Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: w squared on September 26, 2009, 03:47:32 PM
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When I take the jump up to 35's, I'm pretty sure that I will also switch to two separate sets of tires. One for summer, one for winter.
There are two real choices in my mind:
#1. All Terrains - probably the BFG AT/KO.
#2. A dedicated winter tire. I stumbled across one that's available in 35X12.5R16
(http://www.yokohama-online.com/uploads/tx_yokotyres/T_P_Geolandar_IT_G072_01.jpg)
I know that on road, the dedicated winter tire will outperform the AT - I just don't know how it will work in deeper snow. I've been very pleased with the siped MT's I ran last winter in terms of off road performance...but I don't know how much of that is due to the siping, and how much is due to the void space between the lugs helping them to clear lots of snow.
Some folks also suggest an MT that's studded, but I'm not at all sure that they will work as well as the first two choices. I know that Hankook makes an MT that's pinned for studs.
(http://www.hankooktire.ca/uploadfile/product/tire_rt031.gif)
I know that there are lots of guys here who have had good success with the BFG AT's for winter wheeling, and I've driven them off road in the winter too (on a one ton). Is there anyone that can compare them to a dedicated winter tire in terms of off road performance? Or even a studded MT?
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while its nice, its also a royal pain. the bfg's are pretty good on and off road but not that much better than my Toyo MT's to warrant swapping and storing extra tires and rims just for winter.
as for offroad, i doubt a winter tire would hold up to the spinning and digging down to dirt etc plus all the gravel roads we have to endure. they tend to be pretty soft rubber.
most tires will plow through snow if you keep a heavy foot on the pedal :)
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How are those Toyo MT's on road in the winter (icy conditions specifically)?
I know that Toyos are generally a great quality tire, but I also know that the harder compounds in a lot of MT's can get a little squirrely when you "find" a patch of ice.
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i too have to find a set of winter rubber i dont think the boggers will do very well except for in powder
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How are those Toyo MT's on road in the winter (icy conditions specifically)?
I know that Toyos are generally a great quality tire, but I also know that the harder compounds in a lot of MT's can get a little squirrely when you "find" a patch of ice.
they aren't too bad, feel about equal to all seasons. yea they get a little harder and lose it a bit on ice but not as bad as I thought. nice feeling knowing i have 10 ply underneath me when plowing through fresh snow. pulled a sliver out of a tire last winter the size of a pencil.
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i too would run a Toyo OC MT year round.
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Is this for trail use, street use or mixed.
Trail use only, IROKS, may have to go 36s.
Mixed, look at Truxus MTs.
BFG ats are highly over rated.
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Is this for trail use, street use or mixed.
Trail use only, IROKS, may have to go 36s.
Mixed, look at Truxus MTs.
BFG ats are highly over rated.
i love BFG AT's as a ROAD tire.
i hear way more negative reviews of Truxus MT's than any other hyped tire. After much research, it would be a tire i would never consider running.
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In my personal experience, the BFG all-terrain is a great all season, and definitely competant on any road or mild trail use, but I would not consider it a viable option for a dedicated trail rig. Great for a DD, not so great for wheeling.
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i have 33x12.5 BFG AT KO's and had NO issues all last winter. i have not wheeled at all with them so i have no opinion on that
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Sorry guys, I should have specified. This is not a "trail only" rig. It's also my DD.
Right now, I'm working overseas so I don't have to worry about commuting - but I would still like to keep my heep "road trip friendly".
I'm willing to put up with noise from the tires, and am fine with running an MT as my daily tire, provided that it's actually round.
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has anyone tried the nokian vatiiva mud terrains? i know they make at a 35/15 x 12.5 i heard they were great on ice and snow
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Hmm.... nope, but I used to run Nokian Hakkepalitas (Spelling?) on my VW Jetta and drove through snowstorms into and back from BC that had semis and SUV's with chains stranded on the side of the road. The RCMP just about freaked when he saw these headlights coming and this Jetta pulls up, stops lets him know the ambulance made it to the accident, then pulls away like the snow up to his knees was nothing. He said something about "Alberta Plates, Figures..."
German engineering, front wheel drive, and first rate snow tires = an incredible combination for snowy roads.
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has anyone tried the nokian vatiiva mud terrains? i know they make at a 35/15 x 12.5 i heard they were great on ice and snow
The oil depot guy in Bowness swears by that tire and they look angry on a truck :)
The Toyos last about 40,000 kms on a oilfield TRUCK. A JEEP would have less weight on them.
