Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Land Issues, Trail Projects & Trail Stewardship => Topic started by: EVOLUTION on July 11, 2007, 01:09:12 PM
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Incase no one ventures over to our forums, I thought I would post up here. This is the email I received from Roger Meyer (CC'd to several other governmental/SRD figures) regarding the cleanup efforts in the OHV Areas, followed by the email I sent back.
I have not yet received anything back but I am curious as to what they will say. Just keeping you informed.
Not even a thank you from SRD so far... :roll: I think I got in more trouble fixing the areas than I would if I went out & destroyed them.
Erin
I got your email address from Blair Code of the Calgary Jeep Association. Please give me a call to discuss the efforts your group made on the weekend and how we would like to work together to try and improve conditions in the Mclean Creek Off Highway Vehicle Forest Land Use Zone. There are a number of things that groups like yours can do to help look after the area that does not require any special permit from SRD or the RCMP. Examples of these activities are;
Removal of garbage from the area. This includes both the trails and the random camping areas.
Removal of deadfall from the trails. No cutting of live trees without prior authorization from SRD
Providing drainage of wet areas on the trails by hand work.
Some examples of things that need prior authorization would be;
The fencing project that was shown on the news article by Global Television. This is a multiple use area and other users need to be consulted prior to work being completed. The area is a grazing allotment and fencing without consulting the local rancher may cause issues with their operations. This is an active gas field with sour gas pipelines in the area. Drilling post holes without prior authorization could have serious consequences.
Moving and or removal of vehicles that have been abandoned in the area. The process that is in place regarding abandoned vehicles is that 1. SRD creates an occurrence report on the vehicle. This is done whether the vehicle is found by SRD staff or is being reported by the public. 2. SRD forwards a copy of the occurrence report to the local RCMP detachment. 3. The RCMP create a file and investigate. 4. Once the RCMP investigation is complete, the vehicle can be removed from the area. It is at this stage that we have appreciated the help of people like Blair Code in the retrieval and removal of the abandoned vehicles if the RCMP does not have the vehicle removed by a towing company. Until the RCMP give permission to remove the vehicle, the site is considered to be a crime scene and must not be disturbed until the police have finished their investigation.
Any type of structures to be installed; i.e culverts, bridges
SRD has started to build a good relationship with a core group of volunteers from the Off Highway Vehicle community and want this group of people to grow. Please give me a call or respond to this email as we are interested in working together within the policies and regulations that govern the area. Local Officers are Frankie Kerr for the Ghost FLUZ and Mike Thompson for the McLean FLUZ. We do have a process in place for groups like yours for project work in these zones and would be happy to walk you through the process
Roger Meyer RPFT
Land Management Planning Forester
Sustainable Resource Development
Public Lands and Forests Division
8660 Bearspaw Dam Road NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada T3L 1S4
Tel 403/297-8815
Fax 403/297-8803
Email [email protected]
Mr. Meyer,
I thank you for taking the time to write me this email and explaining the rules & regulations to me. I was unaware of what does go on in the process of vehicle extraction and cleaning up the OHV areas and it is kind of you to properly educate me as to what I was to be doing. Proper education is the most important step towards rules & regulations being followed. Education is what we have been trying to push towards for many years so the users of the area know what they need to do to keep the areas clean & useable for all of the OHV community.
Mr.Meyer, I am going to be frank with you because I believe this may be the only chance that I have a voice. I have volunteered with several organizations that “have a good relationship” with the SRD. I have volunteered many hours and many dollars out of my own pocket to help save these trails and these areas. I assist in organizing groups for picking up garbage on a monthly basis. I have been part of the crew that does large trail fixes, building bridges, fixing mud holes. I have met with Trout Unlimited Canada on several occasions to see what we can do as 4x4 users to have a working relationship with them. TU was extremely helpful in educating us as to why the fish habitats have the potential to be disturbed and started working with us to make every trail in Waiparous useable, without hurting any of the habitats or dropping siltation into the water in the event of the 100 year flood where our drinking water will be affected.
My husband Clayton Kraatz owns Evolution Machining & Fabrication in Calgary. He lives and breathes trucks… his business is just that… TRUCKS. He has donated so many dollars and so many materials the new bridges that went up in Waiparous and McLean over the last few years, not to mention he has shut the shop down for the days to build them. He assisted Dave Dunlop in cutting up and putting in those large bridges in Waiparous last year. He works along with the AURS on a daily basis and always does whatever he can to help. This is just the beginning… he has done so much for the community that I don’t even know where to start.
We did this all for what? For a closed sign to be slapped in our faces and the fingers to be pointed at trucks for the blame.
