Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Delco21 on July 04, 2012, 10:58:24 AM
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Im tossed up between the rough country spacer lift 2.5" or the rubicon express spacer lift
Any suggestions on what you guys would suggest
Its going on a 2012 JK 4 door
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That rough country lift is tempting because of the price thats for sure.
Being as it's just a spacer lift i would go that route.
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Just make sure it's for a 2012 jut went through a parts issue with bds and rough country due to parts not matching due to changes in the 2012s
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AEV
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Chris do yourself a favor and go Old Man Emu or AEV. You will regret the spacer lift trust me.
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Talk to Stacey (Jeepgirl) about her AEV kit. It rides better than stock. I know the OME kit also gives you 4" of lift not the 21/2" that's online. Sean has a 2 door orange JK with that kit and he loves it. Runs 35s with no issues at all.
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I'd suggest just spending the money once. Only a rich guy can afford to buy a 2 or 3 inch lift more than once....and that's just what you'll end up doing with an el-cheapo spacer lift - at least if you want to wheel it.
Sean and I both run OME-based Frankenlifts, and we like 'em. They flex VERY well for a short arm kit. Jeepgrl runs the AEV kit with the control arm relocation brackets, and she loves it. Does very well on-road. All of us run 35's. I would not hesitate to buy a Currie or Clayton lift either.
Less expensive lifts? Normally engineered to hit a specific price point.
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I agree Todd. I have the OME in my grand and absolutely love it. Can't go wrong with any of these lifts.
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Fine...I'll play devils advocate...I'm bored and like to think I know what I am talking about ;D
I'd wager you'd be hard pressed to find much of a difference between 2.5" rough country lift (with coils) and an OME kits even with arms ;D on the trail (hell even the spacer lift). All the Geometry is the same the only real difference is that the joints in the arms will last longer. Stock arms should last a couple years atleast if wheeled fairly regularly......mine where still fine and I wheeled a ton on them.
Ride quality is a different story....
The shocks on the more expensive kits will give a better on/off road ride. Coils too...that said if the cheapo kits get good reviews I'd probably buy them over a more pricey kit. Replace the shocks later....My twin tube cheapo shocks are still good after 3 years of DD and trail use....it rides alright...probably could be better but I don't really care right now.
my 2 cents you don't need to buy an expensive kit if a good cheap-ish kit will get you through. IMO your not changing enough suspension wise to justify a large investment..... That AEV kit is on a different level than these kits and more $$$
Zone makes some good stuff, good quality coils and shocks for the price, get the 3" with the Nitro's and LAUGH at all the silly guys running OME :D you will have tons o fun wheelin on the bolt in 3" lift for the time being, if you get serious enough to justify the expensive stuff go and purchase a more complete kit for a couple thousand that changes some things up.
**I don't like spacer lifts..they don't actually gain you any travel..they just bump the jeep up higher**
http://zoneoffroad.ca/default.cfm?fa=products&ProdCategoryID=3
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Zone makes some good stuff, good quality coils and shocks for the price, get the 3" with the Nitro's and LAUGH at all the silly guys running OME :D
http://zoneoffroad.ca/default.cfm?fa=products&ProdCategoryID=3
Feelings officially hurt ???? lol
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Fine...I'll play devils advocate...I'm bored and like to think I know what I am talking about ;D
Yup. You do seem bored.
I'd wager you'd be hard pressed to find much of a difference between 2.5" rough country lift (with coils) and an OME kits even with arms ;D on the trail (hell even the spacer lift). All the Geometry is the same the only real difference is that the joints in the arms will last longer. Stock arms should last a couple years atleast if wheeled fairly regularly......mine where still fine and I wheeled a ton on them.
Sorry, wrong on a number of points. OME doesn't make control arms. Most of us just buy a pair of Currie or Clayton arms (upper or lower fronts) to adress caster and call it a day. And there is a definite difference on the trail between the OME long travel setup and an el-cheapo coil lift. Mostly that the shocks are better quality, and when set up properly with supporting parts (coil retainer clips and longer brake lines) the OME will get you more travel. You are however correct that three out of four sets of stock arms can be left in place on a JK that is running three inches of lift with no issues.
Ride quality is a different story....