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best all arounder for winter DD and winter fourwheeling will still be a mud terrain with extra siping. or a mud terrain that has a lot of siping, not many do though. if you're determined to run 2 sets of tires the run a street DD all terrain tire with good siping and a fourwheeling tire with bigger lugs, sipe as neded. i ran my goodyear mt/r's all year round for 6 years and they worked well. my yj is locked in the rear. i am also very used to the way my jeep handles, winter or summer. out here it seems if you're doing any harder fourwheeling then snow chains are a must.
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take a look at a dean mud terrain SXT. They're not quite a mud terrain but I've had customers that really like them in most conditions from mud to ice. I've also found that my MTZ's work amazingly in the winter, and grip ice alot better than they should (being a MT). The MTZ`s being run on a ZJ that had a 249 T-case during the winter. Toyo`s work good as well, or possible the toyo M55 if they have the size you`re looking for.
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i love BFG AT's as a ROAD tire.
i hear way more negative reviews of Truxus MT's than any other hyped tire. After much research, it would be a tire i would never consider running.
What have you read? Gunther swapped out his almost new BFG MTs for these and has been quite happy. I would rate them on the trail as being almost as good as my IROKs but not as good in mud but MUCH better street manners. One other member in our club bought them as well as has been happy with them, his rig sees more street than trail use though. Gunther went with balancing beads on his so if you we 'were reading about them having balancing problems it could be his balancing beads did the trick.
A few years I convinced the boss at work to change over our light truck fleet to BFG ATs due to all the hype I was reading at the time. He still teases me about it. On our trucks, mostly 1/2ton and 3/4tons, they gave poor tread life and were prone to wearing funny, cupping, etc. Also didn't seem that great in the snow. We swtiched out to Nokians, mostly the Vativa's and haven't had any complaints on them. Oh yeah the BFGs would pick up up rocks and chuck them big time. A no-no on an airfield.
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Not all BFG AT's are created equal. I've seen a variety in terms of plies / load rating. I've seen an entire fleet of F-350's used for geophysical survey work running BFG AT's. Yes, there were flats....but that's from boneheaded jughounds driving on top of slash piles.
Has anyone tried a studded M/T?
Oh...and ESI...I'm very familiar with the Toyo M55...probably the toughest AT tire that I know of, but I think that they top out at 33's.
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studded MTs should work good, the MT part should dig through the snow and slush, and the studds should grip ice.
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Clay,
the Truxus issues are indeed about balancing. They just do not seem to balance well for most folks. Of course Gun would like them over BFG MT's... as they suck ;D
As far as the AT's? i have them on my Dodge 2500 and will say they work well in Winter and Summer. i have had weird wear patterns but i think i finally have the psi dialed in. On light vehicles like Jeeps, Pajeros, Toy pick ups, etc they are my favorite.
PS, i am not a fan of IROKs. The tread depth is very weak compared to tires in the same category. They may state a similar depth but when i was on the hunt for a 37ish size tire, i was very skeptical of the visible tread depths of Iroks.
i went with the Toyo MT and never looked back. They will flat out perform the IROK, BFG, Truxus, etc. i have had the pleasure of cleaning obstacles that 'better built' rigs struggled on.
But as with any product, we all have opinions. Heck, i ran GY MTR's for a while and loved them on and off road except in MUD.
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Yes the tread depth on the IROKS is pretty shallow but they still seem to work fine. Even in the mud. I wonder if the shallow depth keeps them getting plugged up. For winter wheeling I haven't seen a tire work so well, they have a fair bit of siping to them and they as ways amaze me at what they'll do. Unfortunately the shallow depth and soft tread compound make them wear out fast.
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My TrXus M/Ts work well on rocks, dirt, mud and snow. They are marginal on icy roads and I drive accordingly. They did take a fair amount of weight to balance (31" size) and I found that they are quite soft and will cut and lose chunks from the lugs if you climb rocks. I run a manual tranny and rear auto locker and on icy roads the rear end will easily step out and you countersteer - all part of the fun. Overall I'm happy with the tires (they are four+ years old now and the tread is becoming shallow) and they were a bargain compared to the other options when I was looking.
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What have you read? Gunther swapped out his almost new BFG MTs for these and has been quite happy. I would rate them on the trail as being almost as good as my IROKs but not as good in mud but MUCH better street manners. One other member in our club bought them as well as has been happy with them, his rig sees more street than trail use though. Gunther went with balancing beads on his so if you we 'were reading about them having balancing problems it could be his balancing beads did the trick.