Have you ever had something that you loved so dearly and had worked so hard at to keep? It makes you feel empty inside when it’s gone. Like, all those days you spent fighting for something and it was all just so someone else could take it away and say it was because of you.
Mr. Meyer, the problem we have in these areas should not be singled out as trucks, or vehicles over 800 lbs. The fingers should point towards the lack of education to any users about the back country, about the OHV areas, about the fish habitats, about the rivers, lakes and streams, about the garbage, about cutting down live trees or not using deadfall, or even just the common sense of garbage and what it’s doing to our environment.
I have been pushing towards OHV licensing, user fees, larger fines and enforcement and I will continue to push for these until I am blue in the face. McLean Creek is a DESIGNATED OHV area. I believe it is the only designated OHV area in Western Canada. So why are we allowing people with no OHV’s to random camp? I strongly believe that if you get rid of the grad parties, the teenagers that only come out on May Long Weekend and anyone who wishes to random camp without an OHV, and issue a user fee of a few hundred dollars a year you will get rid of most of the problem.
How many destroyed vehicles are left there each weekend? How many of them are just off the main road? Do you think a responsible OHV enthusiast would bring a CAR out to an OHV area, let alone trash & burn it?
I understand the SRD has to be made aware of the vehicles and they were aware. I asked everyone around who was there if they knew about it and they all said yes. So if the SRD knows about it, why wasn’t the RCMP called right away? Why must vehicles be left there until they are burnt or destroyed? We pulled them out to the main areas so they would easily be picked up by the SRD. A lot of times they are just left there for months and it’s an eyesore. It is what they film on the news and what they love to see. Here’s an OHV area cluttered with burnt up cars…. It MUST be the trucks!
The fencing project we did is wide open. We knew it was a grazing area so we left a lot of room for the cows to get in, all we did was block off the main entrance to the newly developing bog so the OHV’s couldn’t get in by easy access. I do apologize for not consulting the farmer and if you have a name, I would gladly contact that person to discuss the fence. If the farmer would like it removed, then we will remove it but I want to see what his thoughts are on it.
Culverts and bridges I have worked with before so I know to get a permit. I was in the process of getting ideas for bridges with Trout Unlimited when we got the news that Waiparous was closed.
Mr. Meyer, I am begging you to please let the users have a voice. We do so much with your organization – we give and give and give…. And it seems like we never get heard. From my point of view it is like we are being set up for failure. It’s almost like you WANT to see these areas closed and that you WANT to see the blame put on 4x4 users.
I would love to have a working relationship with SRD and I will do anything I can for these areas. A part of me inside wonders if what I am doing is going to matter, or are they going to just shut everything down anyway? I already know what we need to do to save it…. I just need to know that the efforts we put in every day are going to keep what little we have left open.
It all begins with EDUCATION. WE as 4x4 users need YOUR help and your support too. Help us push towards larger fines, ENFORCEMENT, OHV licensing and user fees… as well as banning any person random camping without an OHV.
My husband and I would love to meet with you and your group in person to speak about our concerns and how we can work together towards saving our trails and cleaning up our areas. Please let me know when a convenient time would be and we will be there. You may contact me at 710-9641 or Clayton at 616-9414. We look forward to hearing from you.
Thank you again for your time and consideration in this matter.
Sincerely,
Erin Kraatz
Truck enthusiast
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Great letter Erin, I appreciate all and any efforts that have gone into trying to save Mclean as the area it SHOULD be, before they just take the easy route out and shut it all down. There does need to be more RCMP out there because enforcing rules would be very easy considering the trashed cars and littered garbage is only a km or two off the main Mclean trail.
It sounds like there is hope, but it also sounds like they are still counting on the "book" to solve the problems. For the trashed cars to be left exactly where they are is just asking for more problems, the RCMP need to be notified right away to investigate and remove. Every single car Ive looked at out there have VIN's on them, that should make tracking the owners almost too easy..
thanks for your efforts.
Jonas
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OHV areas are meant for all users. Friends and I have used McLean for random camping and to get out to the woods before we had Jeeps. We hiked in, and rode our mountain bikes. Some adventurous friends even drove their cars in to our favourite camp sites and got stuck on the way. We always carried out our garbage, left our camp sites in fine condition and never left a bicycle, tent or car behind. Disallowing random camping without an OHV would have discriminated against us and many other responsible users; for that reason I can't support that idea.
I also can't support user fees, nor licensing of OHVs to use OHV areas. Alberta is a rich province and can afford to operate their parks. There are no fees to hike, cycle, climb or camp in the high country (backcountry) in Alberta's parks and wildlands. McLean should be no different. I believe enforcement of the existing regulations is the answer to the idiots who should know better. Education in the form of discussion of the issues and rules in high schools, and public service ads on TV and radio would go along ways to educating the ignorant. Alberta can certainly afford to do this considering what they do spend money on.
