Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: jpthing on February 13, 2010, 06:37:00 PM
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A good friend of mine who has been an engine builder at D&W performance (one of calgary's premeire speed shops) for several years mentioned the other day that he has started seeing Jeep inline 6 engines fail more often and he says it is due to newer oil formulas. According to him the new oils contain less zinc which causes camshaft failures in older style engines with flat tappet cams. His suggestion was to use a diesel oil or a zinc additive. Considering the abuse and high revs I subject my engines to in my Jeeps I took his advice and started using diesel oil. Diesel oil grades are different, though, which is a little annoying for winter, 15w40 is very common, 10w40 is available, and 10w30 is rare. Ive never seen 5w30 diesel oil. I figured the cold flow properties were most important and statrted using Rotella 5w40 synthetic on the logic that it will flow well at cold temps, and will offer better protection at high revs.
Has anyone else heard about this zinc issue?
If so what oil do you run?
What are people's thoughts on running 5w40 synthetic diesel oil?
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A co-worker at work recently bought a hi performance pimped out engine for his Corvette out of the US. He was told use an oil for break in that had zinc in it. I believe he used Shell Rotella.
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i believe we use 0W-40 for the 3.0L bluetec diesel grands. its mobil 1 so its a little pricey. but may be another option.
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I heard hardly davidson oil has a lot of zinc in it and some of there bikes have flat tappit cams. 505 performance also makes roller cams and lifters for the 4 litre
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You can get 0-40 in a variety of different brands. I've be using diesel oil in gas engines for alot of years without any issues.
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the newest blend of deisel oils do not have as much added zinc for the cleaner burning diesles with particulate filters. the article i read on the amsoil site recommended using a racing blend of oil. Ive also read about pople running breakin compounds with every oil change or in my 58 willies im running a lucas oil additive
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I would not recommend running diesel oil in your gas engine. I have hear about it usually from old farmers.
The additives are what make up the differences. At work Cat has different oils for the application of the engine. On highway, off road equipment, Gas compression, marine, same engine but each application the engine is producing different horse powers. So higher horse power = more heat = bigger and better cooling systems.
So by putting diesel oil in you gas engine the engine will not be getting the proper additives it needs, and the cooling from the oil will not be correct. Remember diesel is compression ignition so they run much hotter so the oils absorb heat differently. So my professional opinion is by running diesel oil you will cook your bearings and wash your piston walls. You may see a slit increases on your coolant temp gage but this is reading coolant witch is getting lots of air over the fins. If you are concerned about your oil buy a good quality oil and up the maintains and change it more often. I am not a big fan of snake oils, at stock or with a lumpy cam we are not exceeding the engines threshold buy any means so it is a waste of money. Just change your oil.
The major risen for seeing an increase in 4.0L in machine shops is they are a popular engine and they are getting up there in mileage. Same thing happened 10 to 15 years ago with Ford 5.0Ls
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I work as a tech for a company with a fleet that is 1200+. All we run in the entire fleet, gas or diesel, on rotella diesel oil. We have next to no engine failures. The company did a bunch of research before coming to this decision and I have been told that the additive package in a high end diesel oil,like Rotella, supercedes the requirements of normal gas engines. The one benifit of running a diesel oil in a gas engine is that they are super clean inside. I have had a few apart for and I have never seen engines with so little sludge/carbon buildup in my life, du to the fact that diesel engine oil has very high levels of detergents compared to normal oils.
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I now a lot of fleets do that but they are buying oil in bulk. For the average Joe what is the cost difference between high end gas oil verses high end diesel oil.
In the end the big thing is change the %^&* oil regularly in a "proactive manner".
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I would not recommend running diesel oil in your gas engine. I have hear about it usually from old farmers.
The additives are what make up the differences. At work Cat has different oils for the application of the engine. On highway, off road equipment, Gas compression, marine, same engine but each application the engine is producing different horse powers. So higher horse power = more heat = bigger and better cooling systems.
