Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => General Talk => Topic started by: WhiteOut on December 05, 2009, 01:42:05 AM
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So i hear all these stories from friends about how bad it is out on the roads. 2-3 foot snowbanks and cars stuck all over the place, figure it would be fun to go play in it. After 45 minutes of driving, NOTHING! Sooo disappointed the city plow everything so well. >:(
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Just find yourself some back streets!
The alleys behind all the houses here in Lake Bonavista are a LOT of fun after a big storm ;D
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was runnin some alleys around my house and its been fun haha my 33's disapeered in 1 drift
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Backing out of my garage I was pushing the snow drift with my hatch it came right up to the glass.
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Try near fields the snow drifts in my area are getting close to 3'...way too much fun it was just me and some guy in his jacked up ford driving around!!
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Was out yesterday in my AWD minivan with studded tires. It was a blast! Went up to Cross Iron mills and got the X-mas shopping done. Was a great day to do it, malls were empty.
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there are 5-6 foot ones around my house :P can even see my nabours cars anymore
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Drifts out of the city are insane, there's some almost over the hood of my F150 project!
I'll take some pictures and post them when I go out and 'attempt' to run my driveway.... have to use the J20. ;)
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Strathmore is quite retarded as well. Here's an idea if you have a minivan or civic don't try to drive on roads that have drifts as big as your crappy traction mobile. But touring around in the snow has been fun. ;D
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My neighbor just called me... he parked his JK on a concrete median at Glenmore and 37th. He got the front drivers wheel and the front diff over and is now sitting on the track bar.
Went over to help him out but there is WAY too much traffic and ice for me to attempt anything. 6 hour wait for the tow... That wind is now turning all the plowed roads into skating rinks... I'm calling it a movie day now. :)
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I tried to go to work today up in Skyview... country hills closed, but managed to get around the back way, but... Metis had a bit of snow on it.(http://forum.calgaryjeep.com/Users/Steve/Desktop/1205091303.jpg)
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lots of snow in abbeydale. Lovin every minit of it. Although there are alot of cars to help push off the road. 1 bus and 4 cars turned a 10 min macks trip into 2hrs. guess they should have bought a jeep. ;D
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Just made a thread with pictures of what it looks like in my neck of the woods, scary stuff. ???
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I pulled Blasphemy out to play in the drifts and do some extractions on the alleys and side streets,.. when I pulled the Mustang into the back alley I managed to get it stuck. Some guy pulled up in his Envoy and said "great day for a Mustang,..hahhaha" then proceeded to get stuck where I had just been stuck,.. he popped it it to 4wd and yup still stuck,...Karma's a bitch,.. so 5 of us decided to push him out and teach him the tricks of fanning the front wheels to get some grip ::)
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McKnight was still closed south of the airport around 10:30 last night.
It seemed that any East-West road that had enough of an open area to the North was in danger of being closed down completely. I saw one street that simply had an open "park" on the North side - it was completely covered with two to three foot drifts, and even the 4WD vehicles had resorted to driving on the sidewalk and people's lawns on the south side of the road.
I also saw one spot on the North side of Martindale where someone had parked an F-350 with a topper on the North side of a street. The truck acted as enough of a snow fence that there was a drift on the south side...about nine feet worth. :o
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The Toyota lot off Gasoline Alley here yesterday afternoon...
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/RedDogAlberta/Alberta/233.jpg)
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The Toyota lot off Gasoline Alley here yesterday afternoon...
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/RedDogAlberta/Alberta/233.jpg)
Yeah...but they have Tacomas and FJ cruisers there. If you listen to the Yota guys, their IFS will make short work of those drifts! ;D
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I was in Calgary for the weekend to visit and do some shopping. What a great one I picked. Highway 22 was a freakin mess, when I could see at all! By Okotoks it was scary as hell. I was happy to see not too many RETARDS driving too fast while I was there.
On the way home I took Highway 2 to Ft. Macleod and then to the crowsnest pass. Highway was dicey at best. Then my alternator died in Jaffray BC, but made it back to Kimberley on reserve power. Good trip!
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I drove in from Ft McMurray last night hiways were in good shape lots of drifting though; I had no troubles but then I was grossing 203,000 lbs, My heep started good this am then played in drifts out at Aldersyde for a while before heading for house ;D
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Yup...a heavy rig does tend to work a little better than a light one for busting drifts ;D
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me and my roomates went out on friday gars were stuck everywhere and the right turning line heading west on micnight was not travled just pased the airport/before deerfoot had to go that way so just plowed throw it :) :) :) :) and on the way back we saw a yukon and a blazer that tryed to follow my tracks throw about 75' of 3' high snow drift was going to help them out but saw that there was a tow truck was there then saw Doug (mudhug) on the meites off ramp pulling stuck cars out stoped to see if he need help he said he had it under control :) :) :) ;D ;D
good show Doug what was the total # off cars pulled out there?????
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pulled that BMW out of there then went up to kingcora and pulled i believe it was 10 or 15 cars out of there... easy 200 bucks.. pretty sure i broke an axle shaft today in the jeep though >:(
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs042.snc3/12945_335123350230_509325230_9878161_1648082_n.jpg)
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Hey Whiteout
I work with the city driving a plow and if you are looking for a few good streets to play in take a look at Edmonton Trail and 31 Ave NE. I got my sander stuck there today in a five foot snow drift today and spend two hours digging myself out. Another good one is right behind King George Elementry on 9th Street. Huge drifts and a lot of snow there as well. Next time it snows I will try to post some good places to play before we plow them.
The key to finding a lot of snow is look around by schools that have big fields. You always get big drifts and tons of snow around there.
On Saturday morning we were talking with the night foreman and he was saying that a plow got stuck on his shift and when they came back in the morning on my shift to pull it out there was an eight foot drift covering the truck. I beleive that the plow was stuck on or near 64th Ave.