McLean and all OHV areas are meant for all users including Jeeps and trucks.
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great letter Erin......
Education to encourage responsible ohv use and random camping is key. So is enforcement to ensure that people are not "abusing" the great privledge on having areas like Maclean, IG and the Ghost.
I whole heartly support the user fee movement ... either through a OHV license or a Back Country pass.... i hope people would realize that they are paying to maintain this privledge instead of thinking it is their right to go out to the bush make a bleeping mess...either with their OHV's or their beer bottles and garbage.
great work. hope to see the waggy at the S n S
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I agree with Tom (Asia) on the user fee's. I would pay a user fee if it was implemented. But all of the OHV areas are on crown/provincial land, all Albertans should have access to our land. It belongs to the people of this province, why should I have to pay again for something that my tax dollars already pay for.
Even though us ohv'ers use areas like maclean and waiparous, So do others as well. You often see people taking their families out for the occasional picnic. Places like 4 corners at waiparous are easily accessible in regular passenger vehicles. Why should people pay to drive out there and have a little picnic and fire by the side of the river?
If there were specific designated OHV areas, I would be more agreeble to fees. But my understanding is that the only Government Authorized OHV area in western Canada is Maclean creek.
SRD tolerates OHV's in other area, but my guess that is because they don't really know what to do about the whole OHV issue.
Random camping is an issue I can't decide on. But the rules need to be fair and equal to all users. Maybe maclean should ban all random camping. It would be unfair to allow OHV'ers to camp, but not allow the hunters, fishermen, Hikers, mountain bikers to camp.
Or maybe they should follow GAMP and limit random camping areas.
Enforcement of existing rules are the way to go. SRD and RCMP have quads, bikes and 4x4's, they should put them to use and get off maclean creek trail. If it was known that you were going to see a group of law enforcers coming though your camping spot at 1am. Maybe things would quieten down a bit.
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Clay & I have a meeting with Roger Meyer next week to discuss our thoughts. You have brought up some good points... I will definitely bring them up.
If there is anything you would like us to bring up at the meeting, now is your chance... this might be the only time we're ever heard by them so lets make it count!
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I fully support the idea of user fees or a yearly back country pass/ license for motorized off road vehicles.
A back country license would be no different then a hunting tag or fishing license. Use of Alberta’s back country is the use of a finite resource and a fee is a method of rationing its usage. This is an established methodology for rationing any limited resource that does not have a fee established in the market through supply and demand. I think fees should apply to use of all motorized off road vehicles, quad, bike and truck. The fee could very depending on the class of vehicle. Considering what we pay for in fuel, modifications and repairs I would gladly pay up to $500 per year as a license fee.
This type of system would work best if the government linked the license to an education requirement. (“Tread Lightly” style of info). For the first time users established clubs could be issued open passes to bring first time users out on a club pass and again reinforce some of the trail education we need to see users following. If even a portion of the fees generated when into enforcement and trail maintenance we could, in a short time, have a world class tail system that had funding to keep it sustainable. With a license in place it would add a new form of enforcement, break the rules and the government can pull your license.
Yes, I agree enforcement of the current rules would help but a license fee would provide funds, from the user groups, to increase that level of enforcement and could provide the additional benefits of education and additional tools for that enforcement.
Ian just as your signature says “MEMBERSHIP HAS ITS PERKS” so would a license.
These are just my thoughts and not the official position of the club or all of its members. I know some of the other member I have talked to agree. Ian I would be glad to debate this issue with you and Tom at the next meeting.
Lots of posts on our site and in other sites have suggested user fees. Well what does that mean? Let’s talk about how we would see that type of a system working so if we ask for it we have some specific suggestions to add to the discussion. What do others think?
Blair
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Although Tom and Ian's thoughts are admirable, sadly they are unrealistic of what the future holds for OHV use, specifically 4x4's.
We lost Waiporous, we lost IG. Whatever we have done in the past did not work. Its a new future and i personally would pay any amount to ensure we are still wheelin in 50 years.
TK 8)
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IMO, there needs to be licensing. Licensing after you have taken a course on off road usage... Big fines if found without a license. Big fines if found breaking the rules.
This is what they are doing in Australia. The 4WD clubs set up a structured training system and every club gets people trained as trainers. Each club then holds annual training sessions. It is a 1000 times more arganized there. The 4WD clubs have national and state organizations that exist to deal with the government.
The normal off roader is properly trained and things like recoveries are orders of magnitude safer than what I typically see around here.
