Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => General Talk => Topic started by: WhiteOut on March 15, 2009, 11:18:00 PM
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A buddy of mine and I were discussing how poorly some people treat the trails in Alberta and that abuse of the trails is becoming a huge problem. The solution that we came up with is that the most at risk trails would be closed to all OHV use unless you were a member of a club registered with the government, or on a run with the club. Basically what would happen is that the club would be issueded passes, like the ones issued to us by SRD for tail survey, and these would be displayed on the vehicle while on the trails.
We also thought that increased policing would be a huge help, with the increased cost supported by the auction of confiscated vehicles. Im not sure what the penalty is right now for being offtrail but having your vehicle taken and sold is a bigger deterant than a small fine.
I know that people are going to say its unfair to those who wheel responsibly and are not a member of a club. But there should be no issue with joining one of the clubs in the province if you plan on being a responsible wheeler.
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Good idea, but that means that the Gov'ment will have to train and outfit more officers that they are already having a hard time finding. I wouldn't mind, as I am unemployed, and love wheelin'. But, I am guessing that they would be working mostly weekends, and that was suppose to be for wheelin'.
I think that you are on the right track, Fras, and it very well could come down to that option.
What about purchasing a "day-pass" to OHV areas?
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its never gunna happen theres no possibly way they can limit access by making you buy a pass to wheel it will never happen
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last time I checked there was some sort of a gate, or narrowing of the road into OHV areas. set up a concession stand there, and sell the day pass through the window.
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Yeah, it would be hard to limit access to those in a club or on a club run. The problem with a day pass type of deal is that people who ruin the trails and do dumb stuff will just buy one and continue.
I think after the first couple of people have rigs confiscated, the message would sink in.
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once again never gonna happen they cant just confenscate ur rig...
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If they tie it into the "WIN" system it can be set up like getting caught poaching
Get caught off trail or breaking the rules a 25,000 fine and the loss of your vehical
All it would take is one or two teenagers walking home after a long weekend and telling mom and dad that their suv has been confiscated and they have a 25,000 fine and the long weekend yahoo idiots would be gone
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Alberta also has a law that allows police to sieze any assets that are connected to the commisson of a crime. Simply make wheeling is closed areas and being intentionally off trail a crime and use the existing legislation to sieze the vehicle used and throw them on the auction block to fund trail policing or maintenance.
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this topics been talked about countless times I imagine.
Fras, it'd be cool to see the day pass thing, don't know if it will ever happen, but then at least you can flag vehicles. take down drivers licences and then there will be some (hopefully) accountability for people abusing areas. once your name, licence plate and drivers licence are on the system and its known where you are it woulnd't be hard to RAT people out.... see jackA$$ ripping up a field, get licence, report it....... start handing out tickets like stunting and 'improper use of equipment' hehe (read: improper use of 4wd) all sorts of stuff.... but i dgress it still comes down to more enforcement........
somebody still has to be out there to 'confiscate' said vehicles
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If they tie it into the "WIN" system it can be set up like getting caught poaching
Get caught off trail or breaking the rules a 25,000 fine and the loss of your vehical
All it would take is one or two teenagers walking home after a long weekend and telling mom and dad that their suv has been confiscated and they have a 25,000 fine and the long weekend yahoo idiots would be gone
The best solution possible, and one that has been brought forward to the SRD and minister on countless occasions. Hopefully one day they see the light.
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What is the "WIN" system? Does it have to do with vehicles used for poaching?
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What is the "WIN" system? Does it have to do with vehicles used for poaching?
Its for hunting and fishing.
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Wildlife Identification Number. You need on to fish, or hunt. About $5.
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all the provincial parks i went to in manitoba had a gate and an office set up that you either paid your 5$ for a day pass or 25$ for a year pass. if you had no pass and were in the park you get a 60$ fine and kicked out. and i find it hard to believe that manitoba can afford these things in their small provincial parks and alberta couldnt even consider the same thing. they have that huge gate at the entrance to banff. personally i dont have a problem paying 50$ a year to wheel a place like mclean creek. if it kept the rotten apples off the trails then im game. and it would put money directly into the park.
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all the provincial parks i went to in manitoba had a gate and an office set up that you either paid your 5$ for a day pass or 25$ for a year pass. if you had no pass and were in the park you get a 60$ fine and kicked out. and i find it hard to believe that manitoba can afford these things in their small provincial parks and alberta couldnt even consider the same thing. they have that huge gate at the entrance to banff. personally i dont have a problem paying 50$ a year to wheel a place like mclean creek. if it kept the rotten apples off the trails then im game. and it would put money directly into the park.