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They *still* have Metis northbound closed for whatever reason. They were in there earlier with a front end loader and graders.
cars and trucks were stuck(about 7 of them, going both ways)
people just left them.
they closed off 80th, and I thougth that it might have just been bad for a little, so I made a detour, and that is when I found the stuck cars and trucks.
decided that if a 3/4 ton wouldn't make it, I likely wouldnt' either(need some weight in the jeep, it is a very light jeep in the back right now.
that and I couldn't see a path through the stuck cars, I would have hit one of them at least
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Final tally for me was one small Ford that took 35 minutes of winching, a fullsize Tahoe (fumed wife inside, husband shoveling with hands when I arrived), guy who snapped the idler pulley trying to bust snow piles in the HD parking lot with an Intrepid. I'm probably going back up tomorrow to pull some cars now that the snow is a bit more packed.
Taradale, Falconridge and Martindale min. requirements are 31's, heavy bumper, lift, F&R recovery and a winch.
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Don't forget the Acura driver that insisted on hugging us!
Oh...and there was also a Honda in Falconridge.
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i love this .. i can go anywhere and everywhere pass people doing 40km and im doing 45 but in the snowbank
pulled 11 people out of the snnow on saturday .
bring on more the more snow the less bad drivers on the roads
because theyll all be stuck and have to take the bus
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and then get stuck on the bus, haha.
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now that sucks
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Shhh... Michie spent *hours* digging a bus out on Friday that the previous driver had got stuck.
Was it the bus stuck half on the road and half iff by Crowchild at 54th?
On a different topic, it is not only -17* and the roads are bare, there is zero need for people to be driving 25kph on Crowchild with their 4 ways on. If this is you, STAY HOME!
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Was it the bus stuck half on the road and half iff by Crowchild at 54th?
On a different topic, it is not only -17* and the roads are bare, there is zero need for people to be driving 25kph on Crowchild with their 4 ways on. If this is you, STAY HOME!
agreeed .. if you cant keep up and dont feel safe on the roads then get off them cuz guess what you people doing 25km are the problem
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There's a time an place for driving like that...like when there is twelve inches of snow on the road, or they're glare ice.
If you don't have the skills and experience to drive safely in moderate conditions, call a taxi - because you're a hazard to everyone else on the road.
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well i dont know about them taxi drivers either
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I live near Westhills and every year on the first or second snow a minivan or family hauler will end up high centered on the median going into McDonalds on the south end of the mall. This happens every year and is a tricky one to get the vehicle down and they still haven't done anything to prevent the poor drivers to stop doing this to themselves.
I'm impressed so many of you go and help get people pulled out of the snow. Truly admirable.
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Conditions were similarly poor here in Edmonton last week. I dragged a cube van out of a snowbank he'd slid into while attempting to pass an already mired city bus. After the thanks/handshake portion, I circled the block to offer my services to the bus, but the driver refused, and then proceeded to engage in an activity that I can only describe as a cross between dancing and tai chi. I guess he was thoroughly enjoying his paid break. The same day provided plenty of happy surprises including a middle aged woman attempting to turn left, from a parking lot, across my path. Had conditions been ideal, the manoeuvre would have been ill-advised, and her timing was jaw-droppingly poor. Luckily, standing on the brakes (ABS) and swerving in the opposite direction averted disaster. Clearly flustered, this adept wheel-woman decided to start forward, change her mind, and reverse quickly, without so much as a glance in her rear-view mirror. I could only shake my head as I drove past. Edmontonian drivers have me convinced that there is a town meeting held just prior to a snowfall, and the consensus reached is that everyone should abandon all reason, logic, and plain ol' common sense in favour of raw stupidity. With warm weather just around the corner, and a foot of snow on the ground, I can hardly wait to see the good fortune in store for the City of Champions.
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Edmontonian drivers have me convinced that there is a town meeting held just prior to a snowfall, and the consensus reached is that everyone should abandon all reason, logic, and plain ol' common sense in favour of raw stupidity.
Common sense is nothing more than the preconceptions and biases that you form before you reach the age of 18. Given how foolish most 18 year olds are these days, common sense doesn't amount to much.
Sometimes I think that they have it right in Quebec - appropriate tires are manadatory for the winter months.
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i hope we never go to mandatory snow tires. The West is a different beast. We have 'clear' roads but at -20, they are really ice layered. No snow tire except studded will help with those conditions. The EAST is WET deep snow.
i own 3 vehicles that would need snow tires. That is a LOT of money :o The tires we run do very well. At the end of the day it comes down to driver experience. i think just like the graduated licensing, these same folks should be made to run snow tires. My AT's do very well and i change my driving habits to account for conditions.
Maybe the City should not build new walkways over water and instead do a much better job at snow removal.
i will vehemently oppose any winter tire rule. >:(
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I had to laugh at my co-workers the other day(and Calgarians in General). Last year when the city wanted to raise taxes everyone got all upset. I compared my tax rate for my $320,000 house in Cochrane to my boss's $500,000+ in Calgary and found I was paying about $500 more per year.
Fast Forward to that last big storm a few Fridays ago, I drove around in Calgary all day that day(have an AWD minivan and studded tires) and thought what a mess, when I got home into Cochrane all the roads were plowed(including my side street) and were done again the next day. For the next 5 days when I went to work in the morning there was a fresh layer of gravel on all the intersections.
Now yesterday I hear that Calgarians would support a tax hike if it meant better snow clearing......
I also am not in favor of mandatory snow tires by law. I've got studded tires on the mini-van but I drive that van everyday to the airport from Cochrane and as I fix snowplows for a living I'm expected to be there no matter the weather. However I have good quality AT tires on the dually that work quite well and to have swap them out for winter tires would cost me $1500+.
There should be some provison though to charge people running around on bald,summer,sports or otherwise inadequate tires, they just plug up the roads for the rest of us.
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i hope we never go to mandatory snow tires. The West is a different beast. We have 'clear' roads but at -20, they are really ice layered. No snow tire except studded will help with those conditions. The EAST is WET deep snow.
i own 3 vehicles that would need snow tires. That is a LOT of money :o The tires we run do very well. At the end of the day it comes down to driver experience. i think just like the graduated licensing, these same folks should be made to run snow tires. My AT's do very well and i change my driving habits to account for conditions.
