Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Tagg on May 01, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
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I am thinking of getting a bracket (RS-5510) and two stabilizers (RS-5407) to help solve a death wobble problem on my 08 JK.
Has anyone used these? Know of better? Are rancho products reasonable quality. Any input will be appreciated.
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From what i've read, steering stabilizers just mask, but do not fix, the etiology of the death wobble. Here's a good write up:
http://www.jk-forum.com/showthread.php?132779-Diagnosing-Death-Wobble-and-Fixing-Non-DW-Shimmies-and-Wobbles&highlight=diagnosing+death+wobble
Hopefully it helps.
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Yes I agree. But I have read that a beefed up stabilizing bar is a good thing.
I read a similar article and I have changed both upper and lower ball joints as well as the heim joint end link.
The alignment was done and the tires were balanced 1800km ago. I'm going to get it aligned and balanced
again this week. The jeep only has 6600 km.
So I'm kinda going through that checklist in the write up trying to see what may be causing it.
I wonder if the new ball joints need retightening?
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Check and re-check your trac bar bolts(and relocation bracket if it was used) When I had a death wobble that's what it was a loose trac bar. I used loc-tight on the hardware and I never had the wobble again. As far s Rancho goes I had one of their lifts ,including the stabilizer, on my Tj and I never had any problems. Rancho shocks and Monroe shocks =Same company..Tenneco.
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thanks I'll check that out tonight. I guess tightening them as much as I can is a good thing.
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The vast majority of JK "Death Wobble" issues are track bar related. The link provided by Bone206 is excellent. If you experience DW at highway speed, it's the kinda thing that will make you want to change your undies. If you don't need a new pair, then it's a non-DW shimmy ;)
Until your DW or shimmy issues are completely solved, I'd reccommend against doing anything to beef up your steering stabilizer. It will just mask small problems un til they turn in to big ones. Once you have the issue solved, then fill yer boots - a beefier steering stabilizer makes sense with 35's.
I'd also encourage you to see if any of the holes that the track bar bolts got through are at all "ovalized" by previous DW episodes. Make sure that you have the Jeep's full weight on the wheels when you're tightening the track bar bolts as well. Have you gone through your entire front end to check torque on everything?
I'm shocked that you've had to replace your ball joints after less than 10,000 K. I'm still on my factory ball joints (on their way out, new ones waiting for install) at 90,000K...and 40K of that has been on 35's. I don't beat my on my rig, but it's not exactly a pavement princess either.
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Just had a death wobble on deerfoot doing 110, went to e mortal customs and found the problems
1. I had wrong alignment done after my lift.
2. when i bought my lift i was mot informed that i would need new control arms or pinion adjustment cam bolts to get my caster (probably wrong spelling) in a right angle. so they are getting me the pinion bolts and i would be good to go.
I am so new to this but the people in e mortal are so great.
I thought I s**t my self when it happened.
Anton
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#1. E-Mortal seems to have given you some good advice, but a caster issue did not cause your death wobble. Your caster being too low (which is what happened when you lifted your JK without adressing caster) will cause your Jeep to have "flighty" steering...but will not cause death wobble.
#2. Do yourself a favour and do not put cam bolts onto your rig. If you are off-roading at all, it is very unlikely that they will stay correctly adjusted. Please do yourself a favour and get a GOOD QUALITY set of adjustable control arm (Currie or Clayton). This will allow you to get your caster into the right range. The other options would be a set of AEV's control arm relocation brackets...but I don't actually know anyone that has run them so I can't provide any real feedback.
#3. Buy a torque wrench, go here
http://www.wanderingtrail.com/Mechanical/JK/Torques/2007_Jeep_TorquesP1.htm (http://www.wanderingtrail.com/Mechanical/JK/Torques/2007_Jeep_TorquesP1.htm) and print it out, and learn to check your suspension over yourself. Pop the track bar off and check to see if there is evidence of damage at either end...and then put it back on and re-torque it with the rig sitting on it's wheels.
Also, look for Tagg's recent post here about death wobble. Bone206 put up a great JK Death Wobble link there.
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Wife had DW on her 07 unlimited - turned out to be a seized steering stabilizer, Jay did a great job finding the issue and was cheaper than having the diagnostic done at a dealership. There is still an outside chance that there was something that caused the steering stabilizer to seize and it could happen again but everything is tight and in good shape so we will wait and see.
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When I had my 07... 1 tire belt broken and caster out... took me 2 weeks to find it.
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well i can not say no to the bolts, they ordered them and i payed. i can not afford control arms at this moment but in the future i will buy them and have it done ones and for all. the trac bar was checked at it is new (came with the lift front and rear) so today i am getting it done and i will see if the DW still there. i will post the wheels alignment sheet pic, it was not good lol.
thank you for the info. i can not wait to learn about my rig that i can now what to do with it, people love new guys (like me) with no idea what is going on under the hood.