All state forestry areas require a permit. The permit is free, but it allows the local rangers to control and monitor access as needed.
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First off I don't think the politicians will ever approve an off road tax (user fee). They get enough crap from people now over excessive taxation.
Fishing licences, hunting licences, win cards are something you carry in your wallet. Would an off ohv licence operate the same way? Just a piece of paper you have in your pocket. There's no enforcement out there now so how will anyone know if the operator of that ohv you see on the trail has a licence. I'm not going to pull him over and ask are you?
You could put a sticker on a licence plate or on the vehicle. Does that mean. You would have to buy seperate licence for your quad and your jeep? How about if you have a bike as well.
How about if you have two or three kids and are living on a low income, Now you have to find enough money for 3 or 4 licences every year. I know someone who barely manages to scrape enough money to keep his own and his kids beater bikes together. If he has find more money for licences, his kids are done riding.
Let me state again if there was a user fee, I would begrudgingly pay it. But I can afford it, so many people can't.
PS. If we are going to turn this into a big debate, lets do it here on the forum. These debates always get heated at the meetings and drag the meetings on for hours.
If this gets out of control with name calling, there will be moderation
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First off I don't think the politicians will ever approve an off road tax (user fee). They get enough crap from people now over excessive taxation.
Fishing licences, hunting licences, win cards are something you carry in your wallet. Would an off ohv licence operate the same way? Just a piece of paper you have in your pocket. There's no enforcement out there now so how will anyone know if the operator of that ohv you see on the trail has a licence. I'm not going to pull him over and ask are you?
Vehicle registration slips and license have been issued for years just like the hunting license and fishing license what would make it so difficult.
You could put a sticker on a licence plate or on the vehicle. Does that mean. You would have to buy seperate licence for your quad and your jeep? How about if you have a bike as well.
Don't you already need a separate liscense for all of the above or do you just transfer the one license over depending on what you use that day
How about if you have two or three kids and are living on a low income, Now you have to find enough money for 3 or 4 licences every year. I know someone who barely manages to scrape enough money to keep his own and his kids beater bikes together. If he has find more money for licences, his kids are done riding.
Am I mistaken or does low income have a different meaning for some. If you have any type of motorized toy for all your young ones to play with while out camping I don't think you fall in the low income category. What happened to legos and tonka toys for the little people to enjoy? If I had things my way anybody under the age of 14 would not be enjoying the controls of a motorized vehicle while on public land. The last few years while random camping I've seen far too many people pull into the area and throw the kids the keys and away they go totally unsupervised. Ripping up and down the meadows without any thought of staying on a road or out of the rivers.
Let me state again if there was a user fee, I would begrudgingly pay it. But I can afford it, so many people can't.
Personally I'd be willing to pay up to $1000 bucks per year if it meant the funds would go back to maintenance of the trail system and area, enforcment would be beefed up and the riff raff were kept out of the areas.
PS. If we are going to turn this into a big debate, lets do it here on the forum. These debates always get heated at the meetings and drag the meetings on for hours.
If this gets out of control with name calling, there will be moderation
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i don't believe in user fees such as fishing license type(s).
i do believe in a user licensing / education program designed and implemented just like they have now for boat operators.
as for the random camping, grad party junk, enforcement.
i do feel it is a tough battle being that this is alberta and ranchers are a huge economy and have a loud united voice that is listened to.
i would like to hear or read more about the system mention above in australia but that sounds like something that would require many groups across canada united, as well as lawyers and geologists etc. costly and time consuming but might be the only hope.
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First off I don't think the politicians will ever approve an off road tax (user fee). They get enough crap from people now over excessive taxation.
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Fishing licences, hunting licences, win cards are something you carry in your wallet. Would an off ohv licence operate the same way? Just a piece of paper you have in your pocket. There's no enforcement out there now so how will anyone know if the operator of that ohv you see on the trail has a licence. I'm not going to pull him over and ask are you?
Vehicle registration slips and license have been issued for years just like the hunting license and fishing license what would make it so difficult.
No, it would be easy, but since there is no enforcement why bother, Is SRD really going to chase down a bike to see if you have a licence with you. They should, but will they
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You could put a sticker on a licence plate or on the vehicle. Does that mean. You would have to buy seperate licence for your quad and your jeep? How about if you have a bike as well.
Don't you already need a separate liscense for all of the above or do you just transfer the one license over depending on what you use that day
Yes you need a sepearate licence for eash but at the moment they don't have a sticker for a $500 off road use fee.You could probably get a way with putting a bike plate on a quad without getting noticed, But a bike plate on a pickup may arouse suspiction.
