Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Moezer on April 03, 2012, 12:32:27 AM
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hey guys, I was wondering weither to get an auto locker in the front of my 02 tj or an LSD by no means am i looking to rock crawl or do extream off roading.
The jeep is ganna be my DD kinda in the summer and FUL dd in the winter, I have read alot about the spartan locker and such and some people say its scary or not the best in winter snow and ice.
this last saturday when i went off roading, the jeep failed me every time on snow as only 3 tires was spinning at a time since my front is an open diff but did very well at any thing the other trucks did andat times the other trucks has some problems that my jeep just up and over with out a sweat.
it would be nice to have a spartan up front but since its my DD i dont want to go threw problems in the winter with steering and such.
If i want to go with a limited slip where can i get on or from what type of other jeeps can i get one that will fit in the front. I think i have the dana 30 up front not sure.
thanks for all the help
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If i want to go with a limited slip where can i get on or from what type of other jeeps can i get one that will fit in the front. I think i have the dana 30 up front not sure.
I'm 99.9% sure that you have a Dana 30 in the front of your TJ . So your Jeep failed you in the snow because you only had 3 tires working for you? Do you honestly believe an extra tire spinning would have helped you in the situations you encountered over the weekend? I really doubt it . The present snow type is wet/heavy, and being locked front/rear would have you digging to China. Try a different approach and air down your tires to single-digits psi wise and possibly a better tire choice( flotation is key)
Another option is chains for the rear. A tight LSD up front is fine but will let you down when you really need it. Then again you said you're not looking to do extreme trails anyways and this sucker is your DD. I vote for leaving the front open if you are having good success most of the time.
If you have your heart set on a LSD front look up the Detroit True-Trac online for reviews etc.
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^^ what he said
I will add that I do DD a Jeep with an Aussie in the front year round and it is livable, kinda crappy on those sheer ice 4x4 days but it is something you get used to. The rest of the time you will just hear it click now and then and maybe slight lock up in really tight parking lot turns but it is 99% invisible. On the trail in summer a locked front is definitely a noticeable advantage in lots of situations over anybody running open/open. For the 400 or so bucks it costs to do a lunchbox it sure gets you a lot of performance on the trail. You are getting a locker that locks up 100%, every time.
Problem with the auto locker is that its always locked in 4x4 when power is being applied. Tight turns on winter trails or in sheer mud can become....annoying....I doubt anybody besides the people in my jeep have ever noticed its slight turning disability...except when I bitch about it every now and then....its a compromise
Something else you may want to consider..
Auto locker you can install yourself with basic hand tools
True-trac replaces the carrier and requires a complete set-up....... at least doubles your cost going this route
In my mind 2 options
Open or Lunchbox...I wouldn't drop the money to do a full set up and end up with an LSD, thats just my 2cents
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Problem with the auto locker is that its always locked in 4x4 when power is being applied. Tight turns on winter trails or in sheer mud can become....annoying....I doubt anybody besides the people in my jeep have ever noticed its slight turning disability...except when I bitch about it every now and then....its a compromise
I'm pretty sure that I noticed it when your Jeep turned into a toboggan earlier this year. ;D
An auto-locker in the front may be invisible in 2WD, but you're definitely going to notice it when 4WD is engaged. Unless you only use 4WD while driving in a straight line.
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I'm 99.9% sure that you have a Dana 30 in the front of your TJ . So your Jeep failed you in the snow because you only had 3 tires working for you? Do you honestly believe an extra tire spinning would have helped you in the situations you encountered over the weekend? I really doubt it . The present snow type is wet/heavy, and being locked front/rear would have you digging to China. Try a different approach and air down your tires to single-digits psi wise and possibly a better tire choice( flotation is key)
Another option is chains for the rear. A tight LSD up front is fine but will let you down when you really need it. Then again you said you're not looking to do extreme trails anyways and this sucker is your DD. I vote for leaving the front open if you are having good success most of the time.