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well i can not say no to the bolts, they ordered them and i payed. i can not afford control arms at this moment but in the future i will buy them and have it done ones and for all. the trac bar was checked at it is new (came with the lift front and rear) so today i am getting it done and i will see if the DW still there. i will post the wheels alignment sheet pic, it was not good lol.
thank you for the info. i can not wait to learn about my rig that i can now what to do with it, people love new guys (like me) with no idea what is going on under the hood.
If I were you I would pay for the bolts (cuz you ordered them) and NOT install them. Cam bolts require modifying the bolt holes on you frame, meaning that they are a one-way trip unless you get someone to repair the damage done when they install the cam bolts. Cam bolts are an inexpensive way to adjust caster on a street-only vehicle...but I would drive my Jeep with the stock control arms in place for a month or two before I would let someone install cam bolts on my rig.
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If I were you I would pay for the bolts (cuz you ordered them) and NOT install them. Cam bolts require modifying the bolt holes on you frame, meaning that they are a one-way trip unless you get someone to repair the damage done when they install the cam bolts. Cam bolts are an inexpensive way to adjust caster on a street-only vehicle...but I would drive my Jeep with the stock control arms in place for a month or two before I would let someone install cam bolts on my rig.
I would definitely heed this good advice. do NOT put on cam bolts (EVER), as they will only give you trouble. I ran a 2.5 TeraFlex coil lift for while before getting front LCAs. . .the Front Lower Control Arms will make your rig MUCH more directionally stable at highway speeds (I'm running the Teraflex Front Lower FlexArms). Without them my castor dropped to about 2.5 degrees (and expect yours to be less with a 3.5 lift), and with them, I'm running a castor of about 6 degrees. A set of LCAs will run you about 350 including shipping from Northridge, and instead of paying someone to do your next alignment, do your own and put the money towards a set of LCAs (http://project-jk.com/jeep-jk-write-ups/basic-do-it-yourself-jeep-jk-wrangler-front-end-alignment)
Makes a huge difference ;D
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#2. Do yourself a favour and do not put cam bolts onto your rig. If you are off-roading at all, it is very unlikely that they will stay correctly adjusted. Please do yourself a favour and get a GOOD QUALITY set of adjustable control arm (Currie or Clayton). This will allow you to get your caster into the right range. The other options would be a set of AEV's control arm relocation brackets...but I don't actually know anyone that has run them so I can't provide any real feedback.
So if I need to replace the tract bar and steering stabilizer, buying them from Currie or Clayton would be an improvement in quality and durability?
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So i have them installed, I did not see the posts before i did them.
I believed the people at E Costums, they said that it will stay on place if i off road, the cam bolt gave me a better angle but not the perfect one.
When you guys say i would only have problems with the cam bolts, what kind of problems, that i can keep my eye on them.
And when they did the modifications for the bolts i asked them if there would be problem placing new control arms and he said no. So Thank you for all the information i wish i saw that before but after they installed the bolts and changed the angle, i tried very hard to set off the Death wobble and could not. So they did something right and i am happy so far. I can only learn from my mistakes and i would know better for the future.
Anton
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go hit Deerfoot North; specifically go over the calfrope bridge doing 100km/h
thats the best place in the city to find deathwobble ;)
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Really? I have no problems there, all my death comes from the onramp to mcloude heading west off of glenmore. No where else yet for me.
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Lol, that were i got my first Death Wobble on the right hand lane doing 110.
I am at work now, i take deerfoot every day to work and nothing, i did the same lane same spot were it happened and nothing. I hope it will never ever happen again but things tend to break ;D
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So if I need to replace the tract bar and steering stabilizer, buying them from Currie or Clayton would be an improvement in quality and durability?
An improvement over what? What's on there right now?
Both Clayton and Currie make stout adjustable track bars. I would buy either one without hesitation. That said, I'm running JKS front and rear adjsutables and have had no issues despite some reasonably rough use.
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I have a RE short arm 3 1/2" lift kit.
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So I pulled off the steering stabilizer and the first inch or so went in and out without resistance. I'm assuming that is shot.
I took off the track bar also because E-Mortal said they thought it was the problem. Is there any way to tell if there is a problem with it?
Do the bolts need to be replaced with a new track bar? The old bolts look good with no rust.
Looks like the new currie track bar is 2 - 3 weeks away.
I hope these are not dumb questions. I couldn't find answers in the manual.
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Took off the track bar? As in you're driving it without a front track bar right now? Not something that I'd be keen to do myself. I have a stock track bar that it quite functional if you need to borrow one until your replacement arrives. Your axle would be off center, but at least it'd stay there.
If I was replacing my track bar, I'd use new bolts...but that's just me.
I honestly don't know if that one inch of easy travel is a big issue if it's only at the very outside end of the stroke. Bear in mind that the idea of a steering stabilizer is essentially the same as a shock absorber...it simply slows the side to side action of the steering system.
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No I assumed it probably is unsafe without the track bar. It will sit in the garage until I get a new one.
Thanks for all the feed back Todd, and that torque chart too. I downloaded it and printed it out for future reference.
