Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => General Talk => Topic started by: w squared on April 21, 2009, 05:35:36 PM
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So...someone brings their vehicle in for Lube/Oil/Filter and a tire rotation. They're a regular customer. They ask you if you could swap out a fog lamp bulb while you're at it.
Do you ding them for an additional labour charge for changing a light bulb? Or do you just bill them for the price of the bulb and see it as a normal maintenance that is done "while you're at it".
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Charge them for the supply of the light and tell them to have nice day.
You'll get back it repeat business and word of mouth.
Vince
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Charge them for the supply of the light and tell them to have nice day.
You'll get back it repeat business and word of mouth.
Vince
x2
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How hard was the bulb to change? If it was a 2 or 3 minute job, it would be nice to do it at no charge. If it was a pain in the butt 15 min or longer job having to deal with corroded wires,stripped out screws, caked in mud etc. then you should expect to pay a bill.
There are so many variables in a question like this. what kind of shop were you in? a quickie lube or a dealership? who did the job an hourly lube guy or a flat rate mechanic.
Do you expect to get paid for the job you do when you are at work? So does a mechanic.
How much free stuff do you do for your customers? How much did that "free" job actually cost the customer ? Did you add a little to their next bill. Sometimes it is a lot cheaper to pay for the job now.
You should always expect to pay for someone's time, sometimes you will get a nice surprise when they do it at no charge. But I am finding so many people now expect to get it for free because "it's just a 2 second job and I just paid you $50 for an oil change I could done myself at home"
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a franchise shop should charge. the shop guy (doesn't sound like it was done by a mechanic), has to justify the bulb charge, they get 11 bucks an hour so getting in Sh#t for "free" labour isn't worth it for them.
An owner or true mechanic at his/her shop, would not charge. I used to for a shop I worked at in Edmonton, and was just a garage hand. The owner just said check it and replace them at no charge for labour or bulb. Although the shop I was at specialized in Rolls, Porsche, Audi etc. So labour was 180/hour min.
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No corrosion, caked on mud, or difficult angles, or even tools required. It MIGHT have been a three minute job. Something that I would have done earlier myself if I'd had the time to pick up the bulb. I asked them to do it simply because I happened to be in for the lube/oil/filter. This is something that would have been done while the oil was draining.
I expected to pay for the bulb...but not to have an additional charge tacked on, justified as "minimum shop rate" when my Jeep is already on the hoist for another service that I'm paying for.
I do expect to get paid for the work I do...but I also understand that my customers are the ones who make that pay possible. I don't expect them to keep giving me thier money if I start squeezing them every single time I see them.
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So, how much did it cost to change the bulb?
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$20, plus the cost of the bulb.
Not the end of the world by any means...but enough to annoy me.
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In my opinion, you get charged for more time than it takes to actually change your oil, so the 5 min job of changing the bulb couldd have been included. I've heard of lots of people who have dropped their vehicle off to have something done at a dealership, got a call that its finished 4 hours later, then look at the bill and they've been charged for 5-6 hours at a shop rate of $100+/hour. Some dealerships are billing out 12 hour days when they're only open 9 hours. Yeah they bill by the book time but for what you pay I think its BullZh!t.
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$20, plus the cost of the bulb.
Not the end of the world by any means...but enough to annoy me.
Welcome to Calgary... where changing a light bulb cost $20... that is ridiculous!
Just because of principals, I would tell these guys a thing or 2.
Come to my house next time.. we'll have a beer, change your oil, rotate your tires and change any lightbulbs you would like.
Cheers,Dom
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When my Jeep was still under warrenty, I had my underhood light go. Actually I didn't know if it had ever worked. When I had it in the shop for work I asked them to look into it. They changed out the light and charged me $15. A 3 minute job and a $2 light. I made the incorrect assumption that it was covered under warranty. Have you seen how much the dealer charges for a diff fluid change? :o
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Welcome to Calgary... where changing a light bulb cost $20... that is ridiculous!
Just because of principals, I would tell these guys a thing or 2.
Come to my house next time.. we'll have a beer, change your oil, rotate your tires and change any lightbulbs you would like.