If you have your heart set on a LSD front look up the Detroit True-Trac online for reviews etc.
its not about chaining up or what not, im just wondering would it be bad to put a \lsd in the front and another thing i hat some people have probelsm or what now when driving in winter.
with a limited slip i would at least get that bit extra traction then an open diff can give, i like the locker idea but if i cn go to the junk yard and et me a lsd for my friend it would be much cheaper then buying an auto locker lol.
is there a lsd out there that will fit in the dana 30 or work in it?
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I say go for the lsd, by the time it kicks in you wont care if you got a locker, either youll be wheelin like a prostar.
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is there a lsd out there that will fit in the dana 30 or work in it?
Yes.
Options:
1. Detroit True-Trac
2. Auburn limited slip
These are aftermarket items that you won't find in a junkyard. No LSD offered for the Dana 30 front from the factory. These limited slips are over the $700CDN mark and you'll have to redo your gears as they replace the stock carrier. Pricey after it's all said and done with ho-hum performance compared to a locker. Just stick with an open diff and look forward to the challenges that trails offer. I rarely use my front air locker anymore to add some challenge again. I'm also not above using my winch or taking a strap. Fourwheeling is supposed to be difficult or we'd be all driving gravel roads. Enjoy 3 wheel drive guy.
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I'm pretty sure that I noticed it when your Jeep turned into a toboggan earlier this year. ;D
An auto-locker in the front may be invisible in 2WD, but you're definitely going to notice it when 4WD is engaged. Unless you only use 4WD while driving in a straight line.
It's just a little added excitement. When you get used to it, there is nothing wrong with using the gas peddle for a little rear steer to help get you out of tight places...or around corners.
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Yes.
Options:
1. Detroit True-Trac
2. Auburn limited slip
These are aftermarket items that you won't find in a junkyard. No LSD offered for the Dana 30 front from the factory. These limited slips are over the $700CDN mark and you'll have to redo your gears as they replace the stock carrier. Pricey after it's all said and done with ho-hum performance compared to a locker. Just stick with an open diff and look forward to the challenges that trails offer. I rarely use my front air locker anymore to add some challenge again. I'm also not above using my winch or taking a strap. Fourwheeling is supposed to be difficult or we'd be all driving gravel roads. Enjoy 3 wheel drive guy.
There is a front LSD option from the factory. It came in the front of some grand Cherokees with the hi end quadra drive something. Its a low pinion d30 and I think it would fit a TJ d30. But I'm not 100% certain on that. A full locker may end up breaking other parts. LSD has some give to it. Open diff shouldn't break anything. I have and auburn in my rear diff and I like it. Tru tracs are good too.
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There is a front LSD option from the factory. It came in the front of some grand Cherokees with the hi end quadra drive something. Its a low pinion d30 and I think it would fit a TJ d30. But I'm not 100% certain on that. A full locker may end up breaking other parts. LSD has some give to it. Open diff shouldn't break anything. I have and auburn in my rear diff and I like it. Tru tracs are good too.
heeps is referring to the varilock axles that came in 99 - 2001 Gand Cherokee ltd. with the V8. they are cool and work well. i don't think it'll work in a TJ/XJ/ZJ
that said, i've never seen anyone try either
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A full locker may end up breaking other parts. LSD has some give to it. Open diff shouldn't break anything.
33" tires and a locker never bothered my d30 none....35's fumed it right off.
I'd say the risk is acceptable, and who cares? something breaks fix/upgrade it...thats what wheeling is all about. Moot point worrying about breakage at every step of the game, Just be prepared, bring spares and know what to expect.
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OR...
There's the option to just get it over with , and have the best of both worlds( DD-friendly) and buy a damn selectable locker . Air, electric, cable blah, blah freaking blah but that's another debate.
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OR...
There's the option to just get it over with , and have the best of both worlds( DD-friendly) and buy a damn selectable locker . Air, electric, cable blah, blah freaking blah but that's another debate.
Stop talking sense Noel. You know that won't make you any friends around here. Next thing we know, someone's gonna say "Do it once, do it right" and then people will REALLY start getting upset. ;D
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Why not get rid of the lsd in the rear and go selectable.
When we were behind you 99% of the time you were one legging it up everything.
Thats why my friends tacoma on 31" bald a/t's was making it up stuff was because he has a locked rear.