Try explaining why you licence plate is registered to honda quad when you are sitting on a KTM bike
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How about if you have two or three kids and are living on a low income, Now you have to find enough money for 3 or 4 licences every year. I know someone who barely manages to scrape enough money to keep his own and his kids beater bikes together. If he has find more money for licences, his kids are done riding.
Am I mistaken or does low income have a different meaning for some. If you have any type of motorized toy for all your young ones to play with while out camping I don't think you fall in the low income category. What happened to legos and tonka toys for the little people to enjoy? If I had things my way anybody under the age of 14 would not be enjoying the controls of a motorized vehicle while on public land. The last few years while random camping I've seen far too many people pull into the area and throw the kids the keys and away they go totally unsupervised. Ripping up and down the meadows without any thought of staying on a road or out of the rivers.
This particular friend has begged and borrowed riding gear for kids. Has found some used and worn out bikes and fixed them up. He can get parts at cost. Less than $1000 invested over a couple of years.
agreed on the kids being unsupervised, but lots of kids are supervised by responsible parents, and we have all seen riders over 14 doing the same irresponsible behavior
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Let me state again if there was a user fee, I would begrudgingly pay it. But I can afford it, so many people can't.
Personally I'd be willing to pay up to $1000 bucks per year if it meant the funds would go back to maintenance of the trail system and area, enforcment would be beefed up and the riff raff were kept out of the areas.
Do you really think the money will go into trail repair? or will it just disappear into the wood work with the rest of our tax dollars.
Enforcement of existing rules would help so much. Especially the alcohol and drug related ones
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PS. If we are going to turn this into a big debate, lets do it here on the forum. These debates always get heated at the meetings and drag the meetings on for hours.
If this gets out of control with name calling, there will be moderation
edited: I messed up, I cut and pasted this bit to another post
Sorry
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We can all agree that May Long is always the problem. Really, any other weekend and there is far less b.s.
A total ban on alcohol for May Long would be fantastic.
Tom
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We can all agree that May Long is always the problem. Really, any other weekend and there is far less b.s.
A total ban on alcohol for May Long would be fantastic.
Tom
They do that in Manitoba in Provincial areas...
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Most times in Manitoba alcohol is banned on May long in the provincial parks. We have had incidents here that brought that in place.
Does Alberta already have Provincial Park passes? The kind that hang on the front windsheild mirror? A small yearly fee and one of these tags hanging in the window for you may work. The tags are easily identifiable by the Parks service as each year they are color coded.
Something like that may be a suggestion for you in Alberta for OHV areas. Just making the fee for the pass a little steeper and stiff fines for violators could curb a lot of the bad behavior that is closing your trails. A booklet could also be handed out to those who buy the pass with the rules and penalties listed. So when someone gets caught by the SRD or RCMP they can't plead ignorance as they had the book.
Anyone could buy the pass to access the area and the money could be put toward the trail maintainence and enforcement. The Provincial park passes we have are ussually about $25.00. Increasing that to $50.00 for OHV users may keep some of the bad apples at bay.
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Most times in Manitoba alcohol is banned on May long in the provincial parks. We have had incidents here that brought that in place.
Does Alberta already have Provincial Park passes? The kind that hang on the front windsheild mirror? A small yearly fee and one of these tags hanging in the window for you may work. The tags are easily identifiable by the Parks service as each year they are color coded.
Something like that may be a suggestion for you in Alberta for OHV areas. Just making the fee for the pass a little steeper and stiff fines for violators could curb a lot of the bad behavior that is closing your trails. A booklet could also be handed out to those who buy the pass with the rules and penalties listed. So when someone gets caught by the SRD or RCMP they can't plead ignorance as they had the book.
Anyone could buy the pass to access the area and the money could be put toward the trail maintainence and enforcement. The Provincial park passes we have are ussually about $25.00. Increasing that to $50.00 for OHV users may keep some of the bad apples at bay.
Thats exactly what I was thinking of basing this on... just like the Banff Park passes we get. We pay a yearly, or daily fee for a single person or a family pass...
All the money would (hopefully) go back to the trails... 8)
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It seems that I am in the minority on user fees.
If user fees are put in place. How would they be administrated? An annual pass would be no problem, you could pick that up when you renew your licence plates.
How and where would you pick up a weekend pass? The national parks, like Banff, have a manned gate you drive through where you can purchase a pass. The OHV areas don't and it really isn't practical to build and man buildings at all of these areas.
90yjgimp. I don't think there are any Provincial Parks that you need a pass for in Alberta, But pass's are needed for the Federal National parks.
I like the idea of handing out a rule book with the pass.
Will fee's stop the party crowd from going out and raising hell in the ohv areas ?