Cheers,Dom
I did tell them a thing or two. I also gave them a few choice words about how their service manager told me that the E-brake cannot be adjusted to hold better than it currently does, even though Chrysler has sent out a TSB indicating that E-brake adjustments are required at 30,000km, and in two minutes of searching on-line I can find step-by-step illustrated instructions on how to make the adjustment with nothing more that a brake spoon and a philips screwdriver.
I'm going to give the general manager of the place an opportunity to fix the issue tomorrow, but I don't expect much.
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im a licensed auto tech working in a dealership. i make flat rate. yes. i have had 12 hour days. yes i was only there for 8 of them, or less. yes i busted my arse for all 8 of those hours so i could get ahead. who pays for the 30G worth of tools in my tool box? who pays for the 10 years of school/college/apprenticeship? who pays me when we are slow and i only get 2 hours in a full day?
i dont mean to come off as an bunghole tech. ive been ripped off before by my own employer who wouldnt charge the customer the full amount if i did the job faster then the proper time quote. cant discount parts but they can discount the techs labor.
i apologize sir that i got it done quick and properly. i can take 4 hours to do a front brake job. i can do it in 30 minutes too. i can let the shop helper do it too. he may take 5 hours and i cant gaurantee its done right.
so, some shops will charge for the bulb install. some wont. if its a shop with flat rate techs then i hope they do :)
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pretty much the perfect example of why you just do everything yourself. why pay someone to hit your jeep with a hammer when you can do it yourself.
Dom has it right; welcome to Calgary; you will you pay 20$ for a lightbulb. it can go along with your right to pay for parking to take public transit...... pfft, i'm just waiting for the toll both to go up on Deerfoot. (sorry different rant lol)
just as an fyi, mom had to replace a tail light on her TJ in BC, a guy at the parts store did it for her in the parking lot.....
she was also charged 50$ to do a headlight in Calgary before she moved out...........
sorry random rants haha..... but ya i guess bottom line, if u want it done, kind of expect to pay for it..... i grew sick of paying for labour a long time ago so i just do it myself. now i can get better parts cause i don't have to pay for install!
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Time is $$$....
Gotta ask yourself.... what rate would I bill myself out at?
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trevor, your arse is only worth 5 bucks dead i figure... ;D
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I hope to hell the summer is sweltering, and you ask me how much for A/C in your house.....
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I agree with regular jobs for a set price ... even if it's expensive. You ask for a service and you know ahead what the cost is. It is what it is.... I have no issue with that...
What I have a major issue are the "suprises". I'm sure if Wsquared was not told that it would cost $20 to change a light bulb, he would have told them where to put that light bulb... I would!
May be I'm from a small town where everything does not have a cost... and people help each other. We are not talking engine swap here. It's a freakin' light bulb! That's nickle and diming a customer.
I'm sure your mom JonnyC when back where the dude helped her out... that's called thinking big picture. I'm sure she told her Friends and family members too. That's good business in my opinion.
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Time is $$$. That said, I feel that it's not reasonable to charge additional $$$ when there wasn't any additional time spent. Can you seriously tell me that the two to three minutes (at the OUTSIDE) needed to change a bulb shouldn't be worked in when a vehicle's already in the shop?
If I make a trip out to see customer to do a specific job, will I charge him an additional manpower charge if he then asks me to "tack on" a few minutes of work doing a separate but related task for him?
In my business, the answer is no. I've been in that situation many a time, and the answer has ALWAYS been no - regardless if they're a long-standing preferred customer, or someone I've never worked with before. He's already paid to have you on site, and paid for the first task. I'll charge him for the additional costs incurred with the second task, but not tack on an aribtrary manpower charge when he's ALREADY paying for manpower. If I was in the habit of doinbg that to customers, then I wouldn't expect them to be customers for very long.
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Give, and take. Give a hand, take a moment.
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Interesting...I also just did a bit of checking. That shop is also charging me 50% ABOVE retail price for motor oil. :o
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This is kind of a hot topic. I agree with the concept of the charge in that the flat rate system is how they do business (I'm assuming most shops are like this), however they should have warned you about it first and it does sound a little excessive.
At the same time being in the service industry if I'm on site and I'm asked to look at something else I'll do it no questions asked. A fair charge will probably give you more respect than a free charge.
