Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: STREEEK on May 05, 2010, 09:23:13 PM
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I have a 2000 Cherokee, I want to lift it about 4.5". what is the difference (proformance wise) between a short or long arm kit. is the long arm worth the extra cash?
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My simple understanding of the short-arm vs long-arm is this.....Tire size!
Short arms for sizes under 35" and long arms for everything over. Running a long arm on smaller tires can actually push your tires into an obstacle verses allowing the tire to come up and climb.. Running short arms with a larger tire is just bad, on so many levels.
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i dont know what tire size has to do with the angles of the arms. i can kinda see what you are trying to say but doesn't make sense to me as no matter how i think about it, long arms would be much better with obsticles. im no expert though. all i really cared about was...
long arms have a better geometry and the end result is much smoother movements.
if i could go back in time, i would have spent the extra money on long arms for sure.
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i dont know what tire size has to do with the angles of the arms. i can kinda see what you are trying to say but doesn't make sense to me as no matter how i think about it, long arms would be much better with obsticles. im no expert though. all i really cared about was...
long arms have a better geometry and the end result is much smoother movements.
if i could go back in time, i would have spent the extra money on long arms for sure.
This. It's largely about the axle movement. From what I've heard they provide a much better on and offroad riding experience because of the arc they travel through as oppose to the short arms. That being said there are people on Jeepforum.com (Sorry if I can't mention other forums) that dislike the long arm kits because depending on your obstacles you can drag the rear links over rock/ridges/etc and get hung up on them.
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In a bout of great timing I picked up the latest issue of Can4wd today and there was a tiny article on this, the editor explains that it is more in regards to lift than tires (I feel these are closely related) he says that 4" or more go long anything under go short.
Here is a snipit from the mag:
"General rule is anything over 4inches of lift and you should go long arm. Im not a big fan of long arm systems unless you run a 35 inch tire - or bigger. With t33's the arms hang very low and will actually drag more than a short arm Jeep.
The main reason for that height and over for long arms is you end up having a steep angle on your arms and the ride height will get choppy on the street and as you try and climb anything off road your suspension will want to plow ahead rather than push up"
Page 10 if you pick up the mag.
I have heard of this several times and it was my main reason for staying with the short arms as I do not plan on running larger than 33's for now,
There are members here who will be able to provide more information as they are paid for there advice in skill when it comes to suspension tech...... last time I checked I am not, feel free to donate if you like. ;)
After doing my research, my determination and opinion is to stay short under 35's, but there may be better alternatives and different ways of setting up a long arm suspension to provide better results with no negatives.
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if you are going to spend the money on new arms ...please go long arm... it will give you a smoother ride, you'll have the potential to have more travel and it's easier on the joints also.
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I'm with Dom and to go along with that... here is my $0.02
My TJ is on 35's with a 4" short arm kit... I was wheelin with a dude last summer who has a very well equipped TJ on 35's w/ a long arm setup... we both have bead locks and quality tires... we both climbed "Double Up" on our first attempt (for those who don't know... double up is a pretty knarly soil your underpants kind of a climb).
Once at the top... he did; however, make it over a log that I got hung up on as his rear long arm acted like a ramp that carried the weight of the Jeep along the arm until it got to the rear tire and from there the tire took him over the log. I; however, skidded along my frame until it got to the lower control arm mount where I got hung up. I could have done it if I had been more aggressive... but he went over it pretty easy.
So... in my books the score for the day was... long arm 5... short arm 4.
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Just to be clear.. I am not saying don't get a long arm kit...... if you are lifting 4.5", and I would assume tires in the 35 and up range; then a long arm kit is definitely appropriate for you. Muffintops example is a perfect example of when a long arm kit becomes a huge advantage over the short arm.
I was just offering my .02 on what I understand the main difference in applications between a long arm and short arm.
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if i were to go back in time i would of gone with a long arm
my 4inch short arm has not let me down but on the road its choppy and ive been told by alot of people that long arms make it feel like your still running stock on the road . the geomatry is alot better the angles less steep and less wear on the joints
if you have the cash you mine as well go with the long arm if you dont you will n0t be let down by the short arm systems out there
if you have time to listen to the someone that knows his stuff talk to "BNINE" he knows it all and he builds complete long and short arm kits
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If you wheel hard once in a while... and value more money in your bank account than a long arm kit... go "quality" short arm. Aheeem... Currie... Aheeem... Johnny joints ;)
If ya got the cash and don't mind spending it... go "quality" long arm or even better... custom long arm (PM bnine).
Personally... I think the bigger "first" question to be asked is... what rod ends do you run? I think a short arm with the right rod ends (aheeem... Johnny joints) is better than a long arm with the wrong rod ends. Then there is the radius arm debate.
