Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: 89cherokee on September 12, 2012, 08:10:01 PM
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Hey guys im looking at trading my magnum RT for a truck so i can keep out of trouble and get my rig out to the trails on the trailer. Just wondering what you guys are using as tow rigs?
Ive had lots of offers on 1/2 tons, but im not quite sure thats enough for my setup. (hitch is only rated to 5000 lbs)
this is the trailer with the job box and the jeep that will be on it usually
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/B1K3R/photo5.jpg)
do you guys think i can get away with a 1/2 ton or should i look at something more capable? i didnt get a good feel towing it home as it was a short trip and i was taking it easy with the borrowed ram 1500 in the picture
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(http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/av9inch/23E9A153-484C-4CE7-A2BC-593462BB7400-8142-0000093C08D290D0.jpg)
I chose a 24 valve cummins 2500. Why?
I drive 10,000kms usually every 3 weeks/per month.
Just rolled over 400,000kms (only replace ball joints, lift pump, and brake the last 100,000kms)
872km per tank (90l tank)
And diesels cheaper than gas ;)
I'm sure spinal guy will agree. Except I chose 24 valve so I can switch the program from towing to fuel economy easily.
Oh and I only paid $10k for my truck last year.
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Go with a 3/4 ton. Won't regret it. My dad and I towed jeeps/mustangs for years with his halfton ford. It works, but we used a friend's F250 one time....and it's a whole different ballgame. So much easier and safer with the larger brakes, load capacity and extra power. We're on the hunt for an F250 as we speak!
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There are a lot of things to factor in.
Are you going to drive it daily? How far? Can you plug it in during winter?
How much are you towing and how often? How much do you think you will tow in the future?
Will you ever put a camper on it?
Based on my personal experience:
Under 7000# -1/2ton
7000#-10,000# -occasional-1/2ton
-a lot - 3/4ton gas or diesel
Over 10,000#-diesel 3/4ton
If you add a camper into any of that go staight to a 3/4ton diesel, consider a dually.
Gas vs diesel. If you just tow with it then go for a diesel. If you plan to daily drive it then consider that most people's commute to work is not long enough to allow a diesel to get a good work out. Diesels, in particular the new ones with DEF and DPF systems, do NOT take well to short drives and need to be worked hard regularly. Otherwise the emissions systems start to act up and cause you grief. This combined with the cold starting issues that can happen in winter would make a gas truck a better daily driver. Gas and diesel prices jump all over, one week I'm paying less for diesel and the next week its more.
Based on the trailer in your pic you are pulling around 7000# and the fact that you are trading in your car that you plan to spend a fair amount on it and daily drive it I suggest either a gas 3/4ton or keep the car and buy an older diesel that you use just for towing and a 2nd vehicle.
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Oh and never mind what the hitch says. Most trucks come with a hitch thats undersized for the truck and need to be upgraded anyway.
My 2001 3500 dually had the exact same hitch on it from the dealer as my sister's 2001 1500. Both rated for 7000#. I replaced mine shortly after getting the truck.
Also if you do get a 1/2ton add some rear air bags to it. Made a huge difference on my sister's 1500.
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I would agree with clay. The other thing to consider is diesel vs gas. The power in anything 2000 and newer in a 3/4 ton gas has more than enough juice to pull 10 to 15 thousand pounds. Yes you will be able to handle hills at a higher speed and you fuel economy will be better but the premium for a diesel is high. Take a look at gas 3/4 tons vs diesels in the used market and you will have to drive it a lot to pay for the additional initial cost plus the higher maintenance. If you lose an injector or turbo that's 5K plus. When it's -30 you will also love your gas truck when your toes are not frozen on the side of the road when your diesel gels up.
I've had both and don't get me wrong, in the case of AV Nine and his mileage I would take the occasional cold mornings and possible freeze ups for the longevity of a cummins. I drive a 2011 F150 and haul 6 to 7 thousand with no issues but I have also pulled a 24' car hauler with just shy of 10K total weight and I would have given my left arm for a 3/4 or 1 ton suspension and brakes.