The shocks on the more expensive kits will give a better on/off road ride. Coils too...that said if the cheapo kits get good reviews I'd probably buy them over a more pricey kit. Replace the shocks later....My twin tube cheapo shocks are still good after 3 years of DD and trail use....it rides alright...probably could be better but I don't really care right now.
my 2 cents you don't need to buy an expensive kit if a good cheap-ish kit will get you through. IMO your not changing enough suspension wise to justify a large investment..... That AEV kit is on a different level than these kits and more $$$
Sorry. Nope. The AEV is just aimed at a different segment of the market. As it's sold from AEV, the kit provides better on-road performance than an OME LT setup, but doesn't provide the same amount of suspension travel. If it did, they would be selling it with longer brake lines. If I tried to run stock brake lines on my rig with the OME setup, I'd lose my brakes about five minutes after I disco'd my swaybar.
You also sacrifice some clearance by using the control arm relocation brackets that AEV provides....but it may be worth it to you if you value the smoother ride gained by keeping the lower control arms closer to horizontal. Oh...and BTW....doing the OME LT setup properly won't save any money versus the AEV lift. They both use good quality components, built to perform at a specific level. Either way, you're looking at around 2K to do it right.
Zone makes some good stuff, good quality coils and shocks for the price, get the 3" with the Nitro's and LAUGH at all the silly guys running OME :D you will have tons o fun wheelin on the bolt in 3" lift for the time being, if you get serious enough to justify the expensive stuff go and purchase a more complete kit for a couple thousand that changes some things up.
See....here's the funny thing. That Zone kit doesn't adress centering the axles under the rig - if you ask me, an el-cheapo track bar bracket is a problem waiting to happen, not a solution. Just wait until the increased leverage applied to the stock track bar mounting location starts causing damage - or breaks off while you're on the trail. There's more to selecting parts than just finding something that'll bolt up - take the time to figure out what that part is going to mean to your rig's reliability. The Zone lift also doesn't adress the caster issues that will occur when you move the front axle further away from the frame. Sure, you could add a set of arms, a couple track bars, and brake lines to a zone kit....but what you'd end up with is a kit that's close in price to a proper lift, but still has cheap-arse coils and shocks.
**I don't like spacer lifts..they don't actually gain you any travel..they just bump the jeep up higher**
http://zoneoffroad.ca/default.cfm?fa=products&ProdCategoryID=3
I agree with you on the spacer lifts. On everything else....please limit your devil's advocacy to areas where you have the knowledge to do it properly.
Delco - to answer your first question....
If a spacer lift is all that your budget will handle right now and you aren't in a position to be patient and save the money to do a coil lift that'll get you good performance on and off the trail, then I'd look at Currie's levelling kit for the JK. It'll probably run you about $600 to do both front and rear, and you can run 33's with it.
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So your argument has one primary focus
The Cheap kits are not complete, use inferior parts
It would be pretty silly of me to accuse a spacer lift of being equal to to the OME long travel...you just called me stupid...more than once in that post ;D you should know me a bit better. I am talking Apples to apples, coils and springs vs coils and springs OME vs. Zone for conversation sake. How exactly is the base OME kit more complete? Why does OME sell a kit without arms and tracbars etc?..because its Completely FINE to run! Rear trac bar brackets breaking....caster..lol? its like 3" of lift you will live ....wow.
inferior parts?
Zone gets great reviews they use BDS parts which from first hand and many many internet reviews kick arse. Throw the word cheap around all you want it doesn't hold any water....just sayin. A quick google search will prove my point again....and again...and.....................again.
I wouldn't drop all this money into your first lift, you can get by fine building it up as you go. Don't want to sounds like a Dick but lots of guys lift it and sell it. Get something affordable and sound have some fun and go from there. I built my entire lift from a "cheap" BDS kit 3 years later its holding up great and I have added to it to make it better as the jeep got bigger.
I have seen the "proper" bolt on rigs and the "cheap" bolt on rigs...lol. Just watch what your buying and its all good! You don't have to jump spend the most to have a fun reliable rig.
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Zone also doesn't address torque twist, or weight balance in their coils, whereas OME does. I'm not knockin Zone, but alot of reviews out there on cheap (talking price only so as not to offend) lift kits and spacer lifts are from mall crawlers. Jeepforum is a good example of that. I spent the extra beans from the getgo on my TJ and went OME, certainly don't regret my decision in anyway.
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So your argument has one primary focus
Yes. My focus is buy good quality parts, buy the right parts for what you are going to do, and don't waste your money on cheap shiz that you're going to have to replace. I'm not trying to tell a new guy that he needs to put long arms on his rig and he better make sure that all his mods leave rooms for coilovers and air bumps because he's sure to want them...I'm just suggesting that if he buys cheap junk to bolt onto his rig now, he'll just end up buying good parts to bolt on in when the cheap junk breaks in a year or two.