Maybe the City should not build new walkways over water and instead do a much better job at snow removal.
i will vehemently oppose any winter tire rule. >:(
Speaking from personal experience (I've put lots of winter miles on Michelin Alpins, BFG AT's, Toyo M-55's, Toyo Open Country AT's, and siped BFG MT's), an AT will not do as well on ice as a good winter tire would. It can't. It doesn't have the soft compound, and it doesn't have the sipes. A studded winter tire is ideal...but a non-studded winter tire is better for most people.
Also, a well thought-out winter tire law would simply mandate that tires run during the winter would have the "severe snow" rating. Most AT's have that rating - reflecting the fact that while they will never keep up with a real winter tire on ice, they are far better than an all-season street tire or even most M/T's during the winter. You could keep your AT's year-round...but the minivans and Hondas running around on half-bald all-season tires would have to spend a few dollars making themselves less of a hazard to everyone else on the road.
And yes...I would have to buy new tires. :(
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from what I hear, there is going to be a vote sometime in febuary reguarding this.
I see the validity of this as it will make the roads safer, but it will put a strain on the people that are just getting by as it is.
I myself love winter tires, I have pruchased 4 vehicles and all of them had winters, including my jeep now(back end is so light I needed the grip)
I had put 2 sets on one of the cars(92 tempo, great car for winter because it was heavy), I have also bought my sister and brother-in-law winter tires because they are much better in winter.
with the 7 sets of winters that I have purchased I have spent going 5000 bucks on winters(including wheels, I find really good deals), and I do not regret spending the money if it will keep my family safer.
other drivers are now the issue, so I would not mind if everyone had winters, it would sure cut down on the insurance claims, and high rates.
I will be interested to see where this takes us, and will let you know if I hear anything more about it.
cheers
steve
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The biggest problem is not people who don't have winter tires but those a) driving on bald all seasons or summers and b) people who just cant drive (including people in a lot of 4x4s and SUVs). Why not mandate that you can't run summers in winter and can't run a tire with less than 25% life remaining. All a winter tire law will do in embolden the fools who are somehow still on the road, somehow every time it snows or ices up I pass tons of people who are stuck on level ground or a slight hill just spinning their tires at redline? Having winter tires will not make everyone a better driver overnight and it will not make the roads safer. the train of thought will be "I have winter tires, now I have sick traction I can drive exactly how I do in the summer".
If you are curious here is what it will cost you. Assuming a 32" winter tire, which is the largest I could find without going to a 17 or 18" rim size.
If you buy new rims with the winter tires, expect to pay $1870.00, assuming the place you buy from will mount and balance for free and you can get a rim for $100. If you don't get rims the cost goes down to $1710.00 initially but you pay $300.00 every year to have the tires swapped and rebalanced. Then you have to store the tires.
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where do you pay 150 bucks a shot to have tires mounted. that is steep
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where do you pay 150 bucks a shot to have tires mounted. that is steep
Kal-Tire and Fountain Tire both charge $35/wheel to remove, remount and balance a tire. So you have 5 tires that need swapping, that's $175 right there. Then you pay for them to put them back on the vehicle, plus shop supplies and charges for valve cores.
No tire place is dumb enough to give me free for life remove/mount/balance on a set of tires I will only run 4 months a year.
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snip...
As I 'splained to Michie, I drive in 2 wheel drive as much as I can, because then if I find myself in a situation, I have something to draw on (4x4, and if necessary lockers) to get out of the situation. If you get into it with all the goodies already working for you, there's nothing left but raw knowledge and skill to get you out.
And this is where the problem lies. You have 4wd and don't use it. How is that plan going to work for you when you are cruising Calgary streets in minus 20 or colder and you start to lose control on curves in the road, bridges, etc. The answer is you WON"T. Its too late.
Maybe i am a wuss but my Dodge was in 4wd every day/night when temps were -20 or colder. The difference in the ABILITY to CONTROL the vehicle is night and day vs 2wd.
My pet peeve is the 4x4 crowd that won't use it. You have it, use it!!!!
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I use 4wd unless it is dry and bare. Driving to work in Rocky from Sylvan each day makes it a necessity.
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And further more ............
What makes a tire a winter tire ?
Most of us likely have it covered , well those that of us that have lugged tires and use our vehicles for both road or off road .
When I was a kid , living in eastern Canada in the 60's , winter tires had deep lugs , some were studded , passenger cars ran aggressive tires in the winter , it was a necessity. Radial tires were only read about in popular mechanics magazines and were not being made or sold yet .
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And further more ............
What makes a tire a winter tire ?
Most of us likely have it covered , well those that of us that have lugged tires and use our vehicles for both road or off road .
When I was a kid , living in eastern Canada in the 60's , winter tires had deep lugs , some were studded , passenger cars ran aggressive tires in the winter , it was a necessity. Radial tires were only read about in popular mechanics magazines and were not being made or sold yet .
Yeah! good point/observation.
dunl, even when the city streets here look bare and dry, the -20 or colder still makes them slippery than a witche's...
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And further more ............
What makes a tire a winter tire ?
Most of us likely have it covered , well those that of us that have lugged tires and use our vehicles for both road or off road .
When I was a kid , living in eastern Canada in the 60's , winter tires had deep lugs , some were studded , passenger cars ran aggressive tires in the winter , it was a necessity. Radial tires were only read about in popular mechanics magazines and were not being made or sold yet .
A modern winter tire is worlds away from the winter tires that everyone used in the 60's, 70's and into the 80's. It's not about lugs and void space - it's about soft compounds and sipes. I've driven a number of different vehicles on them, and compared to a conventional tire it's like having suction cups on all four corners of your vehicle. The difference is shocking...even when you compare them to a good AT or a siped MT.
Big lugs and lots of void space are just what the doctor ordered in deep snow...but they won't keep up to a modern winter tire on glazed hard-packed snow or ice. As I said...I've driven vehicles on both types of tires and there is no comparison. Then again, run those winter specific tires in the summer and you'll be buying one set a year.
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I would say go see the boy's at Country tire.
they are good guys and I think they charge about 20 bucks a tire(I think)
this year I only got the 4 winters on the jeep. will likely find another rim and get a 5th later this winter or next year.
at Costco it is 11 bucks a rim. ( but you have to have one set from costco and they have to follow the few rules we have)
winter tires do not make people better drivers, and I try to make people know that when buying them, that they have to drive smarter in the winter, slow down and give people space and drive for the conditions.
they can't make you a better driver, but it can help with traction and more or less not freeze up into a puck.
nice to see everyone's opinions though
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dunl, even when the city streets here look bare and dry, the -20 or colder still makes them slippery than a witche's...