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pretty tough to justify a 700 lsd for a d30.
If you keep your eyes on the for sale forems you can usually pick up a lunch box used for 100-150$. Thats the way I would go for that intermediate step. You really shouldnt need 4wd around town, other then the odd intersection start for getting ahead. Otherwise you are always in 2wd anyways.
Or if you luck out and find a good used lsd for 200$ or so, then go for it. But they are rare, cause not many people buy them.
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Why not get rid of the lsd in the rear and go selectable.
When we were behind you 99% of the time you were one legging it up everything.
Thats why my friends tacoma on 31" bald a/t's was making it up stuff was because he has a locked rear.
lol only problems i had was on the snow/slush lol
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If you went with a auto locker up front and got rid of the vacume hub doodad (tracklok thingy). would you not have 3 wheel drive until engaged. And the other wheel would free spin giving you steering capabilities.
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Locker in the rear is more advantageous, but then your pretty much limited to an LSD or selectable in a short wheel base wrangler........ this means $$$$.
Lunchbox upfront only makes sense because its A. Cheap B. an open diff when your not in 4x4.
In a perfect world we would all be willing to drop the cash for a selectable....unfortunately reality doesn't always make that the best option given circumstance.
I scored my Aussie pretty cheap off kijiji, it has been great. My e-locker wires have been ripped out, I have seen ARB air systems fail again and again ;D. Aussie has worked every-time flawlessly 100% lock 100% of the time still looks brand new after 2 1/2 years DD'ing and wheeling it very regularly. So yeah it plows and it kinda sucks on slippery roads....oh and in the right circumstance it walks around on ledges...which can be scary as crap, also slippery off camber conditions are a nightmare haha. Overall I'd say I'm still way ahead with the Aussie then without, just thought I'd post up the good and the bad.
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Locker in the rear is more advantageous, but then your pretty much limited to an LSD or selectable in a short wheel base wrangler........ this means $$$$.
Lunchbox upfront only makes sense because its A. Cheap B. an open diff when your not in 4x4.
In a perfect world we would all be willing to drop the cash for a selectable....unfortunately reality doesn't always make that the best option given circumstance.
I scored my Aussie pretty cheap off kijiji, it has been great. My e-locker wires have been ripped out, I have seen ARB air systems fail again and again ;D. Aussie has worked every-time flawlessly 100% lock 100% of the time still looks brand new after 2 1/2 years DD'ing and wheeling it very regularly. So yeah it plows and it kinda sucks on slippery roads....oh and in the right circumstance it walks around on ledges...which can be scary as crap, also slippery off camber conditions are a nightmare haha. Overall I'd say I'm still way ahead with the Aussie then without, just thought I'd post up the good and the bad.
a lsd in the front wont be the answer then if its that expensive and the thing about the the aussie is its my winter ride 100% lol i have a bmw for summer so the jeep only gets driven hort distances but it will be a problem when inter hits
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perhaps jrama if u got a tj i can test drive it :D
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I drive my jeep in winter full time its not bad at all, it is just annoying at times especially with MT's. I go down roads upwards of 80kph in 4H with the Aussie on snowy roads , worst that happens is it tends to wander more, you have to pay more attention. Curves and turns on the road are always gradual enough so that the jeep easily makes them. The only real problem in winter is pulling away from an intersection making a turn in 4H, it plows but still makes the turn.
As was mentioned by Bnine, even in winter you don't usually need to touch 4H and the cases where you want 4x4 the road is bad enough so that it allows the front tires to slide making the locked front livable. On those really bad days I just pull the 4x4 lever taking off from intersections and put it back in 2h when I'm done. Oh and don't even in your wildest dreams think about putting the jeep in 4h on dry pavement (not that you would), the locked front can throw you off the road if your not gripping that wheel good! I have tried! It doesn't like to un-lock with a ton of stress on it either...so its extra fun
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Dana 35 in the back right?
Once i get my 8.8 in ill be having a dana 35 aussie up for sale on the cheap.
I would absolutely recommend a selectable in the rear if you can afford it though. Aussie'd rear in the winter is immensely fun when you WANT to get sideways.
