Calgary Jeep Association
General Forums => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: MuBGuB on September 11, 2011, 08:59:50 PM
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Hey guys,
I went out today (http://forum.calgaryjeep.com/index.php?topic=23241.0) with Ben (skyhy) for his first CJA open run. I have to say, it was pretty fantastic! I got to meet some fantastic people, see awesome rigs, and learn a lot about the art of off-roading. Previously, I have owned several vehicles, but sadly none of them very "off road ready". While comfortable with responsible extreme driving - I need a rig! Today's events have made me re-think my vehicle shopping, and look seriously at Jeeps. I've been considering all types of trucks (mid-size, like the Frontier, Ranger, etc.), but honestly I was blown away today!
I wanted to get the consensus of the forum for what would be a worthwhile investment. Part of me wants to go brand-new (keep in mind this will likely also be my daily driver, so nothing that isn't street legal [for now]), and the other part wants to get an older (90-01) Jeep and trick it out myself. Truth be told, I don't know very much about mods myself, but I'm interested in learning a lot.
Ben has been suggesting to me that I invest in a Cherokee, but there's a part of me that always loved (more so as a kid?) the TJ's (Wrangler's? Rubicon's? again... not sure on all the technical bits). I think in the end, I want something with a shorter wheel base (although 4dr might be ok), with a removable soft top. I really admired Chris and Colins' rides today. Very nice, but very different. Can't decide what world I want to live in.
So anyways, enjoy the rest of the summer everyone - and let's here what everyone has to say!
Cheers,
Mitch
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if i had the cash to go out and start with the perfect first jeep platform that could do everything... look for a TJ unlimited. if you can afford one of course. a sport version should be in the 8-15G range in good shape and lower mileage. find a stock one if possible. or slightly modified. nothing to crazy to start because its more fun to learn as you modify.
thats how i would do it if i could do it again.
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if i could do it all over again with what i know now ..
it would be a
stock tj with a blown 4 banger engine .
rip the diffs out . put some 60s
atlas T case
4BT engine .
38 - 40 inch tires
and long arm
done for way less then what i paid for my RUBICON
but thats me
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It was great to meet you out there today Mitch, wish we could have spent the rest of the day wheelin with you but crap happened :(
I'll see you on the trails again soon for sure :)
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if i had the cash to go out and start with the perfect first jeep platform that could do everything... look for a TJ unlimited. if you can afford one of course. a sport version should be in the 8-15G range in good shape and lower mileage. find a stock one if possible. or slightly modified. nothing to crazy to start because its more fun to learn as you modify.
thats how i would do it if i could do it again.
Quoted for truth. The LJ's (TJ Unlimited) are sweet. They're not as comfortable as the JK's, but they're still very comfortable - and they're a good size (both for cargo space and for trails).
I also agree with heeps on the modification part being fun. The first problem with buying a heavily modified rig is that you don't know what mods you really want before you've wheeled for a while. The second problem is that if your rig is "point and shoot" you may never learn how to drive it to it's full potential. Wheeling a relatively stock rig will teach you a lot about picking lines, using the throttle versus using finesse, and picking your battles.
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if i had the cash to go out and start with the perfect first jeep platform that could do everything... look for a TJ unlimited. if you can afford one of course. a sport version should be in the 8-15G range in good shape and lower mileage. find a stock one if possible. or slightly modified. nothing to crazy to start because its more fun to learn as you modify.
thats how i would do it if i could do it again.
X2, this is a great way to start into the sport! It is a lot of fun, but could cost a lot of money in the end, due to the addiction! I would not sell my Jeep, or change my build in any way. However if I was to start again with another XJ then sure, Id probably do things a little bit differently, but in the end, Im happy with my build because I did a lot of research first. This forum has a lot of great information, just use the search button, and by all means ask questions! Once you buy a Jeep you will be hooked :D
Welcome aboard Mitch!
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Thanks for all the input everyone, much appreciated. At this point, I am leaning heavily towards a TJ or a JK. I don't want to go older than '97 for a variety of reasons however. Obviously, this is going to cost me more, so I'd like to look at a dealership deal. I feel better purchasing from someone I can go back and talk to if I need to complain, get warranty (albeit not much), etc. Also financing might be necessary.
I was looking at this guy (http://www.varsitychrysler.com/used/Jeep/2009-Jeep-Wrangler-c375ec8e0a0a006400406b094ec50c54.htm), and it is almost exactly the kind of thing I'd love to get and work on for many years to come. At 41k, it's practically brand new. And I think that's a respectable price. On the lower end of the spectrum (price-wise at least), something like this (http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-trucks-2000-JEEP-TJ-SPORT-4X4-5-SPEED-OVER-175-CARS-TRUCKS-AND-SUVS-W0QQAdIdZ310473015) would be a pretty good starter build I think.
