and I had $100 more after I returned the pulleys to NAPA.

Some points to ponder:
Are these bearings as good as the "real" ones? I don't know, only time will tell. The factory bearings were made in Canada, so I doubt the new ones are as good as those, but the aftermarket NAPA were made in China, as were the PA bearings, so they may be quite similar in quality. A much better quality bearing could be sourced for around $10.

Can you do this without a press? I don't know but it was really easy to press the bearings so I would imagine it could be done with a socket and a hammer.

Why am I so cheap? Well, I'm a Jeep bastard, for starters.
'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline X-Treme

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 12:36:28 PM »
Being a licensed mechanic, I just thought i'd let you know that "belt dressing" is just about the worst thing you can put on a belt. If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it. Fix THAT problem.

AND..... "belt dressing" of ANY kind should NEVER EVER be put on a "serpentine" style belt. (Micro "V")

Offline dubbleJs

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 05:58:51 PM »
Def some good food for thought Boone!
'91 XJ - 3" procrap - cutout for 33" MT's  - More and more dents every run...Sold.
'98 XJ - Lifted, locked and lovin' it

Offline i_go_commando

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 10:44:46 PM »
i prefer old dutch cleanser or other powedered abrasive soap for sinks for cleaning belts
1973 jeep commando -amc 360, 727,203/208, waggy d 44 and amc20- soa, OBA- on hiatus
1958 fc 170 cabover quad cab 3/4 pickup.continetal engine/ 700r4/ dana 300 current project

Offline hps4evr

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2010, 10:58:06 PM »
Being a licensed mechanic, I just thought i'd let you know that "belt dressing" is just about the worst thing you can put on a belt. If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it. Fix THAT problem.

AND..... "belt dressing" of ANY kind should NEVER EVER be put on a "serpentine" style belt. (Micro "V")

X2!!!   i never use the stuff. the belt needs to be dry. and adjusted properly. not super tight but tight enough that it wont make noise and it wont slip. a slipping belt can cause issues with power steering, cooling, and charging systems.
YJ=Y’all Jealous

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 10:29:55 AM »
Being a licensed mechanic, I just thought i'd let you know that "belt dressing" is just about the worst thing you can put on a belt. If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it. Fix THAT problem.

AND..... "belt dressing" of ANY kind should NEVER EVER be put on a "serpentine" style belt. (Micro "V")

Ya I've heard that from some of the pro crowd but I've had very good luck with it.

I'm not really looking for argument here, Just sharing what has worked for me.

And when you use belt dressing, the belt is "dry" . In my experience all it really does is provide a more grippy, less slippy surface. It is sticky for an hour or so but after that there is no visible trace...just a grippy belt.  Again, just trying to share what has worked for me.

And hps4evr, uh yeah, no duh, slipping belts are bad (thanks, I was wondering about that). I'm not advocating slipping belts, just running them a little looser than what is typical spec.

Honestly, guys I am a member of nearly a hundred forums on topics ranging from cars and trucks to R/C cars, planes and helis to refrigeration equipment, fitness equipment and appliance repair, various types of electronics, and so on. It seems to me that on this site I am more likely to be shot down for saying what has worked for me than on most of the others.

You guys who are pro techs or whatever and know better than me: You don't have to follow my advice. You don't even have to read my posts. The fact is, however that I happen to know that there are a lot of guys on here who have only the most basic knowledge of auto mechanics,(and in many cases, that's being generous),  I have met some of them and helped them fix their rigs on more than one occasion. My tips are for those who appreciate them.

And Finally. X-treme, I do not limit myself by what something is "for". If I did, Iwould not have a hockey puck body lift, I would not have oversized tires,nor would I  have S-10 leafs and explorer shocks in the rear of my XJ. And as for your comment "If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it fix that problem" well, yeah, if you read my post you would know the reason too: the belt is loose. On purpose. That's the point. If it squeals more than very occasionally, tighten it. That was my advice.  And don't just parrot the party line...If you're going to say belt dressing should "NEVER EVER" be used on a serpentine belt (in capitols no less) don't you think that you should at least give a reason for your belief? And don't say that it says so on the package or they tought you that in school, I mean an actual reason...