The Cheap kits are not complete, use inferior parts
It would be pretty silly of me to accuse a spacer lift of being equal to to the OME long travel...you just called me stupid...more than once in that post ;D you should know me a bit better. I am talking Apples to apples, coils and springs vs coils and springs OME vs. Zone for conversation sake. How exactly is the base OME kit more complete? Why does OME sell a kit without arms and tracbars etc?..because its Completely FINE to run! Rear trac bar brackets breaking....caster..lol? its like 3" of lift you will live ....wow.
The base OME kit is NOT complete. The difference is that they don't try to tell folks that are new to modifying their rigs that it is complete. They sell you coils and shocks that work well together, and leave the rest up to you.
I'm not sure where I called you stupid my response, and if that's how you read it, such was not my intention. I did ask you to restrict your comments to areas where you've got the knowledge to provide sound guidance to the new folks. I have no first hand experience with lifting and then wheeling a TJ, so I keep my yap shut when a new guy asks about what to do with his '03 TJ. I have limited knowlege about 4-link geometry, so I keep my yap shut and learn from what Billy and the guys say when someone asks about anti-squat.
As far as not needing to pay attention to the fact that the track bar brackets are the cheapest and least reliable solution to centering the axle under the rig, or assuming that there's no need to adress the change in caster that happens when you lift a rig...it may be acceptable run a rig likt that for a while, that's in the same category as deciding to remove your sway bar links completely because you're too cheap to buy ones that'll fit.
inferior parts?
Zone gets great reviews they use BDS parts which from first hand and many many internet reviews kick arse. Throw the word cheap around all you want it doesn't hold any water....just sayin. A quick google search will prove my point again....and again...and.....................again.
I read in on the internets, so it must be true.
I wouldn't drop all this money into your first lift, you can get by fine building it up as you go. Don't want to sounds like a Dick but lots of guys lift it and sell it. Get something affordable and sound have some fun and go from there. I built my entire lift from a "cheap" BDS kit 3 years later its holding up great and I have added to it to make it better as the jeep got bigger.
Since I don't have anything nice to say on this topic, I'll just shut up.
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Just a side note.......this would be the first lifted JK for Delco, but not his first lifted rig. He has had a lifted Commander for a few years now and I know it was more than a spacer lift. In the end, I think you will be much happier with a quality kit like the OME or AEV on this rig, but I'm basing that on the OME kit I have in my WK. Guys like Todd and other JK owners would be the best guys to provide feedback.
Did you check out the JK club here in town to get their feedback? There's no better advice than the advice from people driving those rigs.
PS Jamal.......I still like your TJ :) lol
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If it is your second lifted rig, then I'd suggest an OME lift as well.
Some of the spacers kits do have their low-end-price-point as a quick introductory kit for the new guy/gal looking to get into wheeling with a rig they're not planning to keep long term. 97 TJ that's kind of rusty, lots of pinstriping, weekend wheeler on a budget? Sure.
For a new 2012 JK that's going to be around for a while, go with the higher end.
(besides...everyone knows that the JK guys have lots of cash to throw around.......) :D
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Just a side note.......this would be the first lifted JK for Delco, but not his first lifted rig. He has had a lifted Commander for a few years now and I know it was more than a spacer lift. In the end, I think you will be much happier with a quality kit like the OME or AEV on this rig, but I'm basing that on the OME kit I have in my WK. Guys like Todd and other JK owners would be the best guys to provide feedback.
Did you check out the JK club here in town to get their feedback? There's no better advice than the advice from people driving those rigs.
PS Jamal.......I still like your TJ :) lol
Very true the commander had an AEV lift and I did love it
Basically this jeep will be a daily driver and a once in a while wheeler I just dont want to go too high as I want it to still be practical for the family thats why I had looked at spacer lifts
I think I will be looking at AEV to see what kits they offer around 2.5-3" of lift
I have also asked over on JK owners forum seems like alot of guys and gals on there are running 4.5" lifts
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You called me stupid....You assumed that I was comparing a more complete kit to something like the zone 3" :o and you assumed I was unaware of tracking and caster? :P So yeah....called me dumb..I don't care though, Kill you next time I see you :P
Zone never says their kit is complete...no manufacturer does unless its a high dollar kit. Fact is Brackets work , and caster does not need to be adjusted with such low lift heights...Dude running no sway bar is MUCH more dangerous than having a trac-bar bracket...not even a comparison...I know this from continual firsthand experience.
