Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => General Talk => Topic started by: calltrex on October 21, 2007, 02:18:26 PM
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What not to do...
Never go on the trails by your self. 2 guys in 1 jeep burning around and they got stuck. Water at hood. They also sucked water into the engine so that was dead also.
Oh ya. They also did not have any tow points on front or rear. No bumper on the front.
Anyways they walked for 3hrs back to the store. Nightime was cold out..
We just happened to be meeting for a night run. CJA went to see if we could get his jeep out and then pumped the water out of the engine and pull started it to get it running again.
They were just lucky that we were meeting there at that time.
(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc101/calltrex/DSCN0213_resize.jpg)
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Ouch.
Hopefully you offered to join in the CJA and learn some things.
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Ouch.
Hopefully you offered to join in the CJA and learn some things.
You mean he. not me
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Very good job and community service guys. Excellent job to Dava and the crew on the night run.
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I swear, every time I ever went to Maclean, somebody has approached our group with similar curcumstances.
Oh, and nice intake horn on the airbox, maybe he should have had it pointed up instead of down, may have reduced the water intake.
Vince
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Ouch.
Hopefully you offered to join in the CJA and learn some things.
You mean he. not me
Uh...yeah. :lol:
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I swear, every time I ever went to Maclean, somebody has approached our group with similar curcumstances.
Oh, and nice intake horn on the airbox, maybe he should have had it pointed up instead of down, may have reduced the water intake.
Vince
i hear you Vince. We actually started saying NO. And if they are drunk, they can stay there. If they were in an area they were not supposed to be, we left them. After the initial NO, we charged minimum $100 to go see if it was recoverable. And than the meter started. Really, if you called Lemon aid Jay, you would pay and i see no reason that i need to wear and tear my rig to help out the stereotypical 'walker' from the woods. Now, if i am on trail and come across a stranded soiltary rig, i will help as long as not drunk and not stuck in an area we should not be...and no charge :lol:
i really believe its the under prepared that are the major reason we lose trails so my compassion is much less over the years. They are the ones playing where we should not be, drinking and driving,etc
i really wanted to wheel last night but my wife and i had to go support a cousin in a play. i am glad i never made it because i would not have been as gracious as you all were.
Jaded maybe but more tired of wasting my wheelin adventures to help out 'walkers'. With the internet there is no excuse to not be prepared;ie...tow hooks and recovery gear.
And when these guys don't get help, they learn quickly...the hard way
:twisted:
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Thread Killer? :oops:
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I agree with you Tom...although, I have been there myself. Mind you...that WAS before the inet filled me in so much. I bet they were having a great time until that happened. Let's hope they don't do it again.
I hope someone told them what they did was stupid...maybe they'll think twice next time...and maybe they'll join a club.
So much for treading lightly. :roll:
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we charged minimum $100
I'm not from around here but to charge another 4X4'er money for a tug out of a water hole is just wrong...hell i've spent many hours being tow'd out of the woods myself and i've spent just as many hours pulling people i didnt know out aswell and i never heard the word "money" and thats the way it should be if you ask me.
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I should keep my mouth shut but I decided not to. I personaly would have helped them. The 3 hr walk and embarassment I am sure they went through when you guys helped them out I am sure will make them think twice next time they want to go out. I was in a group that helped people in the same situation but they spent the night out in the winter stuck in their rig and they did learn their lesson. lol. Besides aren't we all out there to have fun and help each other out in the 4x4 community?
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i am glad people are speaking up. There is no 'right' answer just opinions.
i will clarify Lance. IF i am on trail anywhere i will not charge...ever. IF i am on trail and come across someone stuck and drunk, they will remain stuck. IF i come across someone stuck and 'off trail' , ie; CLOSED SENSITIVE area, i will leave them stuck. Count on this.
Now as someone who has come out of a wheelin trip at Maclean and packing up at the store to head home 'countless' times where a 'walker' asks for help, i have done it many times...no charge, no reimbursement for wrecked straps, wrecked winchline, time, gas,etc. All for the LOVE of my fellow 4x4 enthusiasts.
Fast forward to the internet world. Info is so readily available that as a NEWBIE you really have no excuse for doing solo adventures UNPREPARED. So, if they walk out and call a rescue truck like Extreme (years ago) or LemonAid Jay now, they will wait longer and they will PAY. Paying me $100 for my time is reasonable. In this day and age of areas being shut down, the evidence seems to support the "newbie" not in a club or on a 4x4 forum as the culprits. When i see any thread regarding closures, its preaching to the choir because anyone on these sites KNOWS better. Its the one timer MUD finding crowd that is killing us, so i have changed my good citizen attitude a bit.