I said when they are bare.....not when they LOOK bare. :)
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I keep the jeep in 2WD most of the time.
some of the side streets that are narrow and slick I will throw it in 4x4 if I have to pass beside someone.
some intersections are slick and it helps too.
I just need a few more sand bags to get more weight in the rear.
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dunl,
i was with ya on that one. no worries.
i was just adding to the discussion by 'reminding' the Calgary folk. ;)
Pat, i know a GOOD driver can negotiate the worst of it in 2wd with a good set of boots. :)
But a good driver in those conditions (Cold, Icy, etc) is a rare sighting in this city.
If 4wd is available, it should be engaged. Yeah, we can point out that some 4x4 citizens think 4x4 means invincible ::)
But, overall, i feel much better 'hoping' that the Jeep, Truck, or car beside me on Crowchild has that option engaged, as we approach the twisties at 80k. ;D
w squared,
i agree something should be done. Its like wheelin with a guy that has bald offroad tires, it sucks for you and me.
My CJ has Maxxis Bighorns. They are wonderful on road, and i hear they are great offroad including snow.
But, i had to take the jeep out of its warm garage and get my tires flipped to put it away for the winter (except the odd winter wheelin). Anyways, i was on 42nd heading west towards Macleod. It was one of those cold snow filled days, there was a slight hill to the intersection and i was in 2wd. i wasted one whole cycle of lights trying to 'massage' my way up that tiny hill. It sucked for me and those behind me.
i thought i was going to have to get out and lock the hubs. :-[
Intersections suck for those of us with decent tires and/or 4x4/awd capability, because so much time is wasted by Calgarians with CRAP tires.
i would like to see mandatory tire inspection before i see mandatory need to buy tires. ;)
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I think that I fall somewhere betwenn you two as far as engaging 4WD.
If the road is bare or mostly bare, I run my Jeep in 2WD. If it's snow/ice covered or mostly covered, I slip it into 4WD. I understand the points that you're making Pat, but I think that the time required to reach down and engage 4WD is time that I can't rely on having available to me in a collision avoidance situation.
4WD will never be the equal of AWD on snowy/icy roads...just like my siped MT's will never be the equal of good winter tires on typical winter roads....but AT's or siped MT's and 4WD still puts us far, far ahead of the average econobox or kidlet hauler on all-season tires.
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4WD will never be the equal of AWD on snowy/icy roads...just like my siped MT's will never be the equal of good winter tires on typical winter roads....but AT's or siped MT's and 4WD still puts us far, far ahead of the average econobox or kidlet hauler on all-season tires.
this part is partially true anyway, but it will not really help your ability to stop.
I always laugh at people when they say that they can run a mud tire in winter and never have a problem, even on ice ::)
I was playing arround with the mud tires when it first snowed and they were ok, but when it started to ice up I was like this :o :-\ :'(
well, maybe not, but it was still not that fun. with the winters on it is night and day. for me, a little money for more confidence in my vehicles, the better.
most people wouln't go anywhere without a spare and a jack(well, all that often, I had to do that last night, still need to fix the jackall)
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Pat, i think you get caught up in nice technical lenghty BS. ;)
ANY TJ/JK in 4wd HI is meant to be there on any surface that has any amount of slippery condition.
i have run my TJ in the middle of summer on RAIN filled surfaces in 4wd HI.
Your jeep is receiving zero damage to its components in Calgary on roads that have seen sun during day and temps that drop to 15below or colder, i get to drive home (22kms) every night after work. The roads are like ICE. 4wd HI is perfectly safe to use. There is no slippage, making it less safe ::)
There is make belief world (all the tech data) vs real world. i dare you to try it, you might be surprised :o
Maybe that is why they put the 4wd HI option in a transfer case, so it can be used. You be the hero though and use 2wd when 4wd hi is perfectly suited for those conditions.
And yeah, it is my pet peeve. 4wd hi is meant to be used not turned on when it is too late.
Judging by your short response to any thread on CJA, i highly doubt you could react quickly enough as you would spend 'hours' mulling it over with all that tech you have inside your head, as your rig bounces off walls...and cars. :D
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this part is partially true anyway, but it will not really help your ability to stop.
I always laugh at people when they say that they can run a mud tire in winter and never have a problem, even on ice ::)
I was playing arround with the mud tires when it first snowed and they were ok, but when it started to ice up I was like this :o :-\ :'(
well, maybe not, but it was still not that fun. with the winters on it is night and day. for me, a little money for more confidence in my vehicles, the better.
most people wouln't go anywhere without a spare and a jack(well, all that often, I had to do that last night, still need to fix the jackall)
i think we can all agree on that. Having 4x4 does not stop you any faster...
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i think we can all agree on that. Having 4x4 does not stop you any faster...
THAT right there is a pet peeve of mine...people who think that.
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I dunno fellas, try driving down a clear stretch in 2wd and slam on the brakes, then try it in 4x. In 4 you should notice the front actually helps brake the rear, thus the front doesn't lock up as quick and send you sailing. Call it more controlled, moreso than faster; but still, it's no excuse
for not leaving enough distance for the road conditions.
If you want to get technical look up the difference between static and kinetic friction.
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There might be a slight difference alright, and that's due to the front and rear being connected as I stated in my "technical BS" post.
Hence me saying the front helps the rear, because you have it connected because it's in 4hi. I'm pretty sure most of us on here aren't mildly retarded, we know how it works.
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Can someone explain to me how the brake system is connected to the transfer case?
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In my old F-150 (which was bagged when I got it), having the hubs locked, and the 4-Hi in the t-case not engaged, actually provided some rolling resistance, and made it easier for the rear end to slip out when I got on the gas at all. I quickly learned that if the conditions justified having locked hubs, then the next step was to beat it into 4-HI. I've also read that the added weight of 4x4 components (as compared to an equivalent 2wd vehicle) will increase your stopping distance. It makes sense, but I have yet to see any hard data proving that inference.