A few years I convinced the boss at work to change over our light truck fleet to BFG ATs due to all the hype I was reading at the time. He still teases me about it. On our trucks, mostly 1/2ton and 3/4tons, they gave poor tread life and were prone to wearing funny, cupping, etc. Also didn't seem that great in the snow. We swtiched out to Nokians, mostly the Vativa's and haven't had any complaints on them. Oh yeah the BFGs would pick up up rocks and chuck them big time. A no-no on an airfield.
Someone going from BFG MT's to TRxus is not much of a testimonial Clay.
This club easily trashed 10 or 12 Trxus the first season they were out. You will notice none of the frequent weheelers here run them anymore because honestly, they are one of the junkiest radials in production.
Yeah, they have slightly better traction then a bfg MT, but that isnt saying much considering the BFG mt is honestly one of the worst MT's ever built when it comes to offroad traction.
Most quality radials have better traction then a trxus and as an additional bonus can hold a sidewall, and dont need have the rim covered in lead to try and get a balance.
I would recommend just buying 1 set of tires and running them. Toyo would be my first recommendation every time.
My 38 toyos keep up with 42 and 39" irocs all winter long. Irocs are one the most popular hardcore winter wheeling tires around because of their soft compount and extensive tread siping.
You really dont need a dedicated winter tire. A quality tire combined with low pressure will certainly do the trick. Anything needed beyond that you should be chaining up due to safety concerns anyways.
Good luck
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This club easily trashed 10 or 12 Trxus the first season they were out. You will notice none of the frequent weheelers here run them anymore because honestly, they are one of the junkiest radials in production.
IME, that opinion is based on a bad run of those tires that happened for only a few years. I ran some very early ones (before they could be bought locally) and have never lost a sidewall and have never run with ANY balancing and they run smooth... I have friends that have bought in the last few years and have had the same experience. I think this is why you seem to see a real black and whiteopinion of those tires. Somepeople bought in that "bad" period and think that is still the case.
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I think that now for what the truxus MTs cost you can get a way better tire for the same price.
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Well...lots of interesting viewpoints here. I didn't expect to spark this much of a debate.
Thanks to everyone that contributed and made suggestions!
I've been looking long and hard at Toyo MT's for my "summer" tire for quite a while now, and I think that with what I'm reading here, they'll work well enough for me as a winter tire as well - especially if I get them siped.
I've learned first-hand that siping does make an MT work well enough on ice to keep my happy, and it sounds like the Toyos work just peachy for snow wheeling. I've seen Toyo AT's stand up to obscene levels of abuse in the oilpatch, so I have a lot of faith in the way they make tires.
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Good choice. Theses are going to be my next set as well. I've run then on site through mud and then on dry road, wet road and ice. Awesome tire.
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i got my winter tires 35x12.5R17 MTZ's for the price i got em for ill make them fit haha
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IME, that opinion is based on a bad run of those tires that happened for only a few years. I ran some very early ones (before they could be bought locally) and have never lost a sidewall and have never run with ANY balancing and they run smooth... I have friends that have bought in the last few years and have had the same experience. I think this is why you seem to see a real black and whiteopinion of those tires. Somepeople bought in that "bad" period and think that is still the case.
Thats crap.
I've run with people on Trxus recently, and they were still a crap tire. I had a guyon 35's spin out and almost roll trying to climb double this summer.
I've spotted rigs on almost every other tire out there and had them walk that cutline.
The same guy that almost rolled on trxus made the climb last week on boggers, and anyone that knows boggers knows they are a lousy tire for loose climbs and rocks.
I've seen lots of trxus on the trail, and to say I am less then impressed with them is an understatement.
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You think this starts debates... try electric versus hydraulic winch!
There's no debate possible on that. Everyone that's ever ventured off the pavement knows that no electric or hydraulic winch could ever surpass the power and speed that youi get from the combination of a "Come-a-long" and hi-lift used as a winch. Just make sure you bring lots of stretchy tow straps with you. They work great with the hi-lift. ;D
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I thought you were going to say a PTO winch...
Who needs a PTO? I just take off one of my tires, throw a wheel without any rubber on there, give it a few wraps with a rope, and away we go in 4lo. Works like a charm. :o
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Back on topic. I just drove back to Calgary this morning and was stuck in a blizzard on Highway 22. I had my mud-terrains with the centre lugs siped. I laughed to myself as I remembered Todd(wsquared) saying something about how siping on muds helps out. The snow was as slick as snot with very poor visibility. I saw several cars pulled over on the side of the road. I pressed on saw no other vehicles travelling through this crap. I was impressed at how well my mud tires with some added, home-brew siping worked. I made it just fine ,and encountered no slippage at 80km/hr.
I would have two sets of tires if I had the option though. A heavily siped all-terrain for the street, and dedicated mud tires for offroad use.