Maybe, if there is enforcement.
If SRD and the RCMP steps up the enforcement, are we, the responsible users, going to bitch and complain about heavy handed enforcement?
Because we know that one of us will get ticketed for something we feel we shouldn't have :)
Or are we going to just shutup and pay the fine and consider it part and parcel of the whole wheeling experience. I have heard stories from people who have been to places like Moab in the U.S. They are very strict, if you put a wheel off the authorized trail you will at the very least get talked to by a trail guardian.
Are we still going to whine and complain because we got a ticket for no mudflaps on Maclean Creek trail?
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In our case in Manitoba. Provincial park passes are distributed the same as fishing licenses. At some local conveinience stores and the Parks conservation offices. Weekend and day passes are ussually done at the Provincial and Federal park entrances. I agree that the having a gated booth at OHV areas may be considered inconveineint by the SRD. Here, the money from our Park Passes is used to pay for such employees that do man the booths and maintain the parks.
Enforcement is part and partial to having an OHV pass, it would have to be heavily enforced for it to work. I agree that if it not enforced no one will care and just travel the trail anyway. Example: A local snowmobile club here has winter designated trails. Anyone travelling these trails is required to have a snowpass which covers trail grooming cost and such. Their biggest problem is people who use the trail anyway as it is not enforced enough and the fines are not stiff enough.
The certain violations would have to carry a heavy fine to make anyone think twice about breaking one of the violations. Is it easier to pay for a $50.00 OHV yearly pass or pay $1000.00 if caught without one.
Banning alcohol at certain time does a lot to curb long weekend incidents. People here complained plenty when long weekend bans were put in place, but have accepted it as the damage to our parks and littering has declined. The parks here looked like garbage dumps after long weekends and now its not half as bad.
I agree that user fees suck. Are the trails so much of a right or are they more of a privalige. Its a tough call that up to Albertans, I'm just a guy from Manitoba.
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Ian,
when i went to Telico to wheel in their National Forest, there were unmanned booths at all entrances. You self administer your payment, grab the paper and make it visible. Local officers on quads do random checks. Big fines for non compliance.
Very much like most campgrounds we visit here in Alberta. Maclen Creek has one such self administered campground...Fisher Creek campground.
Tom 8)
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Ian, funny you should quote my response and then ask if I would support a no booze in random camping areas. I haven't even touched as much as a beer socially for over 15 years. Our club also has a very strict no booze on the trail policy and its adhered to. I also see the effects of booze in users that frequent the trails. I have the next best thing to no respect for those that idulge while in control of a motorized vehicle. I guess from those comments I think you can gather for yourself where I would stand on that issue.
The Moab comment has me baffled though and I;ve seen it stated many times by different people. I've been down there about 8 times now and I can not remember seeing any enforcement on the trails what so ever on any trip. The people down there on the other hand are the ones that would normally mention the fact that you should remain on the trail.
The users are the ones with far more respect for the trails than you see up here by many. Is that education or the fact they have fought for years for the trails they have and most people know they could loose it with the wrong attitude. I just wonder if its really the responsibility of our government or SRD to have to hold peoples hands and teach them proper trail ediquette or if thats something that should come from responsible users. Surely people that wonder off trail to hit a mud hole 10' away should have some common sense to realize that they are probably doing everyone harm. People that drive up and down streams should have the smarts to know that its probably one fo the stupidist things you can do no matter what type of base the river bottom has. If only they would use those smarts and know that its detrimental to our fight for trails by doing something so senseless.
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Gun,
i do not think anyone was talking about drinking on trails. It may be your club policy but it also happens to be everyone's policy as well from responsible users. Wobbly pops are best served in camp. We are referring to an alcohol ban 24/7.
Moab during Easter jeep safari is more patrolled, something we would like on May Long.
And yes you do have to hold people's hand...unfortunately
UNLESS
SRD and RCMP impounded the irresponsible 4x4's, quads and bikes. HUGE fine, no vehicle back and you would see a very quick turn around in behavior.
TK 8)
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I give up with forum boards. :? I guess you failed to see my point of banning alcohol in any respect would have no issue by me that's for sure.
Holding hands for teaching trail ediquette is not required by the government or ASRD. Common sense and back country respect should be common sense by anybody.
Policing is goverment and ASRD responsibility. I'm in full support of idiots having vehicle confiscated. Running rivers...trucks gone. Crossing rivers responsibly is a different story.
Bogging in wetlands....trucks gone, following the trail and going thru mud holes carefully and responsibly is again a different story.
High user fees equals money to fill in mud bogs and make mud holes passable by high percentage of users. Fencing projects, bridges and so on.