That being said, I agree with dunl in that there is really no connection between the brakes and t-case. Driver error, crappy tires/brakes, lousy roads, and the 14 beers the night before seem to have a much greater impact on how quickly people bring their junk to a stop.
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Can someone explain to me how the brake system is connected to the transfer case?
Let's put it this way....can someone explain to me EXACTLY how putting your vehicle in 2wd NEGATIVELY affects the performance of your braking system?
Sorry...that's the silliest thing I have ever heard. If anything, the force from the engine that is transferred to the front driveshaft keeps you from braking better....the brakes now have to deal wit rolling resistance, AND the force from the engine.
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wow. butthurt much?
Bullying? The world has become so PC. Good luck with the bully card. i thought my smiles were well placed.
i get yours, you are angry at my comments. VERY angry and butthurt.
Pat, here is a challenge to you.
Next time we dip below 25, come meet me at my office. You in 2wd and me in a BIG heavy Dodge in 4wd.
Follow me home. Than we can share our driving experience.
Pat, there isn't a post that comes up on this forum that you don't comment elaborately. 4 sale, wanted, tech, general, trips, etc.
That would make you a know it all. So, in a way you are forcing your opinions on others.
i stand by what i said. 4wd HI is to be used on any road surface that is wet or loose. We call it normal wear and tear.
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I don't think anyone said that 2wd negatively effects your brake system. Just that 4wd makes those icy/horrible stopping times a little more controlled.
Not that you stop faster just maybe a little less skidding/all over the road.
I kind of agree with Pat on 4wd when I need it, not all the time. However, it is up to each of us to decide how we like to drive. We are all grown ups and can decide for ourselves. Its nice to get opinions from everyone, but they are just opinions and we have to take what we want out of them.
Happy Holidays folks :) Safe driving in 2 or 4
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jenn1981,
it is a choice :)i just wished more Calgarians choose 4wd ;D
Merry Christmas
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Regardless of 2 or 4wd there is sadly a large population of Calgarians who just can't drive. It doesn't matter what they are driving they will still be bad.
The guy that rearended me was in 4wd, still put my tow hook through his rad. Doesn't matter if you choose it, if your a horrible driver.
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I don't think anyone said that 2wd negatively effects your brake system. Just that 4wd makes those icy/horrible stopping times a little more controlled.
Not that you stop faster just maybe a little less skidding/all over the road.
I didn't say that anyone said that, but I can't see that it would help. If the 4x4 system drives the four wheels, how can it help them brake at the same time? It simply cannot, IMO, brake and make them go at the same time. They're completely independent, aren't they?
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jenn1981,
it is a choice :)i just wished more Calgarians choose 4wd ;D
Merry Christmas
truer words have never been spoken.
personally i'm sick of being stuck behind someone who is struggling to drive a 4x4 in 2wd. it makes traffic go slow, they have less control and it makes your vehicle no more capable than that guy in a 2wd S10. sell you 4x4 get a civic.
winter comes and i dont' even take my vehicles out of 4wd. ever. never have, never will.
Pat, please tell me how your mathematics equate to drive time; i'm listening. can you explanation be applied to traffic in Calgary and be used to decrease winter drivetimes?
cause i'm sick of watching 3 cars/trucks get through a damn interstection in one light, and watching my drive time more than triple. however, me and my trusty jeep pin it off the line, fishtailing and pulling out of it up to cruising speed before the guy beside me even gets going. why? maybe its casue my 4x4 is engaged and i grew up driving in these conditions. doesn't matter though, cause i just come up to the next light where three people get through again.
do i feel safe in 2wd. sure, i can 'get to work' spinning and fishtailing. however i've fishedtailed enough on the highway due to black ice and 50km/h side winds; 4wd magically eleviates that, cause the front axle pulls me out. frankly the decreased amount of slippage is negligable to me; if i go through a transfer case every 15 years, i'm ok with that.
no matter your mathematical logics, i still think its stupid for anyone to be in 2wd with mud terrains in a snowstorm.............. why? because you squirt off all other drivers trying to prove you don't need to engage 4x4. theres no road in the city right now that can't justify using 4x4. the 'slippage' is negligable;
on a side note, saw a guy in an escalade get stuck the other day in a snowbank. being cocky, he puts it in 4wd to get out. still stuck. i laughed. guess 80k still doesn't buy common sense. i asked why he wasn't in 4x4 he said he 'didn't need it' he was right ;) i said 'ok, YOU push, I"LL drive' he didn't like that.
sorry rant over; i just know its going to take me an hour and a half to drive to work tomorrow, watching people in ill-equipped vehicles 'commute' to work.
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on a side note, saw a guy in an escalade get stuck the other day in a snowbank. being cocky, he puts it in 4wd to get out. still stuck. i laughed. guess 80k still doesn't buy common sense. i asked why he wasn't in 4x4 he said he 'didn't need it'
Guess if it was in 4wd he could've stopped better, eh? :D
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Guess if it was in 4wd he could've stopped better, eh? :D
well he parked in a snowbank;) then tried to drive through it on my side street. haha
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my personal preference for my Cherokee is 4x4 in the winter months. I'd rather be able to get up some hills in rocky (main street) then sit there and spin holding people up. IMO there is a time and place for 4 wheel and that is drivers discretion.
Quote from tinkerer:
If you read, I have tried it in 4x4 high and I didn't like the reduced steering.
I haven't noticed a drastic difference in steering since i have an open front. I do agree though that if both front tires are locked together steering is a PITA, and you are bound to wreck stuff. (NP 242 part time on pavement) etc
but thats just my 0.02 cents
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well he parked in a snowbank;) then tried to drive through it on my side street. haha
LMAO. :)
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jenn1981,
it is a choice :)i just wished more Calgarians choose 4wd ;D
Merry Christmas
Are those the true Calgarians you speak of or the 80% of the population that have moved here for a better way of life and can't seem to handle our roads with snow and ice? :D ;D Smilies in effect here, but man am I PO'd. hahahaha
Trails/hubs in... roads/hubs out. Sometimes but not always. Oh wait...it's my choice. ;)
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There's the rub, a part-time t-case has a differential between front and rear and I actually said that would perform better since it allows slip, but one that locks front and rear like the one in the Rubi has the issues I stated.
whoops misunderstood :o
but i agree with what you were saying
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We can all agree its a choice. And its the internet, so all of this is opinions ::)
i am quite sure that most people do not read my posts and believe it to be 100% true. i think the same could be said for ALL of us on the internet. We draw from the many opinions and either re formulate our own or disregard.