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Who needs a PTO? I just take off one of my tires, throw a wheel without any rubber on there, give it a few wraps with a rope, and away we go in 4lo. Works like a charm. :o
i''ll remember that next time your buried in a mud hole Todd ;)
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Back on topic. I just drove back to Calgary this morning and was stuck in a blizzard on Highway 22. I had my mud-terrains with the centre lugs siped. I laughed to myself as I remembered Todd(wsquared) saying something about how siping on muds helps out. The snow was as slick as snot with very poor visibility. I saw several cars pulled over on the side of the road. I pressed on saw no other vehicles travelling through this crap. I was impressed at how well my mud tires with some added, home-brew siping worked. I made it just fine ,and encountered no slippage at 80km/hr.
I would have two sets of tires if I had the option though. A heavily siped all-terrain for the street, and dedicated mud tires for offroad use.
I'm glad you made it through that stuff okay! I came back up 22 from the Crowsnest yesterday afternoon/evening. It was a littel cruddy crossing the pass, okay at the bottom, and got progressively worse as we headed north on 22. The only thing that made it reasonable was that the snow was still melting off the highway as it stuck to the shoulders.
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Back on topic. I just drove back to Calgary this morning and was stuck in a blizzard on Highway 22. I had my mud-terrains with the centre lugs siped. I laughed to myself as I remembered Todd(wsquared) saying something about how siping on muds helps out. The snow was as slick as snot with very poor visibility. I saw several cars pulled over on the side of the road. I pressed on saw no other vehicles travelling through this crap. I was impressed at how well my mud tires with some added, home-brew siping worked. I made it just fine ,and encountered no slippage at 80km/hr.
I would have two sets of tires if I had the option though. A heavily siped all-terrain for the street, and dedicated mud tires for offroad use.
And you thought I was crazy about using the utility knife ??? Good to hear it worked well for you and you made it home safe. That chunk of road is kinda dangerous.
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Utility knife? Damn. That would have worked better than that butter knife I was using. Damn!
Thanks Dwight. The do it yourself at home siping helps out greatly. Saved some money on that mod. Tire shops wanted $125-$225 to sipe the tires. Butter knife..ahem..I mean utility knife was under $10. I would still prefer a dedicated all-terrain for winter highways though. This mod works for people who only have mud tires to use.
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the best of both worlds cheap and affective
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwItiRI_iC0&feature=related
forgot this lol
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hmm......... i drove my YJ around last winter with the iroks....... handled better than most MTs, probably cause they're siped....... donno. and they are magical in the snow......... i'd like to see any unchained MT go as far as an irok in the snow..........
anyways i've run, kumho, BFG, Swampers, and Hercule's terra tracs and this winter, Dualler MTs.......... i've never had an issue. then again, whenever the roads wet i run in 4x4............ never had a problem...... personally i don't see the reason to argue what mt is better in the snow/icy roads; they are mud terrains............. pull that lil' lever and drive carefully.......... if ur concerned run a Goodyear silent Armour or something in the winter
ryan if you take a chainsaw to my iroks i'll kill you ;)
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I've had good performance out of both Truxxs and Iroks on trail. Preferred the truxxs in winter and Irok in summer. Did not like the the BFG MT's at all as they seemed to hard. Keep in mind that i used them for trail use mostly.
Balance, how are you folks balancing. When i was running 37" and under tires i had my friend road force balance my tires and had very little weights installed. A straight balance on a balancer does a poor job. Have not done that in years especially on the race cars.
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I just got back from a day of winter wheelin... and I must say that I am SUPER HAPPY with my 35x12.5X17 Pro Comp Xterrains radials.
Aired up? No real road noise. I would like to comment on how they balance... but I haven't had to balance them. They roll down the highway, w/ zero balancing weights, at any speed with near zero vibration. Jeep guys seem to really like them... but big truck guys dont as they are fairly soft and dont last under a 1 ton.
Aired down? I was aired down to about 7psi and pretty much didn't spin a tire, all day, climbing all sorts of snow & ice covered stuff :)
Price? Reasonable... even more so when they have their 4 for 3 sale.
Sidewalls? So far so good. I have some pretty nasty gouges in my beadlock rings but no real gouges in the sidewalls.
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dunno if this helps but i'm runnin 31x10.5x15 general grabber at2's and really like them. Their quite on road decent offroad and apperentally alot cheaper then the bfg a/t's. (Same tread design) Would buy them again
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I ran Cooper Stts on my Comanche. In the snow they worked awesome at 10PSI. I thought they were a great all around tire, and wouldn't hesitate to buy another set, as I have already had two sets on different rigs. I will be running 36" TSL SXs next time tho.
