Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Elsifer on December 14, 2007, 04:17:54 PM
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So round midnight last night coming home for the holidays from the field, there was a slow but sudden shudder, it built up, then BANG, I seen a spark fly off to my left, and then a repeated bang, bang, bang, till I pulled over.
Thankfully, another driver stopped and drove me the rest of the way home.
This happened just south of Carstairs, near the Acme overpass.
Went back this morning to await roadside assistance, snapped these pics, and now Airdrie Chrysler has my very hobbled Rubi.
(http://gallery.mac.com/chris.lobkowicz/100008/PC140007/web.jpg)
(http://gallery.mac.com/chris.lobkowicz/100008/PC140005/web.jpg)
(http://gallery.mac.com/chris.lobkowicz/100008/PC140011/web.jpg)
(http://gallery.mac.com/chris.lobkowicz/100008/PC140006/web.jpg)
As you can see, the case is quite literally exploded. No idea what, or why. There was plenty of fluid on the ground around it, and nearly everything around it is wet.
More pics here -> http://gallery.mac.com/chris.lobkowicz#100008
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oh my god dude. was it the 231J? my condollences. hopefully you can figure out what the hell happened.. one of the last times i was wheeling, the tj made a couple of loud BANG's under there somewhere untill i took it out of 4wd.
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That just sucks man, and right before Xmas too. Well, looks like the perfect opportunity to get an upgrade... ATLAS II maybe???
Phil :wink:
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Chris I drove past it this morning you should of called me
Hopefully warranty will cover it
It looks kinda like Bill's when his rear drive shaft seized
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I dont think it will be easy to find a ruby tcase used for cheap anyways
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Ah. Some ductape and oil and removed front driveshaft should do it. Make sure you don't run it without oil in it. :twisted:
Sorry man. That's a hard break for sure, especially with a rubi. Maybe you can sell me the front axle and just part out the rest as well. :P :twisted:
And yes, Bill's break was tough too. Especially since I kept thinking, the driveshaft should not be that tight. Maybe we should take a better look. Hmmmm. Still feel bad Bill. But look what he decided to do with his jeep in terms of upgrades eh?
All will be good again. How does $700 for the front axle grab you? I'll give you my D30, so you can keep driving yours if you choose to keep it. ;)
Good luck dude!! :)
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Well, the tcase was full of fluid before it blew up. Now, not so much.
Hopefully warranty covers this, if not, I think I'll put the heep in my garage and buy an atlas. And a truck as my daily driver.
There will be no parting out of my rubi, I'm still making payments. So if anything, I'll be putting same or better. So an atlas. Plus a new truck.
Its going to be an expensive christmas I think...
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Darn. Maybe you can make it into a 2wd dragster if you wanna sink money into it. I'll take the fornt D44 still. D30 is lighter for your purposes so the quter-mile times will be better with it. :):) Get an Atlas. They are good cases for sure.
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There was no sign before hand at all?
I might be selling mine. It has less then 1500 miles after DSI did a complete rebuild on it. I'll keep you informed Chris.
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There was no sign before hand at all?
Other than a shudder, that started small, then builtup quickly to a final resounding bang.
Thanks Bill, I'll find out what the dealership says on monday. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
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[Other than a shudder, that started small, then builtup quickly to a final resounding bang.
Any issues with the front driveshaft? "angry sparrows"?
A CV that seizes at speed can result in a multi-piece t-case.
Good luck with the dealer, I can't see why they would deny coverage.
Vince
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The might have been some angry sparrows, but I don't know. I didn't drive it much up north. Just highway miles back and forth.
Plus at highway speeds, with the wind noise, tire howl, and the stereo going, there isn't much else my ears can hear.
I can't find any paperwork regarding my warranty. Anyone off hand have the numbers for the 04's warranty??
Mine has 73000 km on it.
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The I can't find any paperwork regarding my warranty. Anyone off hand have the numbers for the 04's warranty??
Mine has 73000 km on it.
Didn't Chrysler have a 5 year / 160,000 km drivetrain warranty in 04
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That sucks Chris. Glad to hear your back in town but sorry about the T-case
Blair
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Just got off the phone with the Dealership.
$4500, no warranty. New tcase, new shaft, a cable, fluid and labour.