Tom
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My 2 cents
It depends on circumstance , if they are drunk or doped up they can stay put 'till they sober up, but I've never ran in to that situation.
More often it is a newbie who just bought a 4x4 and is totally clueless as to what can happen out there, I will help those guys out (I was one :) ) let them know about the different clubs and sometimes point them in the right direction, Kia's and Lada's to the FWS :lol: for instance
I'm not going to leave someone stuck in the bush, espeacially if the weather is bad, I would have a hard time living with myself if they got hurt or worse trying to hike out.
But I'm not going to damage my jeep trying to get them unstuck, if it's going to be a major extraction, they can ride out with me and call out Lemon-aid jay or someone like that.
edit: what about the liability issue. If the persons vehicle was to roll or flop while I was attached with a tow strap, would they come after me??? I imagine extreme and lemonaid have insurance for that, I know the city tow trucks do.
Totally agree with Tom, I am absolutely not going off approved trails to help anyone.
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The weird thing is that this only happens at Maclean where 'walkers' show up. i have never been approached by walkers anywhere else. So, i guess its at Maclean that i have this position. It is also Maclean that is a crap show on Long weekends.
As for letting someone die due to weather? For $100 they can live :lol:
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Im more prepared then most people. I even got a whole set of cooling hoses. Even a extra winchline if mine breaks...
But I still have never gone out by myself and dont plan on it anytime soon...
Hes lucky Rick offered to go help because I dought I would have....
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lol..... thank god he had the water proof seat covers.....
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I began wheeling solo and occassionally still do, I agree that it's better to go in a group and fully prepared. When wheeling solo you have to be alot more cautious about where you go - I always check out obstacles before considering tackling them and err on the side of caution. I have gotten stuck and had to walk out :oops: :lol: . I've had total strangers help me out when I needed it. I've helped total strangers recover their rigs. I've provided basic first aid for hours to total strangers who needed it. No money has ever changed hands nor was any asked for.
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just for the record my experience wasn't at Mclean.
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Okay, granted, I'm not a CJA member. I live too far away for me to be a member, and currently don't own a running rig. I don't get out often, so I don't help others - simply because I'm not there to do so.
However, I'm opinionated, so I'm going to have my say and state my suggestion for what it's worth. :lol:
Tom's reaction is not one to be blasted, as after volunteering to do anything for so many times, anyone can get tired of helping out. It doesn't matter if it is doing a bingo for your kid's sports team, filling in on an executive council, or pulling out a stuck rig for a newbie....it all gets tired after a while. And charging something for wear and tear on your rig is reasonable, IMO.
On the other hand, if I was a newbie who got myself into trouble and when asking for help, someone offered to relieve me of $100 or leave my rig there, I would pay but certainly feel that I was taken advantage of (especially being a newbie, not realizing how many times this occurs, how stupid I had been, etc.)
So how do we reconcile all of this, help to cut down the number of times this happens, and feel good about it all at the same time?
Tell said newbie this: "We'll help you out, but as it is our time and wear and tear on our rigs, and you'll have to call someone anyway, you're going to have to pay something for the assistance. It's going to be $25 for each driver and rig involved (whether both are stuck or not). This money will go towards you getting a CJA membership where you can go out with others who will show you how to keep this from happening. You'll get access to a website with loads of information at your fingertips, and best of all, you'll keep you and your rig safe from this happening in the future. " Take their name and info, and submit it for a membership. If you don't want them to be sumbitting the names of any yahoos at all, create a rookie membership for these circumstances, or conditional membership, or whatever.
If you want to charge on top of that, that would be on your conscience, as I can't tell you how much your time is worth, same as you can't do the same for me.
This way, each stuck newbie at least gets themself a membership in a 4x4 club, learns something, and hopefully gets the word around to other newbies. Yes, they might feel they're getting taken advantage of, but at least they get something long-term for their cash that will help everyone.
Rant over. 8)
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Nice, very nice... I like it dunl :D ....
People make mistakes if they don't know what they do is wrong.
It's all about educating the folks out there...