At all times i was talking about COLD days/nights where the 'bare looking' cement is still slick. Its so cold that sanding streets with SALT is a waste as the salt will not melt. Is that engineering? sorry, chemistry.
We also were talking about 4wd in HI, not anything to do with lockers. Plain and simple lockers on any surface other than OFFROAD is stupid, but still a choice (Right Gun? ;))
And 2wd refers to rear drive not FWD.
Pat the engineer,
i am traveling down a road in a vehicle that has NO weight to the rear end (jeeps and pick up trucks) and i am in 2wd. i am on a surface that if i were in my board shoes, i could freely slide along this surface, are you telling me that 2wd will have better manners than 4wd on corners and bridges at higher speeds?
If i have 4wd, will i not have a greater contact of traction to this surface, than if i were in 2wd because my front and rear ends are holding me to this surface?
Remember, we are talking surfaces that will not harm your tcase/tranny/front axle, etc in any way because the surface does not have enough traction to cause damage. Obviuosly, we know the effects can be harmful driving on dry summer pavement. But, it still does no harm during major rainfalls...
PS, just so its not taken incorrectly. i said you post elaborately on every forum at CJA but i did not say the info you post is worthless.
Thanks
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Can someone explain to me how the brake system is connected to the transfer case?
Sorry if I'm understanding your question wrong.
If you have it in 4x4 the front brakes can't lock up without locking the rears up, because it's in 4wd, front connected to the rear which Pat so elabourately explained. So, you are more or less using the front brakes to help the rear slow down, before they (the front tires) lock up and you effectively reduce the braking force of the front, because they start sliding.
So no, the brake system isn't directly connected to the transfer case but rather works through the transfer case.
Sorry...that's the silliest thing I have ever heard. If anything, the force from the engine that is transferred to the front driveshaft keeps you from braking better....the brakes now have to deal wit rolling resistance, AND the force from the engine.
Talking stick, if you don't have your foot on the clutch, so in gear, and you have it in 2wd, the force from the engine goes to the rear diff, so the force of the engine is there if you're in 2hi or 4hi, makes no difference. Auto, it's still there but you have some play.
Well if it were mathematics instead of engineering, perhaps I could try.
Maybe there are some engineers on here, but correct me if I'm wrong but, don't math and engineering kinda go hand in hand?
I started out pointing out the engineering reasons behind a limitation of the part-time 4 wheel drive and look at the battle that ensues! I didn't realize giving someone the actual underlying engineering so that they can make an informed choice was such a crime. Perhaps we should keep them in the dark and uninformed.
I think the battle is from you trying to use the "I have an engineering background card and have an answer for everything" that most people have the problem with. I've had to fix a lot of problems because some engineer doesn't really understand how stuff works; sits behind a desk, knows the theory but has never seen the real world.
I think what Tom and Todd are trying to say is that they know how their 4x4 systems work, it can make your commute more safe if you know how to use it and drive defensively. It also may help you stop more controlled. Me personally, use 4x4 if it's slippery. I know I can get placed eventually using 2wd but it can be a pain spinning out, wide tires (I'm sure most people also have MT's maybe siped; less than optimal on ice) on a short wheel base vehicle....... It's not worth the risk of the back end kicking out going down a main stretch of road if you know it's slippery when you have the option of using 4x4. Especially considering the manual states you can shift between 2H and 4H up to 88kph. Thus implying it's ok for slick roads in town.
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it all boils down to common sense. if you dont use it, 2 or 4wd isnt going to help at all.
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The biggest safety concern to me on slippery roads is stopping, I don't think 4wd really helps that.
What does, is weight and good tires.
I've got an extra 2500Lbs on the truck right now, only had to use 4wd on that one Icy Friday, rarely spin a tire and ABS has only come on a few times.
Oh, and do I need to put a disclaimer in here that I do not hold an engineering degree and that these are my thoughts, not yours ;D
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I'd be willing to bet that having the front end engaged would increase stopping distance wet, icy or dry. Engaged, the minute you take your foot of the throttle your rig is working against more running gear. Slightly more friction with all the extra parts turning. Same idea as coasting down hill in 2wd or coasting down hill in 2wd with it in gear. Just seeems logical to me.
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my 2 cents,
I put studded hankook winter tires on my wifes caravan, they are friggin' awesome, can go any where, and the van stops almost like on dry pavement,
I put hankook's without studs on my golf, they perform really well, night and day difference between winters and all seasons.
I remember driving my old two wheel drive (one wheel drive ? ) pickup on icy roads. It sucked big time. If I had 4wd i would have used it as often as possible.
I lost track trying to understand the technical fulltime part time locker discussion. Maybe using 4wd on a vehicle could damage it ( not sure how ) but a broken vehicle can be fixed alot easier than broken people.
well actually not really, it's cheaper to fix broken bones rather than dented fenders ;D ;D ;D but you probably get my point.
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I'd be willing to bet that having the front end engaged would increase stopping distance wet, icy or dry. Engaged, the minute you take your foot of the throttle your rig is working against more running gear. Slightly more friction with all the extra parts turning. Same idea as coasting down hill in 2wd or coasting down hill in 2wd with it in gear. Just seeems logical to me.
if your foot is hard on the brakes, and wheels are locked up and sliding, it doesn't matter if you are in two wheel or 4 wheel drive.
without the wheels locked up and skidding, wheels still turning, you maybe right. But i'd take that bet, because i think it would be a very close call. what you want to bet ? a tim hortons gift card :) nothing to big 'cause I might lose ;D
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they are friggin' awesome, can go any where,
I wanted to prove this by taking it to the falls, but she wouldn't let me :'(
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if your foot is hard on the brakes, and wheels are locked up and sliding, it doesn't matter if you are in two wheel or 4 wheel drive.
without the wheels locked up and skidding, wheels still turning, you maybe right. But i'd take that bet, because i think it would be a very close call. what you want to bet ? a tim hortons gift card :) nothing to big 'cause I might lose ;D
My question would be, why are your brakes locked up and skidding to begin with? There's never any braking power to a rig locked up. That's why old school rigs you pump the brakes and new school have anti lock. That way the rig slows you down with gears and friction.