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If I charge a flat rate for a job of 2 hours and the tech does it in 1 hour and the customer complains and thinks they should only pay for an hour. I tell them sorry, next time they come in I will put a less experienced tech on it, then it will take 3 hours to do the 2 hour job.
The flat rate system is the fairest way of billing. I have seen lots of jobs take longer than the book rate, I have never had any one complain because I only charged them the 2 hour flat rate even though the job took three hours because every nut and bolt on it was frozen with rust.
How about when a tech is having a rough day and is dogging it a little, and the job takes longer. Customer shouldn't have to pay for that.
You always have the choice, all reputable shops will give you a price before doing the work. If you don't like the price then take it somewhere else.
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I pay the 50% more for my oil too, why? because they have a pit in the shop, they dipose of the oil, I dont have to crawl under my jeep in the mud to wrench off an oil filter. Thats why I pay more.
People need to be educated consumers and stop assuming that a business has morals or feelings. A business is no different than a toaster, it was designed to do a job and can be made to do that job. I have always been against uneducated consumers, dont get me started on coffee, ITS HOT! >:( ::)
Should they? Could they? Will they?
If you asked them "how much?" and they say free, and then charge you, then its a different story, but if you say "can you change my bulb?" then expect an angle. Maybe im just getting bitter :)
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Our shop will allow you to supply your own oil and filter, then we just charge you labor and disposal fees. I like doing that. Everyone wins, I make a few extra labor dollars and you save a little on the oil change. (and yeah I would have done the bulb for free on an oil change) Especially if you were driving a jeep.
A CJA sticker would also get you better service, but don't tell my boss ;)
Now if you were driving a Hummer, I would have doubled the charge ;D ;D ;D
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Unless you have a long term, and or personal reputation with a shop, expect nothing for free.
Nothing.
Do you bring the techs or service writers movie tickets or a bottle of whiskey at christmas?
Everything cost money, and unless you have a long standing relationship with a shop, nothing will be free, nor should it be.
Now, if you are known as a long time customer, easy to deal with, throws a bone the service guys way once in a while, then it becomes a different story. They will make an effort to take care of you, because you make the effort to take care of them.
If you are relatively unknown, or known but difficult to deal with and demanding, you will get no breaks, and be charged for everything.
My dad is a 25 year flat rate mechanic, that now runs one of the highest grossing dealership shops in calgary. We discuss this topic all the time.
The above statements are from him, to me. Shops are no different then a restaurant or local pub. Its all about establishing the relationship.
Not being negative. Just pointing out that you more then likely have nothing to be angry about.
Lastly, of course the oil is marked up. How do you think they make any money on oil changes. Even with mark up, there is no money in oil changes, and they certainly arent going to it for free, or at a cost to the shop.
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i give my garbage man about 5 cases of beer a year.
Why?
He takes everything i leave out.
i have brought dealerships and staff bottles of wine on baby jesus day.
Why?
freebies at times.
i also supply my oil and filter to the place i go. i ask if they want me to bring coffee.
i bring coffee to National sometimes.
on and on and on... ;)
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the world would be such a nicer place if we all forgot about money, the smile on someones face is worth so much more than any price you could put on it.
whats better the 5 dollars labour now or the 5 hundred you get later because you were a nice guy?
that being said you have to be carefull that you do not give to much of your self that you your self need help.
just my 2 cents! :)
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Unless you have a long term, and or personal reputation with a shop, expect nothing for free.
Nothing.
Do you bring the techs or service writers movie tickets or a bottle of whiskey at christmas?
Everything cost money, and unless you have a long standing relationship with a shop, nothing will be free, nor should it be.
Now, if you are known as a long time customer, easy to deal with, throws a bone the service guys way once in a while, then it becomes a different story. They will make an effort to take care of you, because you make the effort to take care of them.
If you are relatively unknown, or known but difficult to deal with and demanding, you will get no breaks, and be charged for everything.
My dad is a 25 year flat rate mechanic, that now runs one of the highest grossing dealership shops in calgary. We discuss this topic all the time.
The above statements are from him, to me. Shops are no different then a restaurant or local pub. Its all about establishing the relationship.