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For me it has a lot of do with what the person is like. If the person is an idiot and under the influence, they can learn the hard way. As I will not abuse my vehicle for some idiot to go do it again.
Now if it was a newbie and an honest mistake then I will help them out and try to edumacte and show them the light. Yes I have helped people out many times and it has resulted in damage to my vehicle once. So I personally am more on the side of Spinalguy.
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I usually just leave them there and then come back in the middle of the night to steal their wheels and tires.
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Tell said newbie this: "We'll help you out, but as it is our time and wear and tear on our rigs, and you'll have to call someone anyway, you're going to have to pay something for the assistance. It's going to be $25 for each driver and rig involved (whether both are stuck or not). This money will go towards you getting a CJA membership where you can go out with others who will show you how to keep this from happening. You'll get access to a website with loads of information at your fingertips, and best of all, you'll keep you and your rig safe from this happening in the future. " Take their name and info, and submit it for a membership. If you don't want them to be sumbitting the names of any yahoos at all, create a rookie membership for these circumstances, or conditional membership, or whatever.
NO...
But we could discuss this at the next meeting..
first off they may not have a jeep. I am 100% in favor of advising them about the club and the meetings etc.
We could take donations to the CJA trail fund.
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NO...
But we could discuss this at the next meeting..
first off they may not have a jeep. I am 100% in favor of advising them about the club and the meetings etc.
We could take donations to the CJA trail fund.
Well yeah, I was thinking jeepers only, not other said 4x4's. Secondly, not drunks - too bad for them. Third, donations to a trail fund are great, but why pass up an opportunity to get someone in the club who obviously and sorely needs it?
Anyway, you guys know I'm not a CJA member - I'm just throwing some ideas out there for you and brainstorming. Hopefully there's something useful here that comes out of this situation, instead of yet another "what NOT to do" type post.... 8)
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Anyway, you guys know I'm not a CJA member - I'm just throwing some ideas out there for you and brainstorming. Hopefully there's something useful here that comes out of this situation, instead of yet another "what NOT to do" type post.... 8)
I don't totally disagree with what you stated, but it has a lot to do with the actual situation. There are definitely some merits there.
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I usually just leave them there and then come back in the middle of the night to steal their wheels and tires.
ha,ha,ha....nice :twisted:
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I don't totally disagree with what you stated, but it has a lot to do with the actual situation.
Oh, I know. Don't take that last comment of mine the wrong way - I just want you all to understand that I'm not trying to jump in here and tell the CJA how to run it's own business - and in no way would I think that you guys would take it that way, just making sure it' clear to all. :D
On the other hand:
I usually just leave them there and then come back in the middle of the night to steal their wheels and tires.
That type of club discount could have it's merits too - unfortunately, not everyone needs stock wheels all the time (which is what most of these guys end up getting stuck with). :lol:
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I began wheeling solo and occassionally still do, I agree that it's better to go in a group and fully prepared. When wheeling solo you have to be alot more cautious about where you go - I always check out obstacles before considering tackling them and err on the side of caution. I have gotten stuck and had to walk out :oops: :lol: . I've had total strangers help me out when I needed it. I've helped total strangers recover their rigs. I've provided basic first aid for hours to total strangers who needed it. No money has ever changed hands nor was any asked for.
Tom, could you give me your cell #? i would like to carry it with me so when the 'walker' makes his way to the store, i can give him your # as a person that would love to come out and get him.
:lol: :wink:
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Well yeah, I was thinking jeepers only, not other said 4x4's. Secondly, not drunks - too bad for them. Third, donations to a trail fund are great, but why pass up an opportunity to get someone in the club who obviously and sorely needs it?
Anyway, you guys know I'm not a CJA member - I'm just throwing some ideas out there for you and brainstorming. Hopefully there's something useful here that comes out of this situation, instead of yet another "what NOT to do" type post.... 8)
I guess the "NO" was a little abrupt, sorry :oops: All ideas are welcome,
and yes you are more than welcome to become a member :) The CJA needs members who are willing to help out and be a part of the club. We don't need members just for the sake of having their $50.