Saying that Zone and BDS aren't the same is just silly, I have called and talked to them.....yup, and have firsthand experience to back up what the internets tell me to be true in terms of performance. Again with the assumptions.....I keep hearing how every single lift apart from a select few companies will implode into a blackhole and be the ultimate downfall of humanity... in my personal experience that is just not true apart from the well known lemon lifts out and about.
End of the day, OME is great I know this because guys like Todd and many others run it and are happy, but that doesn't mean there are not other cost effective reasonable ways for guys to get into 4wheelin.
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Since I've been mentioned a few times...
my vote is definitely for AEV. You WILL spend a bit more $$ on it, but it seriously drives like a cadillac on the pavement and it's a smooth, smooth ride off-road. I have ridden in Todd's OME lift (W Squared) and although it's a nice stiff suspension, I find it a bit hard on the rough trails. The AEV relocates your steering components, track bar, and levels off the JK so it rides flat. I have NO COMPLAINTS on or off-road. When this eventually goes, it will be another AEV to replace it.
I would definitely suggest you do your research... I rode in 4 different lifted JKs before deciding on mine. If you want to go for a ride to try out the AEV let me know. I'll let you try it out. :)
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Since I've been mentioned a few times...
I have ridden in Todd's OME lift (W Squared) and although it's a nice stiff suspension, I find it a bit hard on the rough trails.
Hmmmm,
T and I run the same lift......set up a little differently perhaps...but essentially the same. Mine is anything but rough on the trails and handles extremely well. As a couple of people here can attest I am a big fan of the skinny pedal "Baja time Ron?" or perhaps a little Dukes of Hazzard Wilderness roads?
In the end find your budget...........do your research.........and get what you want. Every one of us here has the best rigs that wheel the best and have perfect on road behavior :)
If I had nothing but time and money I would stick with the OME and add coil overs.............beef up the steering and even with my mini van engine I would be perfectly happy (ok maybe gears and a supercharger too)..........actually I am pretty happy with what I have now.
You can always get better...........somebody will always have better than you...........and in the end it is mechanical and if you wheel it long enough and at the maximum of it and your capability something will break.........know your limits (both financially and in terms of what your rig will do) and live within it............otherwise you will find it parked.
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You can always get better...........somebody will always have better than you...........and in the end it is mechanical and if you wheel it long enough and at the maximum of it and your capability something will break.........know your limits (both financially and in terms of what your rig will do) and live within it............otherwise you will find it parked.
This is possibly some of the best advice I've come across on here.
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Mine is anything but rough on the trails and handles extremely well. As a couple of people here can attest I am a big fan of the skinny pedal "Baja time Ron?" or perhaps a little Dukes of Hazzard Wilderness roads?
I think that the difference is that mine has a few more miles on it, bumpstops that don't offer the same "squishy" stoppage of bumps that they used to, and 3/4" less uptravel on the front right hand side courtesy of the track bar mount integrated into the truss.
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I think that the difference is that mine has a few more miles on it, bumpstops that don't offer the same "squishy" stoppage of bumps that they used to, and 3/4" less uptravel on the front right hand side courtesy of the track bar mount integrated into the truss.
Interesting as a few more miles has a tendency to SOFTEN things up ;)
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Chris, i don't think it really matters what spacers you use. they're all made of the same stuff i do believe. and all will affect geometry/ride the same. (assuming its the same height)
but don't cheap out on shocks; that is the most important thing. run Bilsteins or those OME nitros? if they're so good (never ran em, so i can't comment. lots of people swear by em. i do run bilsteins. they are worth every penny)
i've run just about every cheap shock you can name (skycrapper, Rough country, Rubicon Express, rusty's, procomp, rancho, zone) and they're all the same; crap, last a year tops then you replace them.
i had a rubicon shock last no longer than a few weeks before it leaked.
so ya. spacer lift? get what you want. but don't cheap out on the shocks.
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Interesting as a few more miles has a tendency to SOFTEN things up ;)
The harshness that Jeepgrl was referring to was the front right bumpstop. You're right, the miles have softened up the coils and the shocks don't dampen quite as much as they used to....combine that with reduced uptravel...and yeah, it's an irritant for me. I'm just gritting my teeth and bearing with it until I decide whether to go ACOS/Air bump combo, or go with coilovers and air bumps up front. Well, I need to have some some funds on hand before I do that too. :-[