Not being negative. Just pointing out that you more then likely have nothing to be angry about.
Lastly, of course the oil is marked up. How do you think they make any money on oil changes. Even with mark up, there is no money in oil changes, and they certainly arent going to it for free, or at a cost to the shop.
I take your point - and I don't expect a freebie. I'm not asking for free parts, nor am I asking for the shop to "eat" the cost associated with doing work. What I object to is tacking on a "minmum shop charge" ofr something that isn't going to incur extra costs for the shop.
As far as marking up the oil, what I object to is paying an "upgrade" fee to go to full synthetic that is 150% of the listed retail price for the same brand, same weight, same container size full retail price of that oil. This is in addition to the charge for the oil change, the filter, the environmental fee, you name it.
You can't seriously expect me to believe that 6 liters of Mobil 1 costs a shop $70 more than 6 liters of dino oil. That's not a markup, that's highway robbery.
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Be carefull with that.
I know that dealers pay more for castrol syntec then we pay retail at walmart. Walmart is right at around 10$/litre over the counter, and my dad is paying almost a dollar more then that directly from castrol.
I doubt he pays more then then 2$ a litre for bulk dino.
I would not be suprised if your dealer is in a similar situation with their mobil 1.
There is actually less of a margin on the synthetics, then there is on the dino. The dino at a dealer is where the highway robbery comes in ;)
As for minimum shop charge, it does incur cost for them. The flatrate guy in the back will be writing it into his hours. The shop will pay him that .25 hour. So rather then making 10$, buy charging you 20, and paying the tech 10, they would simply end up giving away 10$ for the tech to do it.
Not a big deal, and not a big amount, but also not something they will do unless you have that long standing relationship with them.
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Shoulda been around when the dealership mentioned changing my diff fluid. I said, sure it's time, how much. She said $240 for both and I almost came unhinged. They don't even crack the housings and clean em out, that's what they charge to drain them, give them a vacuum, and then refill, plus the cost of new fluid. I did them myself at a buddy's house.
I mighta been a little chocked at $20 for a light being changed. $10 maybe for a 2 second job.
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I am a liscensed auto tech, & owned my own shop. I changed bulbs for free as a courtasy to my customers if the change was easy. However it blows my mind that the auto repair industry is the only place in the world that people expect freebies, do you guys go to wal mart & ask for free sh!t? Do you expect a framer, framing a house to frame some extra walls for free, or an electrician to install some extra runs for free? The answer is no because you already know that is the answer you will recieve.
My question to everyone is why do you EXPECT freebies from the auto industry & dont harrass the wallmert clerk for free stuff?
Just an F.Y.I. about the cost of oil, I payed more per litre buying 1000 litres at a time, than I pay walking into walmart to buy 1 litre. Also you should pay markup for oil/parts because you recieve a warranty with the work, if people want parts at cost then buy them yourself & stop a canadian tire on the way home to get the tools to install them yourself AKA no warranty.
Also do you guys go to the keg & bring your own steak or expect them to sell you the steak at cost?
I find this post very hypocritical. How many of you go to work each day & work for free? What everyone expects from the auto industry is the same as if your boss asked you to work late for free. I wonder what your answer would be.
END RANT.
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I am a liscensed auto tech, & owned my own shop. I changed bulbs for free as a courtasy to my customers if the change was easy. However it blows my mind that the auto repair industry is the only place in the world that people expect freebies, do you guys go to wal mart & ask for free sh!t? Do you expect a framer, framing a house to frame some extra walls for free, or an electrician to install some extra runs for free? The answer is no because you already know that is the answer you will recieve.
My question to everyone is why do you EXPECT freebies from the auto industry & dont harrass the wallmert clerk for free stuff?
Apples to oranges. I take your point, but as I mentioned in a previous post in this thread - I've been on the other side of the table. I can't begin to count the number of times that while I was on site for a customer, an additional request was made of me (and the same thing occurs daily with our employees). Yes, we will charge for additional consumables or expense incurred - but I have never seen additional charges tacked on for a task which did not involve any substantial investment of time or expense.