Its not rocket science to have ASRD spot a visible sticker like the Banff Park gates on a rig or not. If there isn't one then sorry but you're just not welcome to use the area.
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Don't give up on forum boards Gunther. Your input was great.
We will not be the ones that get to plan this type of system but if the Gov. reads the comments it might help them in setting up a system that could work. If a user fee or license program was to be implemented in the province it would take this type of discussion of ideas to come up with a good system.
It was suggested no booze. No problem with me on that one. Most of the established clubs will not tolerate drinking on trail runs so it only comes down to the question of alcohol and camping. I think random camping will need to be more and more restricted as the population in southern Alberta increases. While random camping is currently the issue that has caused us to loose one of our areas to wheel in it is a separate issue from user fees for OHV user. Maybe the solution is if you want to have a beer around the camp fire stay in an organized camp ground provincial or private. That is what our group did on the July long weekend and it work very well. The extra cost of the campground was fine with me if it keeps the trails open for wheeling.
What I am getting form the posts above is
So a license system would have lots of logistic problems. That’s a given. With any new system it would need to have infrastructure to make it work with the who’s, what, where and how’s worked through. Some people will try to cheat the system but that always happens. The question is would a properly implemented system reduce the impact on the environment and leave responsible users access to trails? Some of Ian’s points are good ones too consider if planning how a system would best work.
Some of us would be willing to pay a high fee per year while others will be price sensitive. Ok some may loose out on the off road part of the activity but that is part of user fees. The rationing of a finite resource through user fees will reduced the number of users. The question is how much would we want to see it reduced. High fee cost and lots of users will drop out of the hobby. That would increases the sustainability of the activity and trail system. However, fewer users reduces the size of our combined voices. The level of the fee is a very important point and would have big impact on how a system could or would work. What level of fee would generate the most funds for enforcement and education? Lots of users paying $50-$100 per year or substantially fewer users paying $500-$1,000 per year. The highest level of funds generated for sustainability of the program might be used as one measure in establishing a balance in how much the fee should be. Other issues should also be considered. I would hope it would be a fee for all motorized use.
It would not work without the enforcement and education part of a program. Without enforcement it would have no impact. Part of the funds received from any off road license program would need to go to enforcement and education and not into the general revenue of the provincial government.
The input is great. Lets keep the thread running.
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Gun,
i was just clarifying the alcohol issue in how it may of been perceived from your response, no biggie 8)
Yes, they do have to hold our hands was a sarcastic attempt bringing to light that everything we have tried has failed as more and more 'idiots' come out to play every year. Even with internet education, the pics and videos still show ALLOWED but irresponsible use. What i mean is playing in mudholes near staging areas. With no rules and regulations set up and NO ENFORCEMENT of these activities, the user feels it is allowed, which it is, but it hurts us so bad public perception wise. Set up the rules and regs (not like GAMP, a complete and absurd set of trail designations) and than enforce them HEAVILY! :twisted:
TK 8)
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Gunther the alcohol comment was not directed at you or the FWS in any way whatsoever, I know the club has a strict no alcohol policy on the trail.
My apologies. Sometimes I type before I think, I should have put those comments in a seperate post.
Just for the record i don't drink either, I had a couple of beers about two years ago,that's been about it since a new years resolution jan 1 1990, the only resolution that has ever worked for me :)
So a total alcohol ban is fine by me as well. Our club has a strict no alcohol on the trail rule as well.
I've never been to moab, that is just stories I have heard, first hand though, can't think who at the moment, it will come to me.
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Cut and pasted from a previous post
Alot of people enjoy a cold beer at the campfire at the end of the day? would you support all ohv areas as being alcohol free. That would make it easier for the RCMP to confiscate booze at their checkstops they have on the long weekend. If everyone was sober that would solve a lot of issues. The grad parties would have to go somewhere else.
My daughter is going into grade 12 next year. I talked to her about this years grad party. I was quite surprised to find out that parents load up the kids and take them to an area to party it up. That way the party doesn't get uninvited guests as the kids don't know where they are going.
Is that what happened at IG? Was the kids parents that took them to an OHV area?
Anyway back on topic.
If it meant keeping OHV areas open to 4x4's would you( the 4 wheeling community) support a total alcohol ban in the off roading areas. :?:
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Anyway back on topic.
If it meant keeping OHV areas open to 4x4's would you( the 4 wheeling community) support a total alcohol ban in the off roading areas. :?:
My answer is simply...NO. i do not equate the problems of 4x4 bans with alcohol consumption. i see the problem as where 4x4's choose to play as opposed to choosing trail runs. Banning alcohol will not stop 4x4's and quads from doing OFF TRAIL skegs, mudholes, etc.