Methinks a tow into my garage, and a new truck are in order for me. :cry:
Because of the tires and lift, no warranty for me.
Anyone have a trailer capable of hauling a broken jeep?
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Is the rear shaft ok? A new front is only 230$. Used case 1000$.
Its less then a 2 hour job.
Let me know.
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Well, if I'm gonna repair the heep, I'll do it to original spec or better than original.
Plus, if I repair it and keep it as my DD, I'll mile out my lease.
If I buy a winter beater, I don't want to drive that back up north.
If I buy a quality used truck, I'll have something to drive to work up north, and to haul the heep.
Methinks a used F350 diesel is gonna be my xmas present, with an Atlas or a Stak come spring.
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Because of the tires and lift, no warranty for me.
Thats a load of BS and I would try to fight that one :evil:
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wtf... why did they nix your tcase?
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Which dealer did you take it to?
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take the lift off and borrow someones stock wheels and take it somwhere else...
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buddy... yer welcome to my 29's.
I can put the 33's on for a while.
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Chris, if you have to, I trailered my willys home a few weeks ago on a U-Haul for about $65...not a bad price, no limit on miles.
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Once denied, its recorded. Taking it somewhere else will just be a waste of money.
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You could always pick up a regular NP231 for a couple hundred and a used shaft just to get you back on the road real quick and then save up for an Atlas.
Did they have any ideas why it blew up?
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You could also try calling Chrysler, telling them you're a member of a local jeep club (no need to say which one), and tell them you're unsatisfied with th dealer response. Tell them all of us back here would like to hear what they say.
Be polite, be calm, and if you are unsatisfied, just explain to them why. You might not get it covered, but you might get something for your call, especially if you state you're with a "jeep" club.
If you don't act like some kind of radical, make sense, and explain your points clearly, that is exactly the type of individual they DON'T want going back to their Jeep buddies complaining about their products.
EDIT: I just noticed it was 73,000km... :shock:
"If the warranty is void because of the tires and lift and that caused the transfer case to explode on a highway at only 73000, how can you justify this vehicle as being rated for off-road use?"
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"If the warranty is void because of the tires and lift and that caused the transfer case to explode on a highway at only 73000, how can you justify this vehicle as being rated for off-road use?"
Exactly!
Well, I told them to drop the shafts, put em in the back seat, and prep it for towing. I had not much of a choice in where roadside took the vehicle, and they could have at least given me options, rather than a "Nope, we won't cover it". And no explanation as to the diagnosis either.
I'm not happy, they will know about my feelings, and as an opportunity to gain a customer, they certainly lost one.
At this point, I'm really tempted to leave the heep there, and stop paying my lease, and let Chrysler financial sort it out. But I'm not that type of person, but the though had crossed my mind to start over with a much older jeep.
Regardless, I'll take my jeep, keep the shattered tcase for posterity, and put it in my garage, and it will become my toy and project.
I picked up a truck, pics to follow tomorrow when I bring it home. I've postponed school till may/june, and I'm going back to work on Jan3. So by the time may comes, I'll have an atlas or a stak in it, and the jeep quite possibly paid for.
Blessing in disguise.
Look out MayLong.
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Ask the service manager to give you a detailed explanation, in writing, of why and how the lift and tires caused the failure. Keep asking questions, when he says the bigger tires put more stress on the t-case, ask him in what way, make him explain the physics involved.. When he says the lift caused unacceptable u-joint angles, ask him what is the maximum angle a Spicer u-joint can be operated at (and then go to Spicer to find out what is the maximum angle).
The point is, keep harassing him (but always be polite and courteous), make him put everything in writing, make him write you a book about the reason's for denial.
Do not threaten legal action unles you are prepared to go through with it. I read somewhere a few years ago that once the customer threaten's legal action, the dealership is advised to cease all communication with the customer and get their lawyers involved.
Don't back down too quick, keep challenging them. If they say something like they were advised by DC not to cover modified vehicles, tell him you want to see a copy of the correspondence from DC. If you keep asking for more and more details, the SM may just change his mind and cover it just to get rid of you.
I would keep it at the same dealer ond try a bit harder before taking it away. As Bill said, it is a waste of time taking it to another dealer once it's denied warranty.