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those 6L chevy 3/4 are a good truck. hard on fuel but you cannot kill them - and the resale on diesels is so high. stay away from the ford 5.4 gassers (like to shoot spark plugs out) and ford 6L and 6.4L diesels (tow truck drivers love them - they pay for their morgages)
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those 6L chevy 3/4 are a good truck. hard on fuel but you cannot kill them - and the resale on diesels is so high. stay away from the ford 5.4 gassers (like to shoot spark plugs out) and ford 6L and 6.4L diesels (tow truck drivers love them - they pay for their morgages)
What's so bad about 6l and 6.4 fords?
Dingman
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What's so bad about 6l and 6.4 fords?
Dingman
The 6.0L ford diesel has head issues, hi pressure oil pump, injector issues. If heads or gaskets need replacing you're pulling the cab off. It can be done without pulling the cab but it's more of a pain. 6.4L seems to be much nicer then the 6.0L, but any major engine work still needs the cab to be removed.
If diesel is your route then the cummins is the easiest to work on.
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It will be my daily driver and the only workout it will see is towing the jeep around. Oddly enough someone wants to trade me an 08 chevy 2500hd with the 6 litre gas. Think ill go for that.
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That 6.0 gas is a great motor. It should be a great hauler and not horrible on fuel as long as you stay off the floor all the time lol
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That 6.0 gas is a great motor. It should be a great hauler and not horrible on fuel as long as you stay off the floor all the time lol
Good to hear. Ill set something up than. Gonna be a sad day seeing my car but i wont miss the tickets and insurance and lawyer fees lol.
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If you want to haul any thing don't use gas it cost way to much in fuel. Gas is for daily driving and getting grocery and if a ford well that is another story!!!!! ;)
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It will be my daily driver and the only workout it will see is towing the jeep around. Oddly enough someone wants to trade me an 08 chevy 2500hd with the 6 litre gas. Think ill go for that.
my brother is a gm mechanic and swears by the 6L. Just be prepared for the fuel economy - 14 mpg empty is the usual. I think he saw 17 once but must have been drafting my truck lol. He has no problem towing his 7000 lbs empty toy hauler.
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I towed TJ to Moab a few years ago with 2003 GM 2500 with 6.0 5 spd - got 10-11 mpg.
Another guy with me had a new 2500 with 6.0 auto and did about 8-9 mpg hauling a fifth wheel.
We both bought diesels when we got back.
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i agree with AV NINE.
3/4 ton diesel.
if you find an old 12V Cummins you can not go wrong (except for a $500 upgrade to the front end).
The 98 thru 03 is a good 24V truck.
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The main concern with the 98 to 03 cummins is the transmission. If you did happen to find a stick you are golden. The automatics are toast with 200K plus. At the end of the day you will save on fuel marginally in town but the highway or towing is where you will see the benefit. It's the Injectors and turbos that's a killer in any of them.
If you tow 30% of the time or more, spend the extra and go diesel. I just love my nice warm gas truck when the temp drops below -10 lol
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Make sure you get a 4wd. 2wd tow vehicles SUCK.
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The main concern with the 98 to 03 cummins is the transmission. If you did happen to find a stick you are golden. The automatics are toast with 200K plus. At the end of the day you will save on fuel marginally in town but the highway or towing is where you will see the benefit. It's the Injectors and turbos that's a killer in any of them.
If you tow 30% of the time or more, spend the extra and go diesel. I just love my nice warm gas truck when the temp drops below -10 lol
Very true for the 12V Cummins generation as well. Auto's will gernade eventually. i also do not get great mileage as i have the 4.10 gears and big heavy meats. But i did tow my travel trailer (25 feet) with a bunch of stuff in the box to Koocanusa. i averaged about 120 km/hr. i did the calculations and ended up at 11.5 mpg.
In the city i get about 15. On highway if empty i get 17.
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That is for sure the major benefit of the diesel. My parents have a cummins diesel pusher motorhome and they get about 8 to 10 mpg towing a grand Cherokee. Their gas used to get half of that but also paid another 40 thousand for the freight liner chassis and motor.
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Looks like my old man ended up with an 08 F250 5.4L, no more towin jeeps with a halfton:)
I wanted to mention that a buddy of mine is a die hard ford man.....but his tow rig is a 93 3500 Ram with a Cummins and 5 speed. He's rebuilt the transmission once years ago, and it recently shat the bed to the point where the case is screwed. It's got a little over 500,000 MILES. USA truck! He hauls all over bc and Alberta with it. So even an older Cummins would get my vote, over any of the Ford/Chevrolet offerings.