A tech that isn't willing to change a bulb for a customer because he's not being paid for that specific job as a line item on his invoice to the his employer - that's a shortsighted tech. If you squeeze the customer for every nickel and dime you possibly can, they're not going to come away feeling good about your operation. If I don't feel good about a shop, what incentive do I have to go there when I have a real problem? One that may be far more lucrative for that shop, and that tech.
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Thats just the point. You were in for an oil change. There is no money in oil changes. Had it been a large job, something like a buld is likely thrown in.
I spoke with my dad about this last night. He confirmed that the margins are smaller on synthetic changes, and that there really isnt any money in oil changes.
He wouldnt hand out a small freebie to a relatively unknown customer that had his vehicle in for a job that doesnt make any money either.
On the other hand, he has established customers roll through the drivethrough once in a while that he will grab an apprentice and have the bulb changed for free.
You have two choices. You can stick to your guns, remain angry, and more then likely ruin your relationship with your dealer, or you can take advice given here, learn how the industry works, and use it to your advantage in the future.
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A tech that isn't willing to change a bulb for a customer because he's not being paid for that specific job as a line item on his invoice to the his employer - that's a shortsighted tech. If you squeeze the customer for every nickel and dime you possibly can, they're not going to come away feeling good about your operation. If I don't feel good about a shop, what incentive do I have to go there when I have a real problem? One that may be far more lucrative for that shop, and that tech.
this reminds me of an interesting situation when i worked in an aftermarket assessory place in Edmonton. people would come in, order a swack load of garbage for their rig rockets. as a sign of good faith and what not, i replaced a tailgate end cap with one we had kicking around cause his was garbage. needless to say, customer was thrilled. he raved about how good the boys in the back were. next time in, he orders a bunch of more crap, and insists we throw in a set of mud flaps for nothing. sales guy eventually caves cause he's 'spent a lot and comes in a bunch' no i get pisseed off cause i'm doing a set of flaps on teh floor in January and the truck just came from the rigs.... so its muddy and snowy.. agaian customers happy..
next time in, he asks for some huge discount on something cause he 'is a regular customer blah blah blah' wanted free step bars with his Canopy. the sales guy finally says NO.
well, customer storms out, doesn't order the canopy, and raves about his 'bad service'
point is, if you give a little, it becomes EXPECTED and as humans you will always push for more, and then BAM, finally you say no, and customer just gets fumed off cause you've treated him different from before... now you've given free stuff away, AND lost the customer. so we lost a customer and get bad rep because he didn't get FREE THINGS.....
best example is your rant right now. ur angry cause you didn't get something for free. i understand its a bulb, and if your jeep were in the shop for something and i had 5 minutes waiting for a part sure, but its an oil change.... how long can the jeep possibly be in the shop for? on the floor in my garage it takes under 10 minutes........
again, this is something that'd tick me off too. so i just don't bring my vehicles in anywhere to get worked on. it'll sit broken in the garage for a month till i figure it out!
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So...someone brings their vehicle in for Lube/Oil/Filter and a tire rotation. They're a regular customer. They ask you if you could swap out a fog lamp bulb while you're at it.
Do you ding them for an additional labour charge for changing a light bulb? Or do you just bill them for the price of the bulb and see it as a normal maintenance that is done "while you're at it".
depends if they squirt me off.
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I am a liscensed auto tech, & owned my own shop. I changed bulbs for free as a courtasy to my customers if the change was easy. However it blows my mind that the auto repair industry is the only place in the world that people expect freebies, do you guys go to wal mart & ask for free sh!t? Do you expect a framer, framing a house to frame some extra walls for free, or an electrician to install some extra runs for free? The answer is no because you already know that is the answer you will recieve.
My question to everyone is why do you EXPECT freebies from the auto industry & dont harrass the wallmert clerk for free stuff?
Just an F.Y.I. about the cost of oil, I payed more per litre buying 1000 litres at a time, than I pay walking into walmart to buy 1 litre. Also you should pay markup for oil/parts because you recieve a warranty with the work, if people want parts at cost then buy them yourself & stop a canadian tire on the way home to get the tools to install them yourself AKA no warranty.
Also do you guys go to the keg & bring your own steak or expect them to sell you the steak at cost?