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I admit I am being lazy and not reading 4 pages of reviews but for a daily driver in the winter I would go with something closer to an allterrain , run one set of tires and buy a set of chains for the snow and ice. I know this isn't very helpful on what to buy but my 2cents.
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I got 38" TSL Super Swampers on my 'shared' Chevy she'll go anywhere in the snow or mud once aired down.
Last year we were the first truck to break trail to the falls (in 3ft. of snow) only got stuck once...and that was because my genius co-pilot decided he was gonna drop a cigar behind the seat(on accident of course) and then we slid off the trail in to a snow drift. ???
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how did everyone's tires do today ? my kumho mt's are great in the snow, not bad on ice but today i hard time
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quote author=Bnine link=topic=14576.msg91174#msg91174 date=1254518482]
Someone going from BFG MT's to TRxus is not much of a testimonial Clay.
This club easily trashed 10 or 12 Trxus the first season they were out. You will notice none of the frequent weheelers here run them anymore because honestly, they are one of the junkiest radials in production.
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Ya I guess cLAY failed to remember that I don't get out wheeling very often. ::) So I certainly couldn't be classed as a frequent wheeler.
I switched to BFG's for one set due to the bead protector. Or should I say mud and debris scoop. I ran a set years ago and was so disappointed with them due to soft rubber compound and cupping with low mileage. Like a sheep I believed some people when they had mentioned they changed the rubber compound, I tried them again. Well as it turns out they still do cup way too easy. No I don’t regularly rotate tires. You may if you want to milk the heck out of a set but I couldn’t be bothered. If they’re a descent tire they should wear fine if you keep a good air pressure in them for highway travel.
I’ve tried many tires over the years. The old pattern Dessert Dog was by far the best I ever ran for trail but I’m sure not too many people have ever seen or heard of them.
I also try to keep my tire purchases down around the $1000 mark because I’m not influenced (sheep theory out the window) by peoples opinions about tires too much.
Trxus are in my opinion the best tire I HAVE HAD so far, and yes that includes comparing them to BFG. I also don’t keep tires for more than 2 or 3 years. I sell them when the pattern shows rounding on the edges too much. I still get a very fair to me, as well as the buyer, price for them and I keep my jeep in fresh tires. (For that occasional trail I do)
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quote author=Bnine link=topic=14576.msg91174#msg91174 date=1254518482]
I also try to keep my tire purchases down around the $1000 mark because I’m not influenced (sheep theory out the window) by peoples opinions about tires too much.
tell me where you can find a set of 35s for a 1000$ in Calgary or Cochrane. i'd LOVE to hear that................
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I run 33's and have never run anything more than 33's. Around 1000 has never been a problem for me. Also not quite as hard on parts.
Still running the same old 20 and 30 diffs in the '84 without feeling that need to upgrade. I'm sure your 35's would be a comparably cheaper price in Trxus as they would in something else.
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you have'nt gone tire shopping in a while gunther. i can't find a 35 for under 280$.......................
trxus at national are almost 400$........ so they are not an option........ bfg km2s 300 at kal tire and even more elsewhere..........
like i said, they ain't cheap......
but i digress.....
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Actually I had a set of tires dropped right to my door in May of 2009. I would think that's rescent enough. 33's is my point. My other point is they are probably a cheaper set even in 35's then most others.
The balancing issue: I agree, they are probably the worst tire to balance. The best thing I ever did was beads. Face it, we're loosing chunks of rubber all the time. We get mud built up, ice built up and rims slightly bent. Why wouldn't we all go to a system of balancing that can change on the fly with every change your tire sees at any one time. Makes sense to me.
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if we are talking about an offroad tire that is only driven to and from trails but otherwise parked...than Truxus will be fine ;)
if you have to dd the rig, i would look elsewhere. Toyo oc MT's are $$$$ but worth every penny.
i did notice that Tinkerer siped the Truxus and that may make a difference on road :)
BTW, the tire guy at National is the best. BFG AT's are hard to balance and he has done a fantastic job with my 33 and 35 versions 8)
PS...muffintop. TSL's are HORRIBLE on road during Winter. But offroad, they shine!!!!
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I talked to the memeber of our club that is running the Truxus on his DD TJ. He's had them on for 3 years now and figures they are still around 60% and is still very happy with them. Especially yesterday.....
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From what I’ve observed on the trail and from when I ran 35 trux’s on a 12” rim, people don’t air them down to 12psi for fear of blowing a bead. Most stayed above 18psi, resulting in poor performance and a lot of tire spinning on mud/snow. I think it’s possible to get good performance out of them if you put them on a narrower rim.