In a nutshell, just become the biggest pain in the arse he has to deal with, but as always, remain polite. You don't want to give him a reason to refuse dealing with you. And always insist on talking to the same person, don't let them pass you around to different people.
Good luck.
Vince
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hey Chris, sorry to hear of the misfortune, perhaps the service mgr where you bought it or where serviced will go to bat for you on the warranty ... lift/tires sounds bogus ... you rubi looks almost stock ...
one thing I learned about chrysler and warranty is dont give up if your getting the shaft ...
for atlas get a price from gemini for advance adpt items
www.gemini-sales.com/
also, jbconversions has new 241OR t/c's rocktrac 4:1 for about 2100$ ...
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Unless the guy you deal with is an actual jeeper, and not all are, you will probably be able to show him the way around a jeep a lot better than he can. Therefore, Like Vince said, keep asking for details and have them explain, in writing, why they're denying it.
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Ask the service manager to give you a detailed explanation, in writing, of why and how the lift and tires caused the failure. Keep asking questions, when he says the bigger tires put more stress on the t-case, ask him in what way, make him explain the physics involved.. When he says the lift caused unacceptable u-joint angles, ask him what is the maximum angle a Spicer u-joint can be operated at (and then go to Spicer to find out what is the maximum angle).
The point is, keep harassing him (but always be polite and courteous), make him put everything in writing, make him write you a book about the reason's for denial.
Do not threaten legal action unles you are prepared to go through with it. I read somewhere a few years ago that once the customer threaten's legal action, the dealership is advised to cease all communication with the customer and get their lawyers involved.
Don't back down too quick, keep challenging them. If they say something like they were advised by DC not to cover modified vehicles, tell him you want to see a copy of the correspondence from DC. If you keep asking for more and more details, the SM may just change his mind and cover it just to get rid of you.
I would keep it at the same dealer ond try a bit harder before taking it away. As Bill said, it is a waste of time taking it to another dealer once it's denied warranty.
In a nutshell, just become the biggest pain in the arse he has to deal with, but as always, remain polite. You don't want to give him a reason to refuse dealing with you. And always insist on talking to the same person, don't let them pass you around to different people.
Good luck.
Vince
Good advice.
CJA used to be sponsored by that dealership.
Maybe mention that and how Troy Blaskin formerly of Blaskin and Lane spoke highly of them and their knowledge of lifted jeeps and not voiding warantees.
It is the responsibility of the dealership to PROVE the failure was a direct/indirect result of the modifications. i would pursue this to the end with written explanations.
PS, buy yourself an AMA plus card and you can tow it to where you want!
Good luck
8)
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AMA will only tow a vehicle once per break down. So if you used it to have it towed to shop and then decided not to have that shop fix it and want it towed elsewhere you are on your own.
In their eyes they are offering ROADSIDE assisstance. Once its at a shop they no longer consider it roadside. Now will they pick up your parts vehicle and move it to your new house if you were to move. Unless you know an AMA contractor who would fudge the report for you.
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Don't know if my situtation was any different but when my jeep broke down in Montana, I had it towed to Great Falls and then once the diagnosis came back I had it towed back to Calgary. The first trip just was a deduct from the total miles allowed on the membership
That 1 tow clause might only be for the basic membership
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Yep, AMA tows me all over :lol:
Twice i have been towed home and than towed to a shop.
i guess my point was that Elsifer could have been towed to any shop he choose or HOME. With Chrysler roadside assistance, its always towed to the CLOSEST dealership and that SUCKS :twisted:
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Oh, and lastly, if you talk to Rick, he can fill you in on a lot details.
If you do want a different shop (which I would recommend, I didnt notice where you where previously) I would go to them before hand, tell them you want to bring your rig in, and get a second opinion.
I would not waste my time at that location (or let them work on my junk having seen what happen to Ricks).
I'll probably get my hand slapped for all that, but oh well.
Pm me, or even easier, just give me a shout at home, and I can explain in a lot more detail.
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Can't you just put the more readily available and less expensive 231j into it and change the flange on your rear driveshaft to a yoke style? You could probably have everything back up and running for around $500. If at some point you want to drop in the Tera-Low 4:1 kit to get back to a normal gearing setup instead of the 3:1 the regular TJ has then you can do that too. The 231 has a better rep than the 241 anyways.
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Did it feel like it was in 4x4 ?