They can buy escorts for all the MLA's with my $50 a year if that's what it takes to keep the idjits out of the OHV areas! I'd be more than willing to pony up if some dollars in order to protect our trails for the long term.
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There are lots of wheelers who are members of a club (and independents) that covertly run trails that are officially off limits - they just don't advertise it. Personally I don't blame them - the bullsh@t rules setup by GAMP/SRD deserve to be ignored after they stabbed the wheeling community in the back.
As far as only members of a club being responsible wheelers - more bullsh@t! There are lots of individuals who wheel responsibly and choose not to join a club for many valid reasons.
I'm against user fees. Alberta is a rich province and doesn't have a user fee for its provincial parks, the same should apply for McLean which is in Kananaskis Country, same policy should apply to provincial forest reserves - Waiparous.
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I never said that individuals that were not affiliated with a club are irresponsible and the cause of the problems. I know a lot of people who are not in a club who care about the trails and try to keep them safe, clean and open. I think that a lot of people would pay a yearly user fee to use the existing trails. If the users of the OHV areas payed ~$40-50 per year I think a lot of problems would be solved or at least partially.
For example; On Jan 1 2010 I buy an OHV permit from Modern Motors that is valid until Dec 31 2010. I get a placard with a unique registry number and space for 2 plate numbers to be filled in. My resistration number is logged with SRD and Fish and Wildlife, it includes my place of residence, vehicle information, drivers liscence info and contact info. From my $50 fee, $15 goes to the government for taxes and admin, $20 goes to F&W and SRD for trail maintenance/enforcement and environmental concerns, $5 goes to the retailer that sells me the pass and $10 goes into an account that clubs can access in the form of government grants for various trail projects.
The penalty for no sticker could be as little as a $100 ticket or a $2,500 or so fine.
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There are lots of wheelers who are members of a club (and independents) that covertly run trails that are officially off limits - they just don't advertise it. Personally I don't blame them - the bullsh@t rules setup by GAMP/SRD deserve to be ignored after they stabbed the wheeling community in the back.
As far as only members of a club being responsible wheelers - more bullsh@t! There are lots of individuals who wheel responsibly and choose not to join a club for many valid reasons.
I'm against user fees. Alberta is a rich province and doesn't have a user fee for its provincial parks, the same should apply for McLean which is in Kananaskis Country, same policy should apply to provincial forest reserves - Waiparous.
Im sure the provincial parks would be quick to have user fees if they were vandalized on a routine basis Tom.
The fee idea is there for two main reason. Deter irresponsible people from wheeling. Provide funding for trail maintaince and enforcement programs.
You have to have a licsence to drive a boat in this province, but with over 200,000 back country motorist there isnt a single program in place to educate, fund, or enforce the back country or its users.
The population and demand put on the areas is to large not to have something put in place.
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In the state of Michigan there is an off road user sticker that can be purchased at the local registry office and a sticker goes on your license plate. Fines are available for those people who are caught in an off road area with out a sticker. They have been doing this for around 25 years. Yes I would support this.
Am not a currant member of any recreational 4x4 club but i have been for numerous past years. If being a responsible 4wheeler means not accessing the back country then i,m not responsible 4 wheeler. ;D
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I'm against user fees. Alberta is a rich province and doesn't have a user fee for its provincial parks, the same should apply for McLean which is in Kananaskis Country, same policy should apply to provincial forest reserves - Waiparous.
i've said it before and I'll say it again,
how can you justify spending thousands on trail rig, often a second vehicle destined for the trail, devote countless hours to the buildup/research of a project, and then say NO to paying 25$ for the ability to wheel. unless ur like me and just like staring at your trail machine while it sits idle in the garage, seems like its not that steep a payment to enjoy something you love.
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If you dont care, then there is no other reason for you to be involved in the conversation other then to stir the proverbial pot Tom.
But, just to put it in perspective for you. Would you rather your tax dollars pay for the enforcement, education programs, and maintaince of motorized recreation you barely use, and dont really care about. Or would prefer those dollars are raised by the actual users involved in the areas?