But in my web wheeler opinion, Trux's still suck ;)
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BFG KM2 in the snow the past few days have been good. You can get around in 2wd fine, just got to be a little light on the gas. This is my first year with Jeep which is my first ever 4wd . I gotta say I love beating all the cars off the line at lights...yes i am very petty. All summer everyone just passes the big slow jeep...how the tables have turned
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From what I’ve observed on the trail and from when I ran 35 trux’s on a 12” rim, people don’t air them down to 12psi for fear of blowing a bead. Most stayed above 18psi, resulting in poor performance and a lot of tire spinning on mud/snow. I think it’s possible to get good performance out of them if you put them on a narrower rim.
This is where people need to be careful with comparisons. Air pressure matters more than anything. When doing side by side comparisons, you need to all be running the same pressures. Why would anyone be above 10 psi off road? Oh I see, choosing the wrong rims....
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I'm running 35" Trxus on my rig. This is my first year with them and my first set of bigger rubber. They have been great on the road during this snow and ice. Guys at National did a great job of balancing them so I have no complaints there. price point was pretty good. Can't speak to the weak sidewalls I've heard off (yet - knock on wood). I've been happy with them off road though I will agree with Bnine with his comments on their climbing abilities. I've found more than once that I've had fun climbing stuff (which I'll admit probably has something to do with driver ;) ). Overall and to this point in time, I'm happy with them. I probably will be investing in chains for winter wheeling.
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The bottom line is we all have OPINIONS ;D
i have run many brands and what i would never run as a daily driver in winter (ever again) are:
TSL
BFG MT
What i would run again are:
GY MTR's
Toyo OC MT's
BFG AT's. (but i would not run them as an offroad tire (Vinman may differ in opinion on this ;))
And i guess i have no real experience with Truxus PERSONALLY so, my opinion is Null and Void :)
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how did everyone's tires do today ? my kumho mt's are great in the snow, not bad on ice but today i hard time
Zero problems on BFG MT's, walked up hills that people with winters were stuck on. No issues with the ZJ's fat arse swinging out or sliding on corners. Brakings distances were obviously higher but there were no really problems with sliding, off the line acceleration was smooth with little or no tire spin.
Obviously having fulltime 4x4 and tires that are siped close to the same amount as some winter tires helps.
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This is where people need to be careful with comparisons. Air pressure matters more than anything. When doing side by side comparisons, you need to all be running the same pressures. Why would anyone be above 10 psi off road? Oh I see, choosing the wrong rims....
Can't agree more.
I was ready to sell my krawlers cause they sucked even at 10-12psi. On beadlocks at 5-6psi and siped, i'm very happy with them.
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With rocks etc. on our trails, aren't you worried about pinching a sidewall etc. at such low pressures? Those are great for sand (tho it can hide rocks too).
if i had beadlocks, i would run that. Without bead locks i never ran above 10 and usually at 8. 10+ years of wheelin , only twice did i debead.
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Never have problems with sidewall being pinched or the sidewall folding over itself.
Technically you increase the possibility of side wall puncture from sharp rocks/wood as you’re your increasing your foot print. Either way the risk is still there had you only deflated to 15psi, but if it means having good traction to get up a steep hill versus being stuck sideways on a steep hill with possibility of a bad roll-over due to poor traction. I’ll accept that risk….otherwise, May as well web wheeled at home or drive to the falls in two-wheel drive. :-X
I think spinalguy will agree, but I get annoyed when I find out someone’s running 20+psi spinning and stuck on the trail. Basically easy trail runs 15psi max, mild trail 12psi, harder trail runs 5-8psi, and hard winter trail runs 35psi and chains.
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I'm 100% sure spinalguy will agree with you. ;D I'v had many a conversation about airing down and people not airing down. My thoughts on that are life's too short to get annoyed over someone that doesn't take the time to air down. It would be equally dangerous for someone stuck on a hill trying to change a tire thats come off a bead or split a side wall. Comes down to personal preferance and knowing you'll be driving back on the highway without airing back up again. Blow out from an overheated low tire going highway speeds is dangerous too.
You have to learn to chill out with the air pressure decision. I for one will not turn down helping someone on the trail because they have refused to air down. ;)
Trailer rig, bead lock. Run them flat for all anybody cares.
Highway rig, use your own judgement and disgression. People will eventually learn what's best for thier rigs with time spent on trail runs.