Thoughts? Let's say for argument sake right now - no Cherokee's.
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. If you are willing to spend the cash on a Rubicon, save yourself the money and just buy a body and frame. You are going to end up replacing everything else anyway if you want a decent wheeling machine.
Sorry, wrong. For the benefit of the OP, I'll explain why.
A Rubicon will come with Dana 44 axles front and rear, selectable lockers, and a 4:1 transfer case. Whether it's a TJ, LJ, or JK...this is true. The only thing to be wary of is that the front axle tubes on the JK are not as strong as a "true" half ton JK. One thing to bear in mind...a Rubicon will set you back less than buying a lesser model, selling the parts, and upgrading parts to bring it to the Rubicon standard.
The stock Rubi setup will handle 33's all day long. Lots of guys wheel 33's and are very happy with them. Even more of us are on 35's and we think they're great. Nobody that know anything about wheeling in Alberta will tell you that you can't have a "decent wheeling machine" on 33's or 35's. No, you won't "point and shoot" the obstacles like some of the guys on 37's and larger...but you'll still learn a tone about wheeling and there are VERY few places in our part of Alberta that you can't go on 35's.
If you want to run 35's...cromo shafts will upgrade those 44's to a point where they will handle those 35's even if you're abusive. Even without the the cromo shafts, a lof of guys in the club have been running 35's for quite a while. A few had issues, and then upgraded...some had no issues, and upgraded when they felt like it....some are still fine on stock shafts.
If you want to move up to 36's or larger, Dana 44's may still work for you...but it'll depend on how you build the 44's, what powerplant you run, how you drive....yeah. There's lots to consider if you're going to run something bigger than 35's.
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I wouldn't buy anything from that car country place, isn't it just the old farmer jones?
They're at the auctions every Wednesday and Saturday picking up that 7k jeep for 3-5k.
Just go to regal auction and get one yourself.
If you have to finance, I wouldn't touch a JK unless it was dirt cheap because no one is parting them out yet, and the engine, compared to the 4.0l.
Jeep tj 4.0l, ax15 tranny, diffs, etc... Are easy to find and relatively cheap. (97-06 all pretty much interchangeable)
Much cheaper then what you're essentially looking at paying for the "warranty" from the salesman above.
Jeep tj is also super simple and basic to work on.
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Regal is the worst auction in town, Michner Allen auction is once a month and they are by a long ways the best auction to visit. Dealers have to have done certain maintenance and are obligated a minimum warranty so there is recourse if there is something wrong right away. Since dealers have to meet a minimum safety standard they don't generally buy junk cars, most dealers i have seen by newer/low km, top dollar vehicles the average Joe won't bid on. Auctions are too risky unless you buy low low kms vehicles, vehicles with a fleet or rep0 status or you know where it came from. Salvage title etc must be declared by the auction so as long as your paying attention you shouldn't get burned in this regard.
That said......
Just find one on Kijiji its your best bet
http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-trucks-2007-Jeep-Rubicon-Low-Kms-Only-13900-W0QQAdIdZ295687316
or.... I like this thing
http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-trucks-Jeep-Grand-Cherokee-Off-Road-W0QQAdIdZ303126724
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Dealers can easily mask problems or install used balljoints from the auto wreckers. Or a used brake pad to stop the squeel. Replace the mud in the diff with oil...but none of that would be covered in a used car warranty anyways.
Regal often has very few show up and vehicles go cheap.
Hard to get burned on a cheap tj cause you can replace the engine for $200, or tranny, $150 axles,, etc...
I wouldn't buy anything else from any of these auctions, just the TJ or an xj, cause they are so easy and cheap to maintain and repair.
I have about 2k into my tj, including purchasing it, couldn't imagine paying 7k+ because the used car salesman says it's a good car.
Dealerships often have low KM jeeps that come from rental companies.
If it's really cheap you can't go wrong, if you're financing you can only hope nothing goes wrong ;D
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Wow... The guy is looking to shell out 41 grand and you support getting a rubicon? We obviously have a difference of opinion but what else is new. Haha
Ya rubicons are great and you gave some good advice why they are so great... But for 41 grand, you could do a lot more from a scratch build. But hey, guess to each their own. I'm not here to argue, just want the op to consider his options. How big if a lift do you want? What type of wheeling are you going to do with it? What size of tire do you want to run? How often do you want to wheel? how much maintenance do you want to do? Does the jeep you're looking at have everything you want?