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Bill, stating my opionion is not solely to "stir the proverbial pot" or take an opposite viewpoint to others, I honestly would rather not pay an extra fee if I don't have to - call me a tight wad, cheap, etc. I know that the intention of the fee is to provide access, maintenance, personnel and enforcement; but we don't seem to be in control of that. The Government and SRD have their agenda and are calling the shots without your or my opionion having any impact on their decisions as far as I'm aware (and I'm obviously "out of the loop", correct me if I'm wrong on this).
You're right, I not nearly as commited to wheelin' as many of you are so I'll stay out of the politics in case my opinion is harming the cause. I was more involved in the past, but the loss of trails and the cost of the wear and tear on the Jeep had me rethinking my priorities. I can't justify spending more on the Jeep considering the trails we currently have. I have even considered putting it back to stock and selling the offroad gear.
P.S. There are no fees for the Alberta provincial parks; National Parks such as Banff, Jasper, Kootenay, Glacier, etc. have fees.
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I'm against user fees. Alberta is a rich province and doesn't have a user fee for its provincial parks,
I haven't been to the snow resorts lately but I believe you still have to buy a park pass to stop in the provincial park. Maybe I'm wrong but I think thats a user fee for a provincial park
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I haven't been to the snow resorts lately but I believe you still have to buy a park pass to stop in the provincial park. Maybe I'm wrong but I think thats a user fee for a provincial park
yes if you plan on stoping in the park you have to pay a day pass something like 20 bucks or so .
i think this idea would be a good way to get alot of those trail wreckers off of them or at least limit them . since there name and plates are on file if reported they get fines
can be something that we can try to bring up to the Gov
if would be nice not to have to pay a fee but if it means getting our trails back and keeping them . then im all 4 the FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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NATIONAL Parks has a fee....Provincial Parks have no fee. Nakiska..no fee other than a ski pass. Sunshine, Lake Louise, Nordic are in the National Park...fee
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Bill, stating my opionion is not solely to "stir the proverbial pot" or take an opposite viewpoint to others, I honestly would rather not pay an extra fee if I don't have to - call me a tight wad, cheap, etc. I know that the intention of the fee is to provide access, maintenance, personnel and enforcement; but we don't seem to be in control of that. The Government and SRD have their agenda and are calling the shots without your or my opionion having any impact on their decisions as far as I'm aware (and I'm obviously "out of the loop", correct me if I'm wrong on this).
You're right, I not nearly as commited to wheelin' as many of you are so I'll stay out of the politics in case my opinion is harming the cause. I was more involved in the past, but the loss of trails and the cost of the wear and tear on the Jeep had me rethinking my priorities. I can't justify spending more on the Jeep considering the trails we currently have. I have even considered putting it back to stock and selling the offroad gear.
P.S. There are no fees for the Alberta provincial parks; National Parks such as Banff, Jasper, Kootenay, Glacier, etc. have fees.
Fair enough Tom.
Ironic though that you dont mind paying for it when you dont see it. Since its your tax dollars that currently pay for any maitnenance and enforcement that goes on now.
Considering a user fee of 50$ a year would provide the government with a revenue stream of 10 plus million dollars, I would imagine a significant portion of their budget that comes from tax dollars would be reduced................
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Bill, you don't actually think the fee money would specifically go back to the trails system for 4x4's?
I could see your figure of 10 million being broke down to 8 million back to general coffers and being used for highway upgrades to get you to the trail heads complete with motorhome access, golf courses, hotels and information kiosks. Unloading areas with all the trim and fancy signs to tell you that anything over 800lbs is not allowed. And the rest going to upgrading the trails so only quads and bikes can access.
This government has taken the easiest way out. There's no way they'll ever bring in a fee process. This is something the off road community has been after them to do for 20 plus years. It's much easier for them to simply get rid of government enforcement workers like Klein brought out when he was elected Premier then just close areas in mass, like this PC government has done since over 30 years ago.
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Im not optimistic that any of it would ever happen. I just think if would be the best course of action. Of course because its the one that makes the most sense, thats why it will likely never go through.
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Your absolutly right Bill - common sense.
Thats why we're not getting or natural gas rebate - because the price of gas is too low. :)
If we paid to drive the trails and they were regulated and policed perhaps they could be expanded.
I know a pipe dream, who wants the pipe next? 8)
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All great Ideas, 10 years ago. I've been there, done that. So have many others on here and other sites. If you want things to happen, run for office, I'll vote for you! The only way it will ever change is to get someone in office on our side, even that's doubtfull. Untill then I will continue to use the same trails I've allways used, responsibly, for over 20 years.