Are we still on topic? :)
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;D Hi LoSilver
yes i would agree. Life is short but if you are not willing to run 15 or less, than i am probably not on that run :P
my pet peeve for sure. :)
i have never aired up after any trip (well, maybe twice?) for the drive home. Tires heat up and Cochrane, Bragg Creek, Longview and Coleman are not too far away ;)
oh yeah, winter wheeling tires...chains baby, chains. Although i have never used them.
P.S. your avatar does not look tread lighly 'ish' Tinkerer. ;)
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There... my urban rescue pic instead... there's a fireman somewhere out at the end of my winchline hooking up a car.
Nice! :)
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Having a proper air compressor is an important part of any rig used off road..... No more than a few minutes to air up for me.
And I'm one that gets tired waiting for people not to make it up a hill when all they need to do is air down. I'm always happy to air up as many people as want at the trailhead. It only takes a few minutes per vehicle with my compressor....
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My compressor cost $25.....it can put out more air than a normal stem valve can take. In 15 years of wheeling, I've only dropped a bead once. The upsides to airing down are many times more than the downsides.
Anywho, any chains are better than any tires off road in the winter. There is no "tread lightly" problem. Snow covered, frozen ground cannot be damaged. A heavy, well built chain is the best as a broken chain can do a lot of body damage. V-bar, ladders chains are the cheapest quality chain that you can get. Make sure you have clearance and axle strength to use them.
I air down to 15 psi with chains as well. They ride smoother and work better, IMO...
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Anywho, any chains are better than any tires off road in the winter. There is no "tread lightly" problem. Snow covered, frozen ground cannot be damaged. A heavy, well built chain is the best as a broken chain can do a lot of body damage. V-bar, ladders chains are the cheapest quality chain that you can get. Make sure you have clearance and axle strength to use them.
Chains can be a double edged knife, there are many times I've put chains back on just to tkae them back off 20min later. The problem is in deep snow you are better off floating on top as opposed to putting chans on and digging down deep enough to high center yourself. Chains are not the be all end all for winter wheeling and can still cause enviro damage in the wrong hands. Can you say roto tiller?
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Ok, let me in on the secret, if I can get a pump that does that, I'm in! What kind, where did you get it etc.? Even the ARB's and ViAirs don't seem to put out that much air!
York long stroke and hand throttle. Home made bracket. Yes, it is easier on my old, simple truck than a modern Jeep, but anything can be done.
Axle strength - good point... get that much more traction and there could be problems. I wouldn't go so far as to say cannot.. I've seen some pretty torn up frozen ground, albeit by more than a few Jeeps toodling around. The heavy chains is a good point too... doesn't take much to do some serious damage with chains. (Excuse for opening up the wheel wells and going to bigger tires??)
You should only use them when the ground is fully frozen and covered in a proper layer of ice and snow. If you can see dirt, leave them off.
So in the thread of the post, you say run what you would run in summer, siped for icy road conditions and have chains for the offroading?
Personally I run SSRs in the summer. I use narrower TrXus in the winter. The narrower tires are better on road in the snow and allow chain clearance with my setup. The SSRs are too wide to fit chains. Note I don't drive a Jeep, so my clearance issues are not yours.
Chains can be a double edged knife, there are many times I've put chains back on just to tkae them back off 20min later. The problem is in deep snow you are better off floating on top as opposed to putting chans on and digging down deep enough to high center yourself.
With my rig anyway, there is no way I could ever float. If you are light enough, with big enough tires, it can be true. Personally, I put them on at the trail head and take them off at the end of the day. If the day does not call for them, leave them off.
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Was out this weekend and the trails had compacted snow and ice. Three of us, around the same type of truck, same basic tire size, same pressure. SSRs, BFG AT, TrXus. One hill I drove up with some wheelspin on the SSRs. Both the ATs and the TrXus failed at the same location and needed to be winched up. I was quite surprised.
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Was out this weekend and the trails had compacted snow and ice. Three of us, around the same type of truck, same basic tire size, same pressure. SSRs, BFG AT, TrXus. One hill I drove up with some wheelspin on the SSRs. Both the ATs and the TrXus failed at the same location and needed to be winched up. I was quite surprised.
You are just a better driver :D
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I concur, I was out last weekend as well, two rigs with 33" Truxus and two rigs with 37" Iroks. That day I would say the Truxus were working a bit better than the Iroks but both worked well.
It will be the last time I buy radials for my rig though. Last set of tires were bias plies Iroks and this set were radials. I poked a hole in in the sidewall of BOTH passenger side tires at about the same spot. I beat the crap out of the bias plies and had plenty of gouges out of the sidewalls but never a hole. Now 2 in one spot and one branch that went thru was blunt on the end and the thickness of my wrist.