Myself? I'm not building for Alberta as those who know, I'm from BC and I like the technical rock crawling. I avoid mud because I hate wasting money cleaning my jeep. I'm looking at Moab here in the next few years.
My thoughts: 41 grand and you won't want to scratch the paint. Scratch build and you won't have those worries to hold you back from pushing your limits. In the end it's your choice. Welcome to the most expensive habit. Haha
41k = 41,000 km's
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now now .. no fighting ..
im a rubicon owner .. i love it ive beaten it ive broken it and built it stronger as things have snapped or befor things have gone bad . im a mechanic so im able to do 100% of the work and ussually 90 % of other peoples work as well
so that is why i would go a completely different route now that i know what i want as an end result .. but im already to far in to turn around so my base will be a rubicon to my final build
so that being said theres alot of guys that will op for the rubicon because right out of the box its very good with a small lift and some tires your good for anything and everything alberta has to offer .
and with the right attitude warrenty issues can be taken care of .
others here will say dont waste your money and build your own . but thats all depends on if you can build your own yourself . theres guys on here that have spent thousands and i mean s 10's of thousands having shops build there rig and those builds could of been done for 1/4 of that if they were able to turn the wrenchs them selves .
so thats where you have to decided can you work on it your self can you build it your self . or do you want to buy it and it works likes its suspose to .
if you want something that you will have no issues at all then a rubicon would be the way to go .
if you have the knowledge and know how then you can start with a small TJ and build your own diffs what ever size you want and lock them and build as you break or build befor you break .
so in the end its your choice and most people will be willing to help or at least pass on knowledge on how to do things . but you need to choose the project first
hope that helps
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get a stock rubi, wheel it, figure out what you like dont' like, decide if you like the sport etc.
going into such a huge build when you've been wheeling once will net you a lot of wasted time and money.
not everyone has a dead set goal like moab and one tonnes two years away. if you are so fresh into the sport, start small. figure out what you want.
example, for me, i decided a wrangler on iroks was to big for what i wanna do. and a cherokee on 33s (locked of course) will probably suffice. thats the next build.
your ideas and preferences will change. doing it 'right' once doesn't always mean biggger and stronger; it means building for what you want.
figure out what you want :) if you are driving it daily, then a cherokee is too old unless you like wrenching. lots.
there are many rubicons that are reasonably priced; i'd start there!
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if you are driving it daily, then a cherokee is too old unless you like wrenching.
This is me.
It's like I'm building a new Jeep one part at a time
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Thoughts? Let's say for argument sake right now - no Cherokee's.
Just follow your heart dude, pick whatever you want and go from there! What some people here may forget is that opinions are like assholes: everyone has one. Doesn't matter what you end up getting, hell I'd still invite you wheelin if you bought a Toyota or a Chevy! Either way it'll be a fantastic fun learning experience and THAT'S something to look forward to!
-Jason
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Thanks for all the help everyone. Definitely given me a lot to think about. I appreciate what JackstandJohnny said - in the fact that I'm fresh to this, and I don't want to sink a bunch of money into it just at this point. I also think Rubi03 jef has a very valid point. I'm not very mechanically inclined (yet... I'm hoping to learn), but I know a thing or two about a thing or two. That being said, I have no desire right now to build from scratch, rebuild a motor, trans, change axles, etc. I think for me, the best bet would be a good TJ, and do a simple lift with some nice 33's or something to start. That's where I'm thinking of going for now.
Would someone be kind enough to maybe cover the differences for me here between the regular TJ and the Rubicon? The internet has proved less useful, and I think an honest easy explanation from someone here might be the best bet. From my understanding: better axles, elec. lock diff, better transfer case, gears, wheels, and tires stock... am I doing it right?
-Mitch
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quote author=MuBGuB link=topic=23267.msg144120#msg144120 date=1315924427]
Would someone be kind enough to maybe cover the differences for me here between the regular TJ and the Rubicon? The internet has proved less useful, and I think an honest easy explanation from someone here might be the best bet. From my understanding: better axles, elec. lock diff, better transfer case, gears, wheels, and tires stock... am I doing it right?
-Mitch
[/quote]
You got... that's about it. You will be tha happy with a Rubi and what it can do...