Tim Horton's card...ouch....I'm just a carpenter not an injunear. :)
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it all boils down to common sense. if you dont use it, 2 or 4wd isnt going to help at all.
Couldn't agree more. Really frustrating when people don't use there brain...ooops sorry forgot that's optional now a day's.
Most common things I see is a fwd car approaching an icy intersection with a slight incline, they chose to stay on the shiny black ice. Instead of picking their line and putting a tire on the pack snow, where the gravel's been cumulated. When the green light turns, they floor it and wonder why they're not going anywhere. Or leaving enough space between the car in front of them, and slowly inch forward, so when the light turns green they're not at a complete stand still. Small things that can help traffic flow.
I don't drive around in 4WD during the winter unless I can feel the road is icy or there's enough snow that I can feel the Cherokee sliding when changing lanes. This year I bought a set of Studded Winter tires for the jeep, and even with the amount of snow and icy roads the past week, haven't really felt the need too shifted to 4wd. Except for the odd time I want to play and mess with people's mind at the lights. Shift to 4WD, giver gas and she takes off instantly. And yes, she comes to halt in hurry when you need too.
The tires have pretty much paid for themselves, emergency braking to avoid an accident on crowchild, and the fact that I don't drive around in 4WD saves me tons of gas.
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Haha, i have to get in on this debate ! full time 4x4 is just what is says, its full time! with the np203 transfer case you have a 4 hi, 4 low ,4 hi lock and 4 low lock, these transfer case's had a differential to "split" power between the front axle and the rear axle, it works just the same as an open diff in your front or rear axle, unless the both front wheels are locked up by an obstacle or whatever, the front drive shaft always turns, but can turn at different speeds than the rear axle!
part time 4x4 with open diffs, will cause the truck to hop and chirp tires in high traction situations when you are turning, because the front and rear axle have different distances to travel when turning. part time systems are more efficient than full time as there are less parts turning when in 2wd. auto locking hubs allow you the efficiency of a part time transfer case with benefits of full time 4x4, you can easily shift 2wd before turning on high traction surfaces to ease some of the stress on drive line components. i personally drive my tuck in 4x4 when there is snow on the road and almost always drive 2wd at speeds over 80 kph. i definitely agree there is added stress to the drive line in 4wd . in my opinion the benefits of being in 4x4 are far greater than the disadvantages of not being in 4x4 on low traction roads. in 4x4 i notice my steering is stiffer my turning radius is larger and my truck is a bit noisier, but i can corner faster, stop quicker, accelerate quicker, and my favorite to be able to drive though snow banks, lanes that are undrivable to other vehicles and take short cuts ;). the one thing this gives me is the ability to drive out of any situation, where as in 2wd i don't have as much control.
In short full time 4wd is not a true 4x4 it is the same idea as in awd car and can be driven on any surface with out any concern. Part time in theory should only be used when needed, and can cause considerable wear on components when used on dry high traction surface.
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Well if it were mathematics instead of engineering, perhaps I could try.
Stunting eh? I don't like the people not able to go, if the intersection is that slippery as many are, then I use 4x4 to get going. Many of the 4x4s are probably engaged, but if they have a part-time system, then they can still spin one wheel without traction control or lockers, two if they put it into full time 4Wd and don't have traction control or lockers. Many of them also have the crappy all-seasons that come on the vehicle from the factory like Michies Liberty had. They were *terrible* even IN 4x4.
Then with all the increased braking, traction and control, I suggest that you drive in 4x4 all year around since there is negligible slippage. Shouldn't be a problem whatsoever
i always thought engineering was the application of mathematics and physics. is it not? i'm not much for equations and the like, so i go with what i know:
4x4 engaged slows the rig down while NOT on the brakes. this is good; brakes on ice tend to make for locked up rigs and sliding........... heavy vehicle + speed - traction = slip'n'slide. so i try to stay away from brakes. thats physics. i also know good tires can slow that equation down cause it increases friction!
4x4 helps me go quicker off the line. i like that. I also know that winter months have a lot of snow/ice/slicker conditions, so i keep it in 4x4; i've heard that the torque split to multiple wheels is good because instead of one tire pulling with 100% engine force, you have two tires, with twice the surface area, and half the torque power. this is mathematics and physics. i'd rather not talk about the physics of lockers and why it doesn't help this situation though. (not an engineer so i don't know)
thats my mathematics. i don't bother with the minimal difference between what looks to be 'dry' pavement in the winter and snow covered pavement. guess i'm just lazy so i leave it engaged in 4x4. in regards to runnin it in the summer, i wouldn't do that either. thats silly. we know 4x4 is harder on things especially when you have good traction. i don't think theres a lot of city roads with 'really good' traction right now; so i'm cool with 4x4. benefits outweigh the drawbacks in my book.
anyways, regardless, drive safe out there. its been stated before, this is all means nothing if you drive like an idiot........... 2wd, 4wd, brakes, whateva. don't matter if you don't have common sense.
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in my cherokee i run 4Hi on the roads when there slick otherwise with the boggers i go no where
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FML, I started a monster. :o
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I will stand corrected, I was playing arround tonight and braking with 4hi on did slow me down and resisted lock up betterthan in 2hi, so that is a good thing.
so driving in 4x4 can help with braking.
but I still stand by my point that with worn out or most mud tires( I have heard some are very nice with snow, ice on the other hand...), and many all-terrain or all season tires, winter driving is better with winter tires.
I am sure most will agree with this.
And this is why I will still laugh a little when the 4x4 guys and gals say they don't need more siping in a tire(basically they are wanting a big blocky tire to look cool) because they know how to drive and it is a 4x4
FML, I started a monster. :o
don't worry, I find it interesting the number of different opinions out there and how the thread moved in different directions, I found out a few things, so it was worth it for me.