To add insult to injury a replacement is over $400 and atleast 3 weeks away.
Anyone have a 37" IROK they want to sell? Or even an SSR? Would consider a pair......
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Was out this weekend and the trails had compacted snow and ice. Three of us, around the same type of truck, same basic tire size, same pressure. SSRs, BFG AT, TrXus. One hill I drove up with some wheelspin on the SSRs. Both the ATs and the TrXus failed at the same location and needed to be winched up. I was quite surprised.
Question. Were you the first vehicle through that spot?
cLAY, crappy on the tires that is for sure. What pressure did you air down to?
I aired down to 15. That way if spinalguy showed up somewhere out there and wanted to wheel with us I'd have to say I'm at 15 and over. ;D
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I was down to 12psi which is what I normally run. I may have to rethink that. The radials definatly bulge more at 12psi than the bias plies did.
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Yup, I've seen it happen a number of times, and it has happened to me once before too. probably about 10-15 minutes after I let even more air out, I put something through the sidewall.
I'm just not one to trust tires too much when you start letting out too much air. ;)
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Question. Were you the first vehicle through that spot?
Yes. But it was a busy trail in Mclean, so I doubt my use affected it. Running 10 psi.
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If you arent going to run low enough pressure for significant sidewall flexx, then 10 lbs, 15 lbs, or 40 lbs, it makes no difference.
Most folks that are keen on keeping their pressures up because they are of the mind that less doesnt do anything, simply have not been in a postiion where low pressure made the difference for them.
Regardless of what pressure you run in any iroc, they are prone to sidewall tears. Just one drawback to a lighter weight flexy tire like an iroc. BFG krawlers suffer from the same problem.
I run consistantly at 4 psi for 90% of my wheeling. Max I will run is 8-10 if I am doing high speed race type driving.
If your wheeling application doesnt warrant low pressure, thats fair. Denying the actual performance difference on the other hand is just naive.
my 2 cents
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The lower, the better.
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Regardless of what pressure you run in any iroc, they are prone to sidewall tears. Just one drawback to a lighter weight flexy tire like an iroc. BFG krawlers suffer from the same problem.
Yep seems there is a huge difference between the Irok bias plies and the raidals. We when took off the bias tire we noticed it was WAY heavier and less pliable than the radial I slashed. I have some pretty good gouges in my old 36" bias tires and never had a leak. I'll definatly be looking for bias next time around.
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If you arent going to run low enough pressure for significant sidewall flexx, then 10 lbs, 15 lbs, or 40 lbs, it makes no difference.
Most folks that are keen on keeping their pressures up because they are of the mind that less doesnt do anything, simply have not been in a postiion where low pressure made the difference for them.
Regardless of what pressure you run in any iroc, they are prone to sidewall tears. Just one drawback to a lighter weight flexy tire like an iroc. BFG krawlers suffer from the same problem.
I run consistantly at 4 psi for 90% of my wheeling. Max I will run is 8-10 if I am doing high speed race type driving.
If your wheeling application doesnt warrant low pressure, thats fair. Denying the actual performance difference on the other hand is just naive.
I think I’ve followed this thread well enough to say nobody denied actual performance with lower air. I have however said it’s all personal preference, and I personally don’t like possibly having trail crud find a weak spot with a soft sidewall. Bumping rock ledges could also damage rims with an extreme lower pressure. No air there to deflect the rubber so it crushes in enough to bend the rim. The bead also has less resistance with air pressure so can be pushed in long enough to either allow crud between the rim and tire or pop the bead completely.
I disagree with your first sentence. Lowering any amount will make a difference to the ride on a rough road. Much softer ride the lower you go.
4lbs….I assume bead locks but I can’t remember looking at your rig last time I saw it.
Have a great winter….I’m out of here.
:)
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Yeah, thats just it, with the exception of a slight change in ride, the difference is minimal.
I was denied on double up last year at 10 PSI. To the point I almost rolled backwards after about the 7th full throttle attempt.
I lowered to 3-5 psi and walked up barely spinning a tire.
I do run beadlocks. I will never go back to not running beadlocks on any rig I use regularly as a 4x4. Whether its a part time or fulltime trail machine, beadlocks will always be one of my top priorities.
Sidewalls are at a higher risk of punctures when coupled with higher pressures. With less ability to conform to obstructions on the trail, you are more likely to puncture at higher pressures then lower.
If someone doesnt have beadlocks, I am of the same opinion as you Gun. I dont often advocate people to run below 10 psi without beadlocks unless the run they are on absoutely demands it.
Fixing blown beads on the trail is a pain for sure.