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Thanks for all the help everyone. Definitely given me a lot to think about. I appreciate what JackstandJohnny said - in the fact that I'm fresh to this, and I don't want to sink a bunch of money into it just at this point. I also think Rubi03 jef has a very valid point. I'm not very mechanically inclined (yet... I'm hoping to learn), but I know a thing or two about a thing or two. That being said, I have no desire right now to build from scratch, rebuild a motor, trans, change axles, etc. I think for me, the best bet would be a good TJ, and do a simple lift with some nice 33's or something to start. That's where I'm thinking of going for now.
Would someone be kind enough to maybe cover the differences for me here between the regular TJ and the Rubicon? The internet has proved less useful, and I think an honest easy explanation from someone here might be the best bet. From my understanding: better axles, elec. lock diff, better transfer case, gears, wheels, and tires stock... am I doing it right?
-Mitch
Don't forget about that all powerful rubicon decal as well ;)
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That's mostly correct.
The axles are heavier and can handle more abuse. The transfer case has a lower "low" ratio, making your life easier off road. The gearing in the axles is (generally) lower, again making your life easier off road. The stock tires on a Rubicon are better suited to offroad than the "street" tires on a stock TJ or JK.
Probably the single biggest thing that you will notice off the hop is that the Rubicon models have selectable lockers. These lockers will allow you to lock up your front and/or rear differential, meaning that both wheels on a given axle will turn at the same speed regardless of whether or not they have traction.
Best way to figure out what lockers do fo you is ride with someone that has selectable lockers through a muddy or technical area.
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My vote is for a rubicon best out of the box capabilities without doing any modding . Great for daily driving only down is the higher price point but worth it imo
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all rubicons come with
4.0 inline 6
NP241 t case its beefier then the NP231 that comes from the normal TJ and it has a way lower 4low gear ratio
the dana 44 front and rear with lockers . air and electric depending on years .
and a fixed yoke on the tcase unlike all other jeeps that have a slip yoke
but you can find some TJ and LJ's with a dana 44 rear and a dana 30 front and the dana 30 front are good diffs .. so i would say look for one of those TJ's instead of one with a dana 35 rear . the dana 35 rear is a weak diff but that all depends on how you wheel and if you learn why its weak . so thinks to becarful of . braking a reaer axle in the bush on a 44 is ok you can still drive out on it .. breaking a 35 shaft will make your afternoon the craps.
so just shop around and aim for at least a 44 rear in a TJ or go with the rubicon
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all rubicons come with
4.0 inline 6
NP241 t case its beefier then the NP231 that comes from the normal TJ and it has a way lower 4low gear ratio
the dana 44 front and rear with lockers . air and electric depending on years .
and a fixed yoke on the tcase unlike all other jeeps that have a slip yoke
but you can find some TJ and LJ's with a dana 44 rear and a dana 30 front and the dana 30 front are good diffs .. so i would say look for one of those TJ's instead of one with a dana 35 rear . the dana 35 rear is a weak diff but that all depends on how you wheel and if you learn why its weak . so thinks to becarful of . braking a reaer axle in the bush on a 44 is ok you can still drive out on it .. breaking a 35 shaft will make your afternoon the craps.
so just shop around and aim for at least a 44 rear in a TJ or go with the rubicon
Adding to that. If your shopping for a Tj with a 44 rear you can tell the difference between a Dana 35 and Dana 44 because the d35 will have a rubber fill plug. A d44 will have a normal 3/8 drive racket metal fill plug.
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Once again, thank you all for the great info guys.
What is the equiv. of the Rubicon in the JK line? The best I've seen is the Sahara, but that's described as a "luxury" line. I'm just curious to go try driving one brand new. Would like to find out what the new one is, that is comparable to the Rubicon.
-Mitch
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they make a JK rubicon . .
so its the same as the TJ just with a shity v6 engine
and electric lockers instead of air lockers ..
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You are gonna be loving the feeling the first time you take your own rig out
....uuuuh , didnt you buy someone else's built rig? Where exactly do you wheel in BC? No one in the clubs i know there have even heard of you? With your proposed 6.5"LA and 37's i would assume the rig will never see the highway..and wouldnt your centre of gravity be dangerously high?
And what parts of waiprous have you seen? Other than the gay road to margaret lake , i doubt you have wheeled any part of that area. Technical rockcrawling my arse..on spacers and 31's..pffft.
Find the platform you think best suits your needs, whether it be a brand new JK, a used TJ , or a Rubicon..then figure out what modifications are going to work best with what you want to build. Whether its a daily driver or a dedicated trail rig...There is alot to consider, tire choices,lift hieght, lockers,skids..but a major choice will be bumpers/solid recovery points..no matter how big or small you are, when you get stuck or broken, you need a way out. All the mods in the world dont count for squat if you are stuck in a rut, and theres no safe way to yank you out.