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South of Gasoline Alley on the way to Calgary a couple weeks ago:
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/RedDogAlberta/Alberta/233-1.jpg)
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Have to get in on this one.......
I'll usually lock the hubs and go to 4hi if I can kick the tires loose in 2wd, if I can't I'll stay in 2wd. You will stop faster in 4wd, the drive train will prevent either the front or the back from locking seperately, front and rear tires will have to lock together which gives less of a chance of locking your tires up. I all ways pick a lane with a ditch, thats my out. You'll stop faster and at least you will only damage your own vehicle. Growing up in northern BC I've been in the ditch many times dodging animals, snow plows and other vehicles fish tailing in to my lane. In my opinion, you don't have time to think if something is going to happen. You need a plan, my plan is the ditch, if I need to stop I hit the ditch, if I can't stop I hit the ditch, if I'm losing control I aim for the ditch, if another vehicle is coming at me losing control I hit the ditch, I don't think about it, I just do it. I've never hit anything, but I have been in the ditch a few times. ;D
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Makes sense....I wasn't thinking of the drivetrain's ability to overpower the brake's ability to lock up.
and yes, the ditch is a good choice.
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Have to get in on this one.......
I'll usually lock the hubs and go to 4hi if I can kick the tires loose in 2wd, if I can't I'll stay in 2wd. You will stop faster in 4wd, the drive train will prevent either the front or the back from locking seperately, front and rear tires will have to lock together which gives less of a chance of locking your tires up. I all ways pick a lane with a ditch, thats my out. You'll stop faster and at least you will only damage your own vehicle. Growing up in northern BC I've been in the ditch many times dodging animals, snow plows and other vehicles fish tailing in to my lane. In my opinion, you don't have time to think if something is going to happen. You need a plan, my plan is the ditch, if I need to stop I hit the ditch, if I can't stop I hit the ditch, if I'm losing control I aim for the ditch, if another vehicle is coming at me losing control I hit the ditch, I don't think about it, I just do it. I've never hit anything, but I have been in the ditch a few times. ;D
This set of tactics makes a LOT of sense.
4X4 will not allow you to defy the laws of physics, and it will MOSTLY help you to get going faster...but a vehicle that is in 4X4 is less likely to have one or two wheels lock up.
Hmmmm....the fact that you grew up in Hudson's Hope probably has something to do with knowing a few things about winter driving. For those of you that don't know, HWY 29 is usually pretty horrific during the winter months. Lots of hills, sharp turns (some of the decreasing radius turns), and little to no shoulder. And logging trucks to dodge. :o
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We've had this discussion here before. In fact, the exact same one.
The use of 4hi will only bind and cause understeer during sharp turns where the differential does not have time to keep up. Under normal road driving "binding" is virtually non existant. If it did exist, you would not be able to get the case out of 4hi after using it on a dry surface.
Like when Denise tried to remove the ZJ from 4hi last month, when she had 456 gear in the front, and 355's in the rear. Not fun.
As for whether or not you drive in 4wd or 2wd when the roads are bad, honestly, who cares. Its your decision to do whatever you are comfortable with, or what ever makes you more comfortable when on the bad roads.
Just so long as everyone understands there is no additional risk or wear and tear above normal if you decide to drive to and from work using 4hi.
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Um, I''ve had an '07 Liberty for a month now. Snow season is approaching.
Any pointers as to how to drive reasonably, using the 2wd, 4hi, and 4lo options?
For those who help people out, what kind of additional hardware would I need to add so that could moderately help others?
'07 Sport, 3.7L, 6M... pretty much stock as far as I can tell...
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I would be wary of helping people. accidents happen and so do lawsuits.
Drive in 2wd unless you have a FT and PT (full-time and part-time) selector on your transfer case. then you can use FT all year long if you want. (read manual)
If you are on snow or slippery areas you can go to 4wheel hi until dry pavement then back to 2 wheel drive.
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i've heard those Liberties are 'trail rated'
be careful though; 4wd doesn't help you slow down, and won't stop you from sliding into someone else. these libbies are tough but they still scratch pretty easy and get hungup on the smallest of obstacles.
if you want to help, keep a cell phone charger handy so you can help stuck people call towtrucks, or pack some good boots and wintergear to help push cars out of snowbanks..............
welcome to Calgary.
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ZOMBIE POST!!!! :o :o :o
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that's why we keep posts. so people can search and read rather than start a new post on the same thing every other day.
if the person started a new post, who would say "have you used the search"?
come on...
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If you help pull someone out, Have them attach the end to their vehicle. That will take the pressure of you if their bumper or rotted out tow point comes flying off
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Thanks for replies.
Should I install tow hooks up front, just in case? Or rear (if there is a place for them)?
Where can one still get good metal bumpers for the '07 Liberties? It seems everyone has dropped them from their inventory.
Zombie post perhaps, but snow/city/jeeps....never ending.....
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i had an '02 with offroad pkg, tow hooks mounted (hanging down) where indicated in pic below,
for rear tug point it had tow pkg 2" receiver
bare roads "2wd", during the snowy days of winter "fulltime"
i found fulltime noticably harder on gas and robbed some hp
(http://www.msc-inc.ca/willys/libtowhooks.jpg)
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Rocky Road Outfitters makes one, ARB makes one as well. They are around just most people won't have one listed or in stock as they aren't a hot selling item.
A shovel, cellphone and a bag of sand are the best things you could carry. If you want to get into towing you'll need a good tow point on your vehicle (even a trailer hitch would work), a recovery strap and some smarts.
Look the tow over and make sure you're not going to rip anything off their vehicle or yours. Also be sure you are in a safe position where you're not going to get run over by the next idiot driving through, or that if you get stuck yourself you're not blocking the road even more.
Liability is a huge issue, if you rip their axle off whos gonna pay for it? They have the saying nice guys finish last for a reason.
Good luck and happy towing!
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ZOMBIE POLAR BEAR...winter is coming
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OLC_7s1u7ho/R4PKbwX84lI/AAAAAAAAAKY/P-UlHboxqRk/s400/Zombie_Zoo__Polar_Bear_by_Zatransis.jpg)