My manual doesn't always give that info.
Re: The track bar fastening bolt. The bolt I took out (not the original) was threaded all the way to the head. Do you think the oem bolt is the same
or only at the end? The torque spec is 125 lbs so maybe it doesn't matter? The nut has a tab welded on so it can be tightned from only one side. That probably a good thing?
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#2. Do yourself a favour and do not put cam bolts onto your rig. If you are off-roading at all, it is very unlikely that they will stay correctly adjusted. Please do yourself a favour and get a GOOD QUALITY set of adjustable control arm (Currie or Clayton). This will allow you to get your caster into the right range.
What about the Daystar Control arms are they any good?
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Personally, I'll spende a few extra dollars and buy Currie or Clayton control arms. The price difference is not all that big, and nobody that I know is sorry for having purchased a first part set of control arms.
I can't say the same for the cheaper alternatives.
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OK so i am in proces of paying off my mistake and getting the money for the arms. Now do i need only the front lower arms or the lower rear too?
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With the amount of lift that you are running, I would do the front lowers and call it good. That will allow you to set your caster, and they're relatively easy to install (unlike the front uppers). Just remember that one end of them will need to be greased on a regular basis (either at every oil change, or after each wheeling trip)
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Thanks
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JP Magazine just posted up a blog on this very subject but I agree, get some adjustable arms.
http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6759735/editorials/07-up-jeep-wrangler-jk-death-wobble/index.html (http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6759735/editorials/07-up-jeep-wrangler-jk-death-wobble/index.html)
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That is true. I got a new damper rusty's and it is just about clearing with out rubbing. I do notice now some vibretion from the front when I go over 100kh more or so. It fills like the tires needs to be balanced. It is stil there when I put it n N when I drive. It sucks one thing after another. But it is good cuz I learn on the go when it being fixed.
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JP Magazine just posted up a blog on this very subject but I agree, get some adjustable arms.
http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6759735/editorials/07-up-jeep-wrangler-jk-death-wobble/index.html (http://blogs.jpmagazine.com/6759735/editorials/07-up-jeep-wrangler-jk-death-wobble/index.html)
I just read that. Instead of fixing his problem, he hid it. Classy ;)
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So after having this cam pinion bolts it have ben less then 30 days with out goi.g off road my second death woble started to happen. Went to chanda to talk to jay after shawn recomended him. I got teraflex lower control arms. The nute was and the bolt was loose and was stripping. So as all of u guys said it will happen well it did. Now with the arms it is amazing drive!!!!. From now and on I ask opinions first and then listen to the shop people.
Thank guys for the info. Oh and now I am gettimg tires duratracs. Can not wait.
Anton
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Glad everything is working out. Live and learn is all part of the process. Anyone on here who says they haven't had any goof ups is lying; part of the process and part of the fun! X2 on the TF LCAs. I'm really happy with mine. I have them set at 23 and 1/8 length and it works out to a Castor angle of about 6 degrees. Love it.
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Ya the drive was sweet nice and solid!!! Still have some bumps in the steering wheel. But a lot beter.
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Ya the drive was sweet nice and solid!!! Still have some bumps in the steering wheel. But a lot beter.
If you've gone to larger tires and a lift (I know you have a lift) you're going to experience some bump steer unless you've adressed the geometry of your drag link and track bar. Unless those two are pretty much parallel, you will experience some bump steer. As long as it's not too bad, I wouldn't get too excited about it.
I'm glad that this worked out for you, and that you got the right advice from someone that knows there stuff and tells it like it is - and that you have the right parts in place now.
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So I got the tires goodyear duratracs very happy with them wow what q ride. So u said not to worry about small steering bumps. Now when is it bad?
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So I got the tires goodyear duratracs very happy with them wow what q ride. So u said not to worry about small steering bumps. Now when is it bad?
I'm glad you like the Duratracs - I run them as my winter tire, and I think you'll be very happy with them.
As far as bump steer goes, I don't know how to describe how much you should be experiencing. A lifted rig isn't going to handle like a sports car...but it shouldn't be difficult to keep it centered in your lane on the Deerfoot either. Understand that you will get more bump steer than stock, but if it doesn't make driving difficult, then I wouldn't worry about it.
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Well the drivig is not but it is slight anoying at each bumb the steeeing wheel moves abit left or right and slight vibs. I am just thinking how bad it will be on a gravel road to goust lake camp ground, well I guss I will see. Thanks for the good rplays u guys are good people so far 2 people Shawn and Aron helped me so much and they only met me ones. I am verey great full. And all the advices that I get here. Thanks
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That sounds like "normal" increased bump steer from larger tires and a lift that does not adress track bar/drag link geometry. Even if you had purchased a lift with an adjustable track bar, it would not correct the bump steer. There are thing that you can do to reduce that bump steer, but I wouldn't worry about it for the time being...mostly because if you let ME tell you what to put on your rig, you'll end up with a hydro assist by the time you're done "fixing" your steering ;D