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Anything Cummins for sure, I'm in the market for one too as my rig is trail only. as for keeping warm in the winter with a Diesel, you can get electric cab heaters which give you instant heat while the diesel warms up.
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Looks like my old man ended up with an 08 F250 5.4L, no more towin jeeps with a halfton:)
My condolences to your father. The 5.4 has got to be among Ford's biggest mistake. I'm fleet mechanic for an almost all Ford fleet. We replace LOTS of 5.4s but hardly anything else. The variable valve timing system is crap. It uses oil pressure to adjust the valve timing. As the motor ages it starts to lose oil pressure. Still has enough to lube the engine but not enough to operate the valve timing. Motor starts knocking and missing. Only option is a rebuild to bring the pressure back up. We've tried my other solutions, change oil grades, block/limiter kits, always ends up the same, scrap the truck or if its still in decent shape replace the motor. It tops my list of crap designs.
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Anything Cummins for sure, I'm in the market for one too as my rig is trail only. as for keeping warm in the winter with a Diesel, you can get electric cab heaters which give you instant heat while the diesel warms up.
The issue isn't so much cab heat as it is the motor not warming up fully to for the emission systems to operate properly. Sitting at idle(or even high idle) most diesels will never fully warm up at -20C temps. On a newer diesel this causes massive problems with the emissions systems which are immediately evident. On an older diesel this causes uncompleted burn of fuel resulting in cylinder wash down, increased wear of the rings and oi dilution. Not a big deal if you use it occasionally for a short run to work but doing that every day is going to shorten its life span.
A good option is an Espar/Webasto heater. It pulls a small amount of fuel from the tank and burns it to keep the engine coolant at near operating temps. This way you don't need to let it idle, start and go and its operating temp. Downside is the system is pricey. $3000+
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My condolences to your father. The 5.4 has got to be among Ford's biggest mistake. I'm fleet mechanic for an almost all Ford fleet. We replace LOTS of 5.4s but hardly anything else. The variable valve timing system is crap. It uses oil pressure to adjust the valve timing. As the motor ages it starts to lose oil pressure. Still has enough to lube the engine but not enough to operate the valve timing. Motor starts knocking and missing. Only option is a rebuild to bring the pressure back up. We've tried my other solutions, change oil grades, block/limiter kits, always ends up the same, scrap the truck or if its still in decent shape replace the motor. It tops my list of crap designs.
OK good to know Clay. Any advice is good advice. I've heard of lots of spark plug issues, but I think the went to one piece plugs in 2007.at some point. I've also heard of lots of cam phaser problems......is that what you are talking about?
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Very important to remember to use the correct weight oil and a motorcraft filter on the 5.4L. Most of the 5.4 cam phaser issues are from incorrect oil weights and cheap filters.
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FL820S Motorcraft Filter and 5W20 8)
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OK good to know Clay. Any advice is good advice. I've heard of lots of spark plug issues, but I think the went to one piece plugs in 2007.at some point. I've also heard of lots of cam phaser problems......is that what you are talking about?
Yep cam phasers. Sometimes its just worn out/broken chain guides or a failed cam phaser but in our experience much past 200,000kms if it starts acting up and the phasers and chain and guides are all good its only a matter of time before that engine in coming out. At that point switching it over to 15w40 buys a bit of time, but not a lot.
When bought filters by the case from Ford and have the correct oil in bulk, didn't make much of a difference. Mind you our trucks operate in the worst conditions. High dust/dirt environment with lots of idle time.
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Its weird my 97 Cummins warms up quickly even in -25. i get good heat within 1km of leaving home. i do plug it in overnight on a timer (about 3 hours prior to starting) i leave it idling while i shower/shave. Probably 20 mins total idle and than 1km later good heat!
But, i do have the truck in the shop for new interior with heated seats :P
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Ya those old 12Vs are rocks, almost nothing can kill them. Any of the newer stuff with emissions crap on it is more temperamental. Even so if its smoking at all during that 20min idle time you're getting cylinder wash down and oil dilution. Regular oil changes help alleviate that but over the long/long term it will cause a shortened life span. Although for what you use it for the tranny would probably go first.