I find this post very hypocritical. How many of you go to work each day & work for free? What everyone expects from the auto industry is the same as if your boss asked you to work late for free. I wonder what your answer would be.
END RANT.
you did not specifically point at me but i might be one of them.
Firstly, you are using comparisons that are not in the spirit of the OP's question. Changing a light bulb for free is equivalent to the electrician in your house doing work and you ask him to change a burnt out bulb and expect it done for free.
Having the framer in your house and asking him to tap a few nails in on an old project you have not finished and doing it for free.
Those are better examples.
As to bringing my oil in? Well, if you know of a oil place that has Royal Purple in stock, than i guess i would not have to bring it. If you know a shop that stocks oil filters for my RHD diesel Pajero, than i would not have to bring it. Until recently Rotella T was not at my local shop, so i had to bring that too. P.S. i asked first and still pay a premium to get the labor done.
Freebies in my office? OFTEN! Try getting a doctors note from your MD and not paying $30. i do notes and letters often for no charge. Actually, i never charge.
The lesson to be learned is ASK what is it going to cost to do 'said' service before they do it.
:)
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I do freebies in my industry.... I call it "investment charges"...
I work in the transportation industry... I don't nickel and dime everything. It works well for me.
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Time is $$$....
Gotta ask yourself.... what rate would I bill myself out at?
....that's a good question for the working girl on the corner, likely some variables in that hourly rate too! :o Wonder what she'd charge to "swap a bulb" or "change the fluids"? :-\
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I do freebies in my industry.... I call it "investment charges"...
I work in the transportation industry... I don't nickel and dime everything. It works well for me.
I know I openned a can of worm and no one jumped on it yet... you guys are SLOW...."I do freebies in my industry"
I thought I woudl lighten the mood...too late now
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I understand that lots of different business do freebies, I certainly did my fair share. My whole point was that the differance with the auto industry is that it is "expected"
Tom, it is super that you give notes to your patients for free, but I would wager that none of your customers "expect" it.
That was the whole point of my little rant.
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gotcha... ;)
the land of entitlement.
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lots of good points from both sides.
one thing id like to add is the oil change to begin with. im paid .4 of an hour to find the keys, find the vehicle, check lights, inspect underhood, set-up hoist/raise vehicle on hoist, inspect under vehicle, drop engine oil(dosent drain instantly), remove filter and let drain, inspect brakes, put together a quote on any problems i find in my 16 point inspection, find parts, talk to service writer about quote and parts availability, drop vehicle down, add new oil. topp up all fluids if needed. park vehicle. bring keys back, type story into computer as to what i did and what i found, make note of anything i need to.
0.4 of an hour is 24 minutes. something as simple as a bulb can add a few minutes and im over my time. if im over my time im losing money. i dont squeeze my customers for every penny. personally i prefer that their vehicle leaves my shop in brand new condition. thats why they bring their vehicle to the dealership. so a few extra pannies here and there goes a long way at a dealership. if you have a problem we will warranty our work, our parts, and anything else we do for you. :)
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lots of good points from both sides.
one thing id like to add is the oil change to begin with. im paid .4 of an hour to find the keys, find the vehicle, check lights, inspect underhood, set-up hoist/raise vehicle on hoist, inspect under vehicle, drop engine oil(dosent drain instantly), remove filter and let drain, inspect brakes, put together a quote on any problems i find in my 16 point inspection, find parts, talk to service writer about quote and parts availability, drop vehicle down, add new oil. topp up all fluids if needed. park vehicle. bring keys back, type story into computer as to what i did and what i found, make note of anything i need to.
0.4 of an hour is 24 minutes. something as simple as a bulb can add a few minutes and im over my time. if im over my time im losing money. i dont squeeze my customers for every penny. personally i prefer that their vehicle leaves my shop in brand new condition. thats why they bring their vehicle to the dealership. so a few extra pannies here and there goes a long way at a dealership. if you have a problem we will warranty our work, our parts, and anything else we do for you. :)
I should bring my ZJ to ya, you'll have a heart attack and go over time just writing the fix-its needed lol. BTW, I have had nothing but great service at your place of work. I picked up my isolators a day earlier than quoted, but they forgot one. They overnighted it for me so I could pick it up Saturday and finish my lift. :)