A stock tj rubicon is a great starting platform, and you can get them at a reasonable price. Easy to work on, and fair resale value if you decide this isnt the sport for you.
Taking advice from some idiot who just bought a used rig six months ago is like throwing kittens in a bathtub..it doesnt end well.
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[quote throwing kittens in a bathtub..it doesnt end well.
[/quote]
it does if you dont like cats :)
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Just wanted to wish the new guy best wishes with whatever he decides to go with.
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apeman, I pm'd you instead of replying to you here.
Now that is how you handle getting called out!!!!
Although, I will really miss the ensuing show. I guess I can put my popcorn away.... for now.
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Now that is how you handle getting called out!!!!
Although, I will really miss the ensuing show. I guess I can put my popcorn away.... for now.
put the popcorn away and get workin on your heep :)
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put the popcorn away and get workin on your heep :)
yeah when are you gonna fix that thing?
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Now that is how you handle getting called out!!!!
Although, I will really miss the ensuing show. I guess I can put my popcorn away.... for now.
Get to work on those diff swaps you lazy bugger, we need Simon's XJ back on the road!! :O
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preferably before the show and shine next year ;)
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yeah when are you gonna fix that thing?
Raf, this is Trevor that we're talking about. He's going to his his his Jeep as soon as you get around to it. :)
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A bit off topic fellahs ? ;)
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If it were me...
i would visit Pirate4x4.com and check out the for sale section. Its no secret that the USA is in trouble financially. There are some sik built rigs that are WAY underpriced. If you choose 1996 or older, you can bring a modded out jeep with no hassle. i have done it once with a jeep.
That is what i would do. 8)
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You might want to watch out how modified it is when bringing it into the province. Out of Province inspections can really suck unless you find a shop that will do it and overlook the mods. Something to consider.
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You might want to watch out how modified it is when bringing it into the province. Out of Province inspections can really suck unless you find a shop that will do it and overlook the mods. Something to consider.
who said you need to register it .. if it stays on a trailer there wont be any issues but even then .. with a nice smile and 200 bucks i dont know many mechanics that would fail someting for some cash on the side
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You might want to watch out how modified it is when bringing it into the province. Out of Province inspections can really suck unless you find a shop that will do it and overlook the mods. Something to consider.
Please re-read Spinalguy's post. He very clearly indicated that a rig that is 1996 or older is not an issue if it's modified. Given that he imported his current CJ from Washington state last year, he's pretty in tune with the realities of importing a vehicle.
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You might want to watch out how modified it is when bringing it into the province. Out of Province inspections can really suck unless you find a shop that will do it and overlook the mods. Something to consider.
Its no different than bringing in a jeep from out of province with mods ;)
And thanks for the reply w squared. :)
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Just was keeping in mind the OP said part of him wanted something very street legal so no trailer only. And part of him wants something newer. So if it's post 96 then he would have that to consider.
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Get to work on those diff swaps you lazy bugger, we need Simon's XJ back on the road!! :O
:'(
Agreed! She is on the road... just parked... and not wheeling >:(
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Late to the show but figured I should chip in anyways!
I picked up my 2003 Rubicon in July 2010, and while I haven't made it out to any events yet this year ( :'( ), it was amazing last year!
I'm still relatively new to the sport, but I'm sure you'll be very happy with how it performs. I haven't felt like there are any upgrades that I have to make to do the open events, and there have only been a couple member events I couldn't do because of vehicle limitations (mainly because I'm still running 31" tires).
Just a few thoughts on using it as a daily driver:
- I bought the regular TJ instead of the LJ because of approach / departure angles, however, based on my usage there are times I've wished I had the extra cargo room, and I've definitely used the Jeep on road a lot more than off road
- There's no nice way to put it, the Jeep can be a pig with gas sometimes. A headwind going up a hill destroys any chance at good mileage.
- So far I've found the Jeep fairly easy to work on for general maintenance tasks and minor repairs.
- If you don't have an alternate vehicle, you may have to choose between driving to work or wheeling with possible breakdowns (and possibly taking transit to work)
- It's a convertible, I love it, went topless as much as I could this summer
- I got more comments from women after owning the Jeep for 3 months than I did owning my sports car for 3 years
If you're still trying to decide, I'd recommend coming out to the meeting next Wednesday. Talk to people about their rigs, what they like, how they perform, and their thoughts on using it as a daily driver (if that's the direction you want to take). Good luck!
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Thanks everyone for the input. Got a lot to think about. I'm going to try and make it out to the meeting with Skyhy.
Regards,
Mitch