Shortend life span has a different meaning when talking about a million mile motor. :D
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Ya those old 12Vs are rocks, almost nothing can kill them. Any of the newer stuff with emissions crap on it is more temperamental. Even so if its smoking at all during that 20min idle time you're getting cylinder wash down and oil dilution. Regular oil changes help alleviate that but over the long/long term it will cause a shortened life span. Although for what you use it for the tranny would probably go first.
Shortend life span has a different meaning when talking about a million mile motor. :D
It doesn't smoke, well maybe a whisper but no black. Not noticeable anyways.
Tranny gernaded, i expected it would. 2 faulty installs later the 3rd NEW tranny works great.
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The dodge stock autos are not the greatest
I build dodge diesel trannys all the time. Upgraded to handle the power for people
I have another one being picked up tomorrow
Soo keep a budget for tranny if u get one
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I'm running a 2011 ram 3500 Laramie dually, tuned and on 33's with rockstar xd rims. This rig used to tow our bogger out before me and my bro both got jeeps.
However she will be getting traded in as soon as dodge let's me place an order for a 2013 in December.
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I'm running a 2011 ram 3500 Laramie dually, tuned and on 33's with rockstar xd rims. This rig used to tow our bogger out before me and my bro both got jeeps.
However she will be getting traded in as soon as dodge let's me place an order for a 2013 in December.
I thought you were cool until you admitted you had rock stars lol
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hahaha well they look good on a dually i can say that
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/393258_10150420686762618_864581238_n.jpg)
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hahaha well they look good on a dually i can say that
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/393258_10150420686762618_864581238_n.jpg)
nope, they don't :D
but at least they match the chrome wind deflectors ;)
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hahaha well they look good on a dually i can say that
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/393258_10150420686762618_864581238_n.jpg)
are you one of those guys that has white sunglasses and parks in 2 - 4 stalls everywhere he goes because your vehicle doesn't physically fit in one stall and you think its cooler/more expensive than everyone else so you can justify parking like a douche?
or are you one of those guys that goes out of his way back it into a stall a little further away so its in the lines (or on the lines judging from your pic) ?
disclaimer: i don't really care which category you fall into. to each his own. i just get fumed off when i goto the gym and theres 30 parking stalls and 10 rig rockets parked all crooked etc. maybe its an okotoks thing.......
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LOL this truck gets backed into every stall. and shes always between the lines unless it sticks outs on both sides which happens from time to time.
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When was the last time you were at the gym. Probably the same as me, when Okotoks didn't have a Tim's lol
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7x a week john ;) i live there. you can see it, its the maroon old man looking GMC quad cab parked in between the lines lmao.
just grinding your gears skippy, theres a guy with a dually at the gym, i swear its lifted and on like 40s. it doesn't even come close to fitting anywhere.
literally parks right in the middle of 4 stalls. when i had the TJ it was no big deal, i could still park behind it lol
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7x a week john ;) i live there. you can see it, its the maroon old man looking GMC quad cab parked in between the lines lmao.
just grinding your gears skippy, theres a guy with a dually at the gym, i swear its lifted and on like 40s. it doesn't even come close to fitting anywhere.
literally parks right in the middle of 4 stalls. when i had the TJ it was no big deal, i could still park behind it lol
lol My record is 16 stalls with a trailer :P
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Yep cam phasers. Sometimes its just worn out/broken chain guides or a failed cam phaser but in our experience much past 200,000kms if it starts acting up and the phasers and chain and guides are all good its only a matter of time before that engine in coming out. At that point switching it over to 15w40 buys a bit of time, but not a lot.
When bought filters by the case from Ford and have the correct oil in bulk, didn't make much of a difference. Mind you our trucks operate in the worst conditions. High dust/dirt environment with lots of idle time.
Ok gotcha. The truck we're looking at is an 08 with 65,000 KMS. Now I'm not sure if it's going to happen. Seller seems really shady about it (kijiji) We live 5 hrs away, and are planning a trip to go look at it. He's since re-listed it for double the price he was asking.....
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I am selling mine, if not check our airdrie chrysler they are way better priced than other dealers in calgary.