And why is it that only one person who is an actual friend of mine chimed in with anything positive? I spent my time and energy trying to help those who don't know, just to be contradicted by those who think they do? Doesn't exactly encourage the open exchage of ideas. Especially considering that it would seem we agree on 95% of my post, but the replyers just want to focus on the belt dressing....what about the rest of what I wrote? Or are posters just looking for something they disagree with to respond to? So they can be "right"?

Anyhow I'm NOT a pro automotive tech, but I own a company which provides both warranty (factory authorized) and non warranty service for several kinds of mechanical and electronic items. I train technicians in fields that are not tought at SAIT, where I have to invent the answers to questions. We have no books to refer to. We have no teachers to ask. We just have to figure it out. I have been doing this type of work for 15 years now, and along the way, I've learned a few things. I truly enjoy helping people with their rigs, especially when I know a cheap way to do something that most people think is expensive.

 If no one appreciates my posts, perhaps I should go back to spending more time on NAXJA or elsewhere.


'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline X-Treme

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 11:46:57 AM »
Ya I've heard that from some of the pro crowd but I've had very good luck with it.

I'm not really looking for argument here, Just sharing what has worked for me.

And when you use belt dressing, the belt is "dry" . In my experience all it really does is provide a more grippy, less slippy surface. It is sticky for an hour or so but after that there is no visible trace...just a grippy belt.  Again, just trying to share what has worked for me.

And hps4evr, uh yeah, no duh, slipping belts are bad (thanks, I was wondering about that). I'm not advocating slipping belts, just running them a little looser than what is typical spec.

Honestly, guys I am a member of nearly a hundred forums on topics ranging from cars and trucks to R/C cars, planes and helis to refrigeration equipment, fitness equipment and appliance repair, various types of electronics, and so on. It seems to me that on this site I am more likely to be shot down for saying what has worked for me than on most of the others.

You guys who are pro techs or whatever and know better than me: You don't have to follow my advice. You don't even have to read my posts. The fact is, however that I happen to know that there are a lot of guys on here who have only the most basic knowledge of auto mechanics,(and in many cases, that's being generous),  I have met some of them and helped them fix their rigs on more than one occasion. My tips are for those who appreciate them.

And Finally. X-treme, I do not limit myself by what something is "for". If I did, Iwould not have a hockey puck body lift, I would not have oversized tires,nor would I  have S-10 leafs and explorer shocks in the rear of my XJ. And as for your comment "If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it fix that problem" well, yeah, if you read my post you would know the reason too: the belt is loose. On purpose. That's the point. If it squeals more than very occasionally, tighten it. That was my advice.  And don't just parrot the party line...If you're going to say belt dressing should "NEVER EVER" be used on a serpentine belt (in capitols no less) don't you think that you should at least give a reason for your belief? And don't say that it says so on the package or they tought you that in school, I mean an actual reason...

And why is it that only one person who is an actual friend of mine chimed in with anything positive? I spent my time and energy trying to help those who don't know, just to be contradicted by those who think they do? Doesn't exactly encourage the open exchage of ideas. Especially considering that it would seem we agree on 95% of my post, but the replyers just want to focus on the belt dressing....what about the rest of what I wrote? Or are posters just looking for something they disagree with to respond to? So they can be "right"?

Anyhow I'm NOT a pro automotive tech, but I own a company which provides both warranty (factory authorized) and non warranty service for several kinds of mechanical and electronic items. I train technicians in fields that are not tought at SAIT, where I have to invent the answers to questions. We have no books to refer to. We have no teachers to ask. We just have to figure it out. I have been doing this type of work for 15 years now, and along the way, I've learned a few things. I truly enjoy helping people with their rigs, especially when I know a cheap way to do something that most people think is expensive.