You didn't try to throw it in 4x4 on the highway did you ? :lol:
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Can't you just put the more readily available and less expensive 231j into it and change the flange on your rear driveshaft to a yoke style? You could probably have everything back up and running for around $500. If at some point you want to drop in the Tera-Low 4:1 kit to get back to a normal gearing setup instead of the 3:1 the regular TJ has then you can do that too. The 231 has a better rep than the 241 anyways.
What?
Where is the bad rep about the 241?
Have you seen both them taken apart? A 241 has a strength rating of nearly 5 times what a 231 has :roll:
Not sure where you get your info, but you need to stop listening to whoever is feeding you those lines...........
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I've never heard a 241 was "bad".. I've just read a 231 is more desirable in a JP magazine. Anyways, just trying to think of a solution to the problem.
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I wish I had a 241 , been day dreaming of how to build a superstrong 231 with deep gear reduction in low , extra wide chain , two low , at the end of the dream I decided it'd be cheaper to just go find a 241.
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I've never heard a 241 was "bad".. I've just read a 231 is more desirable in a JP magazine. Anyways, just trying to think of a solution to the problem.
Yeah, not that a 231 is bad either, but it just isnt nearly the amount of case a 241 is.
32 versus 27 spline outputs. Fixed output stock on 241's. 5500 ft lbs versus 1600ft lb torque ratings.
Bigger chain, bearings, and planetaries.
Only negative to a 241 is its length and height.
For Chris to get a 231 to work in his rubi he needs a VSS equpped SYE, 400$, and would need 2 new driveshafts 800$. In addition, a 4:1 conversion is 1300$
2500 vs 1000 to build and install an inferior case.
Wouldnt be my choice by anymeans.
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I wish I had a 241 , been day dreaming of how to build a superstrong 231 with deep gear reduction in low , extra wide chain , two low , at the end of the dream I decided it'd be cheaper to just go find a 241.
For that money Jeff, I can get you an atlas with cable shifters and 32 spline outputs front and rear.
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I've found a tcase, gently used, same as what blew up. So minimal effort to change it out, and deal with stuff like yokes, flanges, etc.
I'm still going to school in jan&feb, and not getting a new truck for dd.
I figured that 4th year rate and one vehicle is better than floating two vehicles at 3rd year rate.
I'll be back on the road the evening of the 28th. Thanks all for your input and suggestions.
The service manager would love to fix my heep, but he say its DC's policy not to warranty modified drivelines. I didn't ask for that policy on paper, nor did I press the issue further. Even when I displayed recommended driveline angles from spicer. So, I guess he or DC just don't want the headache. And I don't blame then, I can be quite a headache!
So, I am gonna fix it myself, and come august when I buy out my lease, DC will never see my rig again. Plain and simple.
Plus, I think that I will never buy another new DC vehicle again, I'd rather push a Ford than drive a Chev. And I've pushed my DC a few times!
Have a Happy HoHo, I know I will. I'm not wheeling boxing day, but you will see me in Jan&Feb on the trail.
Thanks all!
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you still need a tow?
you are entitled to warranty unless the vendor can prove the modification caused the problem.
This is the law. Why don't you pursue this a little further?
I would be prepared to take it up with them on your behalf , for a small fee......say 35% of the value of what I could get for you...lol..I am rarely denied any warranty that I am entitled to.. ;D.generally, discussing it for a few hours on a few occasions will solve the problem, they will just be sick of having to be polite to you while you chew them up and refute every point they make. The key is to be a complete a$$hole but very civil at the same time....ahhh a lost art, methinks! It can also work to ask questions, loudly enough for other customers to overhear, in an indignant tone, like "so if someone walks in here and buys a brand new jeep, you'll refuse warranty coverage just because they took it offroad?" it doesn't matter what you ask or what the answer is, just that the management begins to feel uncomfortable without having any justification to ask you to leave or stop dealing with you. Picketing is also a form of recourse that may be effective, often just the threat will get results. mention that a number of your buddies you talked to think this is BS and they're prepared to come down with their families and picket signs saying "don't trust jeep" or "warranty? What warranty?" or something.....many years ago a friend was not paid by a restaurant he had painted for....10 minutes of picketing and a cheque was in hand.....