If i could pay to camp and have my beer than i would do that. If we eliminated random camping and put in paid designated camping, i think that would solve the problems. No user fees as the $ from camping could be put back into the system.(well at least a percentage).
My camping/wheelin/riding/racing experience includes a bevy at the end of the day. i enjoy a few around the fire. The 'idiot' factor could be held more accountable in a paid setting.
However, if it was a 100% ban on alcohol than i would not support it. i have many years left to enjoy the backcountry and i really enjoy a bevy at the end of a day.
Do i need an alcoholic beverage? No.
Is it part of my OHV adventure experience? Yes. i can't wait to have a cold beer after i finish a race. It tastes so darn good. i deserve it too.
Personally, what i see as the downfall to 4x4's and quads specifically is not booze and behavior but stupid decisions regarding choices of wheelin spots. Not trails but all the holes and skegs near camp areas, access roads and staging areas. We could learn a lot from the bike community. No one ever sees them. They ride nowhere near sight lines.
Removing booze will not stop the public sightings of irresponsible 4x4 and quad behavior. It will get rid of teens and grad parties though.
Good night, i have a race to travel to in Racehorse Creek. i have a few cold ones for the experience.
TK
8)
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To be honest, I'm getting tired of seeing these "how to fix things" threads. Don't get me wrong, the ideas are great (well some of them anyways :shock: ) but none of them will provide us with a solution that will work.
This is the government's problem, not ours. The lack of enforcement is the root cause. Implementing user fees, restricting alcohol, requiring permits, etc will not solve the problem at this point in time (or ever for that fact). Enforcement will be required to support the ideas presented in this thread. If the government is not providing enough enforcement now, how are they going to handle enforcing more?
We need to start focusing on this base problem. There is nothing you can suggest that will work, or get us out of this predicament, or make things better until we get adequate enforcement. We have a police service in the populated areas that we live in. Why? Because there are certain individuals that need to be put in check (or put away) for the greater good of the population. What makes the backcountry any different?
My correspondence with the government on the new Land Use Framework is also giving me the impression that adequate enforcement, again, will not be addressed. This is something all user groups should be pushing for, not just the 4x4 community.
IMO the lack of adequate enforcement is the only reason we are in the situation we are in today. Notice that I didn't mention education. Why? Because its out there, its always been out there, and it will continue to be out there.
Any form of recreation done responsibly should not cause problems.
kln
Fred: "Lets go out and trash the backcountry this weekend."
Bill: "We need to stop and get our permit on the way out of town."
Fred: "K."
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Ok, to further add to this topic, because it has been a very good one so far...
kln: Dont you think that ENFORCEMENT leads to EDUCATION? I think the two go hand in hand & we need BOTH.
You say education is out there? How many people who use the backcountry know what the difference between a Riparian area and a wetland is? How many people know WHY it is not ok to use deadfall for fires? How many people know why the Department of Fisheries and other environmental groups want the trails shut down?
What sort of general education do people have about our areas & how to properly respect them? Not very much... my own family member thought it was ok to go ripping through skeg on his bike until I EDUCATED him as to why it is not ok...
If you ask my opinion... education AND enforcement are lacking & this is where we are going wrong. I was told a few years ago that there aren't many rangers working because they can't afford them. We are the richest province in North America and they can't afford to pay a ranger? Maybe thats where money from userfees will come in handy... I don't know.
On that note... you think the clearcutting in Mclean is bad now... just wait. This is just the beginning to the plan they already have in place.
http://www.nowpublic.com/maclean_creek_clear_cut
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On that note... you think the clearcutting in Mclean is bad now... just wait. This is just the beginning to the plan they already have in place.
My understanding is that this coming winter 07/08 will be the last for logging at Maclean.
Then they are moving up to ghost country as that is where pine beetles have been found.
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On that note... you think the clearcutting in Mclean is bad now... just wait. This is just the beginning to the plan they already have in place.
My understanding is that this coming winter 07/08 will be the last for logging at Maclean.
Then they are moving up to ghost country as that is where pine beetles have been found.
You are correct Ian. It has been moved up to finish this year. The sawmill has been very good to the riding community. We flag our trails and they keep them 'clean' for us. Unfortunately, the blowdown this year was more than anyone could have imagined happening.
They are off to Waiporous. i do believe it is the Hunter Valley/Harold Creek area. i will contact them to see if we (the 4x4 community) flags the trails in Harold Creek, will they also show us the respect thay have shown the bike community.
If we had a few guys on bikes and quads, we could flag Harold Creek in a day easily.
i know Harold creek is closed to 4x4's but....