 If no one appreciates my posts, perhaps I should go back to spending more time on NAXJA or elsewhere.





To make you feel better........ I think that your PA bearing idea is a FANTASTIC (notice the capitals) one.

Belt dressing of any kid used on micro v belts causes them to separate, shread, peel, and all kinds of other issues. As well it REALLY plugs up the grooves in the pullies.

Offline Spinalguy

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 12:30:06 PM »
jpthing,
i appreciate your input.  8)
My new to me CJ has the belt squeal a little when i stomp on it. Other than that it is quiet.
i will be using your tips.
Thanks
sent from my old school rotary dial phone.

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 01:51:51 PM »
jpthing,
i appreciate your input.  8)
My new to me CJ has the belt squeal a little when i stomp on it. Other than that it is quiet.
i will be using your tips.
Thanks

well now I just feel all warm n fuzzy...your welcome!
'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline cLAY

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 04:55:42 PM »
X2 on the bearing replacement. I've been doing this on the Chev pickups at work as well as my own stuff. The bearing is a really common one. Get mine from Transmission supply just cause its convenient for me.  Never actually looked to see where it was made.

X2 on the belt dressing. Bad stuff and rarely does it actually last more than a week. If you are using it then there is something else wrong. Bad adjustment, old/glazed belts, improper belt size/width/groove depth etc. For serpentine belts I try to always get the Goodyear Gatorbacks from NAPA. I've had trouble with cheaper belts slipping.

For tension I put belts pretty tight and never had a problem. Most of my bearing replacements are actually on vehicles with the spring loaded tensioners which don't have an adjustment. Only ever had to do the one on my '89 XJ once in the over 100,000kms I put on it.

As far as getting criticized goes I see the forums and the internet in general as a big discussion. Don't expect to put your thoughts on the net and have them taken for gospel and not questioned. Personal attacks are never cool but everyone's got an opinion and I must say my instructors at SAIT had some pretty nasty ones regarding belt dressing. Something along the lines of "only crooked shops use it". NOT calling you crooked just trying to pass along the knowledge I gained at SAIT. If the stuff works for you, keep using it but I feel obliged to present the other side of the discussion for others that want to try it so they can make an educated decision.
..

'93 ZJ, 5.2L, lifted/locked/36s..<gone>
'98 5.9er 4.10s,locked,LA,WJ knuckles

Offline rocnrol

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 08:30:03 PM »
well........ iam not going to be as nice as some of the other people that have responded to your post. your an idiot. so yes, you and your regurgitated, recycled Internet tec crap from "nearly a hundred forums" can go back to NAXJA. the very people you say you are trying to help with this type of Internet techno crap are the ones who will be hurt the most, for the very reasons you say, they don't know enough to know better. if you are really out there putting wrenches to other peoples jeeps, i highly recommend they take them to a professional to get looked over. you don't even have the first clue as to what makes a belt work, let alone on how, OR WHY, a belt tension has to be set. that makes you reckless and arrogant beyond belief.

i am now enraged to the point i cant even carry this on further at this point........................................................

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 08:31:12 PM »
It sounds like the consensus is that the belt dressing is a bad idea...I will keep this in mind. I've really never used more than a quick (1-second) squirt on the moving belt, so maybe this is why it has worked for me. Anyway, a slight tighten would do just as well in any case.

And I'm all for discussion and don't mind being told I'm wrong, I just prefer a more civil tone.  I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I'd rather have an interesting discussion of a subject than just be told I'm wrong.

I have recently devised a unique rear driveshaft setup using all common throwaway parts that allows lift up to 4.5" on a XJ with minimal vibes, and no SYE required. Also allows removal of rear driveshaft without losing atf trom t-case. Also allows full droop without yoke ears colliding without t-case drop or with minimal t-case drop. I was thinking of doing a mini-writeup of it...should I bother?

'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline rocnrol

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 08:36:00 PM »
shut-up