If you want to write these guys off, do so. but I would try to squeeze them for every penny first. remember you paid for the warranty, you own it, you are entitled to it...it is not something they can just not do if they're not feeling nice.
The onus (legally speaking) is on them to prove that the problem was the result of your mods...this would not be possible to prove unless your lift wasexcessive but it looks like maybe only 2-3" over stock, no?
Good luck whatever you decide to do!
_Boone
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You could also bring it to Jeep, in front of all the THOUSANDS of jeepers, on their OFFICIAL JEEP facebook group.
Even just a short sentance and a link to this thread. That would be pretty embarrASSing.
Just a thought.
*There are 17'079 members of Jeeps official Facebook group. It grows by about 1 - 50 people a day.* /ed.
Jeeps advertising their facebook group off the official site here (bottom left of the page):
http://www.jeep.com/en/experience/community/index.html
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i'd at least contact jeep through their dispute resolution section in the user manual before i tried to make jeep look bad.
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i'd at least contact jeep through their dispute resolution section in the user manual before i tried to make jeep look bad.
true.
I got mad just reading this, so I can imagine what Elsifer is goin thru. I hope you can get this figured out.. I have had a bit of sour and grudging dealings with dealerships in the past.. it's unfortunite that some people out there dont want to go out of their way to fight for other people.
it is too bad for those guys though, nothing but a lose lose situation.
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yea but we got it good in canada in so many ways when it comes to consumer or personal protection. no matter what problem you have there are agencies out there that can help, and usually do help.
we don't have The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act that the US has but we have pretty close. maybe some day we'll get there.
http://camvap.ca/eng/consumers_guide.htm is what we have and they are pretty good from all I have read. only problem is, they won't fight for you over 3rd party accessories or items. i read a lot about them when i was looking into warranty issues with oils like amsoil and their 'doesn't void warranty' claims.
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Why was 4wd engaged at 120km/h on what looks like fairly dry pavement in the first place?
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i am pretty sure that he WAS NOT in 4wd on the highway at 120km/h. :P
with the way the jeeps are built with no selectable hubs on the front axle :D, the hole front assy turns all the way back to the chain spinning in the tcase. so if something grenades in the case and the piece jams in the chain spinning at that speed... well the pics show the result :o
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Reading about this warranty issue really burns me up. I had a ZJ that was plagued with tranny issues. Chrysler avoided replacing it at every cost and just patched the problem. The tranny went through 3 major repairs when it was owned by my aunt. The tranny eventually blew up and left her stranded on the highway. The local dealership said they would not cover the replacement of the trans, even though it was still under the warranty period. A letter to the president of Chrysler Canada is what it took to get the trans replaced. Now I'm not too sure what the exact problem was, but the trans whined loudly and shifted hard. This issue started at just under 3000km! The trans was replaced when I bought it, but I still had problems with it. Like when the CPU went and there were none available in North America....? ???
FWIW: If I were you, I would go to one of those Chrysler dealerships in town that have brand new vehicles (preferably a Jeep) which have aftermarket lifts on them and act as a potential buying customer. I would ask what the warranty coverage is on the vehicle now that the height has been modified with a lift and tires. I would find out as much as I can from someone at the dealership that is in a position to know, not assume, like the service manager. Ask if you could get something in writing verifying how the drivetrain warranty is affected by the fact that vehicle has been lifted and sold to you as a brand new vehicle.
I'd then write a letter to the head office of Chrysler Canada. Keep it factual and ask for a response as to why your major drivetrain component has been declined warranty coverage under the prescribed period. Ask them for answers as to why they are selling modified vehicles if they aren't going to offer the same warranty coverage on them. Explain your situation, soon be 4th year trade, looking at a diesel pick up and tell them that this issue has deterred you from buying a Chrysler product. (providing you didn't buy a Dodge diesel!) I would also include that you are in a Jeep club. I would ask that your be issue be resolved and the replace the T-case. If you are not happy with the initial response, resend it to someone higher up. I would keep on them, rattle their chains at the head office level.
To me, this is a matter or principal, not money. Isn't this the same company which is going to offer "lifetime" drivetrain coverage on selected new vehicles?
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If I were you, I would go to one of those Chrysler dealerships in town that have brand new vehicles (preferably a Jeep) which have aftermarket lifts on them and act as a potential buying customer.
Nice.....I like this approach.