However absolutely scary when you start drifting highway on ramps and such.
For the front, if your dropping that much on an lsd you may as well just go selectable, all the same work required.
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I drive my jeep in winter full time its not bad at all, it is just annoying at times especially with MT's. I go down roads upwards of 80kph in 4H with the Aussie on snowy roads , worst that happens is it tends to wander more, you have to pay more attention. Curves and turns on the road are always gradual enough so that the jeep easily makes them. The only real problem in winter is pulling away from an intersection making a turn in 4H, it plows but still makes the turn.
As was mentioned by Bnine, even in winter you don't usually need to touch 4H and the cases where you want 4x4 the road is bad enough so that it allows the front tires to slide making the locked front livable. On those really bad days I just pull the 4x4 lever taking off from intersections and put it back in 2h when I'm done. Oh and don't even in your wildest dreams think about putting the jeep in 4h on dry pavement (not that you would), the locked front can throw you off the road if your not gripping that wheel good! I have tried! It doesn't like to un-lock with a ton of stress on it either...so its extra fun
What about when you have a 242 transfer case and want to use full-time instead of part-time? I presume in such a situation an automatic lunchbox locker up front would make it hell to deal with.
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Assuming your on a Slick Road
Full time is like 4wd without the locking center diff correct? So I don't see how it would be much of a problem... pretty much the same thing... the tires with the least resistance will be the ones spinning faster, that could be the front or the back or any combination since its full time.
If your on grippy-ish pavement you will lose your full time ability with a 242.
TJ only has 4h (part time) or nothing
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If you have your heart set on a LSD front look up the Detroit True-Trac online for reviews etc.
f/r tt's haven't let me down yet. All depends on where you might want to go with it and how easy you want to make it. The few times I've had it out, where I was stuck and had to winch, those with 33's and lockers front and rear were also winching. Not knocking selectable lockers, but for what I wanted tt's were the best choice.
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im thinking of jut going with the spartan in the front, also jrama in winter i slap on my winter tires, would that make a diffrance? if u dont mind maybe i can catch a ride with you some time to see how it works out like.
another thing in my tj if i put it in 4 hi or 4 low my dash only lights up as part time :S
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That's because it IS part-time. Part time means the front and rear driveshafts are locked together in a 50/50 split. When one spins, so does the other. This is what you want for off-roading for maximum traction.
Full time is where the transfer case has a differential and can allow the front and rear shafts to spin at separate rates (just like your axle differential allows the two wheels to spin at different rates). This is useful for using 4wd on dry pavement or when its not quite wet or slick enough to use part time (without risking damage to the transfer case or tires or other components).
For example its nice to use full-time 4wd in the city on mornings like this when yoy're often swithing between damp/snowy residential roads and dry main roads.
As Jamal said TJs only come with a part-time only transfer case.
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im thinking of jut going with the spartan in the front, also jrama in winter i slap on my winter tires, would that make a diffrance? if u dont mind maybe i can catch a ride with you some time to see how it works out like.
Sigh...
Winter tires ? Wha?
(Semi-el-cheapo-method but a pain in your arse gonna hate it but it's an option type-dealio)
Buy a lunchbox locker. Replace spider gears in carrier with said lunchbox. Have fun all summer till winter arrives. Remove lunchbox and re-install spider gears. Done. El-cheapo.
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tubby u like to do things the hrd way lol, im ganna buy the spartan down the road and i guess get use to it lol
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tubby u like to do things the hrd way lol, im ganna buy the spartan down the road and i guess get use to it lol
100% correct ! I DID do it the hard way and put a lunchbox in my front Dana 30. Lasted all but a month in there. Was a chore to steer (yes the tolerances were in spec during installation) and I hated it in my DD. The Machinist(Jamey) also put a lunchbox in his 30. Not so " transparent" up front in his DD either. He spent over a grand and bought locking hubs so he could steer again. It's sometimes hit and miss. Do some searching online on different Jeep forums to find similar stories. Some guys like it and some guys don't . Kinda like ketchup on Kraft Dinner kind of thing?
I'm glad it works for some guys. I'll never do it again. Do it up and report back.