That still doesn't sound quite right, I hope you understand what I am poorly trying to say. I'm going to shut up now before I say something really stupid :lol:
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I understand completely what you'e saying, and apology accepted. :) I don't know why I keep thinking that the membership dues are $25 - charge them $50 and put it towards a membership. :lol:
Do it to collect and educate the members - don't do it to collect the money. Better to have them in the club or wheeling with experienced guys than going out solo again and hoping for the best. You could always barter with them to volunteer to help with a project in return for being pulled, but I bet you wouldn't see most of them again. Tell them they'll automatically become a member (even a novice or rookie member) of a bonafide 4x4 club of experienced members who can teach them the ropes and offer advice and tips for building their rig, and you're more likely to have them within your grasp where you can teach them to become respectable 4x4'ers. :wink:
I only went out once with some of you guys - and it was enough to know that there's an awful lot of knowledge to share with newcomers. 8)
All ideas are welcome,
and yes you are more than welcome to become a member
Thanks Ian...when I get the Willys going, I'll try to get down there again. :)
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two things to say 4wheelers do not help 4wheelers as much any more I am not sure why but they don't. I do allot more recovery's because of this. The other thing is if you charge someone to help them you are taking on the liability and if something goes wrong you can be held responsable for any damages or injury.
Lemon-aid jay :D
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The other thing is if you charge someone to help them you are taking on the liability and if something goes wrong you can be held responsable for any damages or injury.
Lemon-aid jay :D
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we all take on that responsibility regardless of charging or not, correct?
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The other thing is if you charge someone to help them you are taking on the liability and if something goes wrong you can be held responsable for any damages or injury.
Lemon-aid jay :D
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we all take on that responsibility regardless of charging or not, correct?
Not really it is allot easier for you to be held responsible if you charge for a service. If not you are just helping.
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Not really it is allot easier for you to be held responsible if you charge for a service. If not you are just helping.
So different rules for off-road as opposed to on-road?
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Not really it is allot easier for you to be held responsible if you charge for a service. If not you are just helping.
So different rules for off-road as opposed to on-road?
Maybe. This is what I have been told by my lawyer and it is the same reason I have such a detailed waiver. Waiver helps with insurance but it may not stop me from being sued.
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two things to say 4wheelers do not help 4wheelers as much any more I am not sure why but they don't. I do allot more recovery's because of this. The other thing is if you charge someone to help them you are taking on the liability and if something goes wrong you can be held responsable for any damages or injury.
Lemon-aid jay :D
I thought you were not doing it anymore?
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two things to say 4wheelers do not help 4wheelers as much any more I am not sure why but they don't. I do allot more recovery's because of this. The other thing is if you charge someone to help them you are taking on the liability and if something goes wrong you can be held responsable for any damages or injury.
Lemon-aid jay :D
I thought you were not doing it anymore?
you must have missed the post I am back :wink:
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is it not called the good samaritan law, which applies to first aid!!!! you offer they accept?
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Not really it is allot easier for you to be held responsible if you charge for a service. If not you are just helping.
So different rules for off-road as opposed to on-road?
My un-educated guess is the same rules apply, on and off road, if you ask for money you are not really being a "good samaritan" you are working for a fee, and therefore risk being liable for damages.
So maybe the best way is just to help out, or not.
Maybe a person could ask for a "donation" :wink: after a succesful extraction.
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Its the first time ive delt with strangers in need. wasted 2hrs of my time..
Its common sense not to go out in the muddy bush by yourself.. no matter what your doing..
If u take that risk by yourself.. get out of it yourself. call your friends whatever. Dont bother the people who come prepared..
None of this "i didnt know better" Its still common sense..
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Hey Spinalguy,
Yeah, no problem; the # is 278-7876 and tell them to ask for Tom :wink:
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Its the first time ive delt with strangers in need. wasted 2hrs of my time..
Its common sense not to go out in the muddy bush by yourself.. no matter what your doing..
If u take that risk by yourself.. get out of it yourself. call your friends whatever. Dont bother the people who come prepared..
None of this "i didnt know better" Its still common sense..
"Common sense" is, contrary to popular belief, actually "common". Unfortunately, it's just not GOOD sense. :lol:
If I wasn't willing to take the opportunity to educate someone who sorely needs it by helping them out and talking some sense into them, giving some direction, letting them know where to go for information on wheeling and experienced wheelers to wheel with......
I wouldn't complain about trail closures.
Just my opinion. :)
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Hey Spinalguy,
Yeah, no problem; the # is 278-7876 and tell them to ask for Tom :wink:
ha,ha,ha...nice 8)
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None of this "i didnt know better" Its still common sense..
AMEN BROTHER!!!!