Short vs. long is really just the tip of the iceberg... IMHO :o
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Short vs. long is really just the tip of the iceberg... IMHO :o
Just
Empty
Every
Pocket
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;D
Just Expect Every Problem
Just Eats Every Penny
Just Everybody Else's Parts
Junk Everyone Eventually Piles
Just Expect Extra Payments
I went with a long arm. Still too short so we made them longer ;D
Already thinking of how to re-build them to be better :(
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two worlds of thought for ya;
i don't feel like debatin long/short arm..... lots of info on why one is better than the other.
just food for thought; if you're buildin on a budget and are trying to make a capable rig, i'd save the money spent on long arms for lockers;
i've seen plenty of 5k suspensions wasted on open diffs...........
just somethin else to think about.
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i've seen plenty of 5k suspensions wasted on open diffs...........
Can you show the class one example that wasn't due to driver incompetence ?
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more flex helps keep your tires on the ground and then lockers arnt needed i have a rubicon and i very rarely use my lockers because my tires always have bite due to the flex i have
but yes its nice to have them when you need them .
and another very good point that was made MAKE SURE WHAT EVER YOU BUY HAS <<<JOHNY JOINTS>>>
none of those poli bushings there crap trust me i know and i do regret cheaping out on them
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I've seen a lot of money wasted on lockers that don't seem to want to lock, and locked rigs that fail a hill that some wheel spin makes it up. Lockers are just one puzzle piece, suspension is another. Answering an engine-idle question with a tow-points answer isn't useful.
He asked about a lift kit detail. Here's my input, get a coil conversion for the rear with those longer control arms. More flex.
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This dude will prob. never come back to this site and we are on page 2 debating one his topic.... ::)
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As they say... the devil's in the details ;)
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Can you show the class one example that wasn't due to driver incompetence ?
anyone who has a TJ/ZJ that pays a shop to have a claytons long arm installed with a D30/D35 combo...........
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He asked about a lift kit detail. Here's my input, get a coil conversion for the rear with those longer control arms. More flex.
It's not all about flex, it's about have a well balanced suspension.
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Sounds like we need CJA version of mythbusters...
Belt dressing vs no belt dressing
lotsa zinc vs low zinc
Child seats and wheelin
Long arm vs Short arm
Joking!
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eh keep it going, the op may never come back but there are those of us who usually just read posts quietly trying to learn all the details. ;D
"the geometry is a lot better the angles less steep and less wear on the joints "
are there any good diagrams of this geometry that anyone knows of?
I'm about a year-two out from adding a lift to my TJ and I 'd prefer to do it right.
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anyone who has a TJ/ZJ that pays a shop to have a claytons long arm installed with a D30/D35 combo...........
I thought it was Claton?
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I thought it was Claton?
That's just the way they say it back in the East coast Dwight. Same thing...
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http://www.youtube.com/v/0xxRh7A4tt8&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xd0d0d0&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1
i know these are two diffrent types of jeeps but watch the Cherokee has a long arm kit hes on this site and then compare it to my tj with a short arm kit huge difference i know there are other differences tire size etc but you get the just of it
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As far as xj's goes there's one suspension above the rest right now for long arms and that's claytons new 3 link. Personally I wouldn't consider anything else for off the shelf xj LA.
For short arms either a currie arm kit, or Rokman with double jj's. Then choose your springs an shocks.
Xj's require more lift to fit larger tires. A LA is usually a better choice for them. Where as a wrangler can get get away with SA and maintain geometry and performance.
With todays options there is no reason to ever put a radius arm up front other then just not knowing any better. An xjs longer wheelbase will help to hide some of the short comings of a RA, but a 3 link is still a better option by far.
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This dude will prob. never come back to this site and we are on page 2 debating one his topic.... ::)
Hey I am back,
I am new to this posting thing, as well as to modifying Jeeps. this is my 4th cheroke, but the 1st one I am looking to uprgade.
I appreciate all the input, I have been convinced to spent the extra and go with the long arm.
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Ride quality is a big factor in the LA VS SA debate. I've got the Clayton's kit on my ZJ(older radius arm style). And the ride quality is way better than what my old XJ on SA was. Flex in the front isn't much better though. However in the 3 years I've had it I think I've only lifted a front tire twice. I'm going to Moab this fall so we'll see what happens there, I may just end up pulling one upper arm off if it really starts to squirt me off.
Another advantage of LA is also strength. Most of the LA kits are built VERY beefy and often incorporate a frame stiffener for unibody vehicles. Also the mounts are also built much stronger than factory ones. I think they know that when you go to LAs you'll be beating on it.
If I ever damage one of the long arms or mount points on my Claytons kit I doubt I'll be around afterwards to worry about it.....