So by putting diesel oil in you gas engine the engine will not be getting the proper additives it needs, and the cooling from the oil will not be correct. Remember diesel is compression ignition so they run much hotter so the oils absorb heat differently. So my professional opinion is by running diesel oil you will cook your bearings and wash your piston walls. You may see a slit increases on your coolant temp gage but this is reading coolant witch is getting lots of air over the fins. If you are concerned about your oil buy a good quality oil and up the maintains and change it more often. I am not a big fan of snake oils, at stock or with a lumpy cam we are not exceeding the engines threshold buy any means so it is a waste of money. Just change your oil.
The major risen for seeing an increase in 4.0L in machine shops is they are a popular engine and they are getting up there in mileage. Same thing happened 10 to 15 years ago with Ford 5.0Ls
You seem to have a lot of expertise but you have copletely sidestepped the zinc issue.
It's a fact that the I6 Jeep engine was designed for oils with more zinc.
So you don't think the lower zinc levels in newer oils is a big deal?
What do you mean by a good quality oil? shell or penzoil or whatever type brand name stuff or royal purple and lucas type super premium stuff? Or synthetics like mobil one?
What type of snake oils are you referring to?
Let's not confuse things with discussing oil change interval...obviously you should change your oil, and shortening the interval certainly can't hurt...but if each time you are filling the crankcase with an oil which has a formula not quite right for the engine, changing it more often doesn't address the issue. I could flush my cooling system daily with tartar sauce and I'm pretty sure it would not work well, depite the increased maintenance. (i guess you never know, though...perhaps I'll try this...)
The guy who told me about this knows more about engines than everyone else I know put together. Every day he builds engines that cost customers $10k and up (well some are less but most are more) and can literally ramble on forever about the most obsdcure minutia of the performance engine world. If I had heard this from any less reputable source I would have considered it a wive's tail, but considering the source I took it seriously.
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I am thinking if zinc was a major component in the oil and it was removed due to environmental issues or the sheer cost of it then a replacement would have been put in. These companies have rooms of engineers and testing facility to make sure the oil will stand up. I really think for the abuse we are giving our engines on the street and trail a failure will not be the result of the oil its self. maintain your engine and remember they do where out. 300 000 + km on a engine and then having to rebuild it is normal.
With oil you get what you pay for, and I am not a big fan of synthetic in a engine. one for the cost I can change my oil 2.5 times and have fresh oil in it for the cost of one synthetic change. Go with a blend and then up the changes. I use to run Quakersate and now am running Modal 1, I am liking the results. in how the rig is running and performing. You have to try different things and find what you like. Some can't tell the differences some can. I just don't think running Wal-Mart's no name is a good thing. I don't care if the high school kid with a A in auto shop says it is the same as what ever other brand, if it is half the price there is a resin. and the sticker on the front is not the resin.
The snake oils I am referring to is all the additives. everyone has one nowadays, I like Lukas in my diff's but for the engine just oil. I don't see an advantage in running it in an engine. When I was pitting for a racing team back home we won all kind of different oils but never used them. we just used Quakersate performance blend. after every race we changed the oil and during the week the pan came off the bottom end was inspected. and we never cooked an engine du to lubrication issues.
I would like to know the mileage on the engines that your buddy is rebuilding and what condition they are in.
By the way you where saying an anther tread that you where in not so common, no schooling trade. What trade would that be?
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I did a little poking around and found this:
http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/FlatTappetCamTechBulletin.pdf
what I do is a little tough to describe. Our company provides support to retailers that lack the expertise to deal with the technical aspects of products they sell. These products include fitness equipment, barbeques, bicycles, powersports equipment as well as too many other things to mention. We also provide similar services to the public. The most interesting technical challenges usually come from the treadmills and the electric bicycles. There are no published specs, computer protocols vary widely from brand to brand and the makers often seem to know less about the machines than my techs do. Combine that with shaky parts availability and you get some exciting adventures in treadmill repair. It would be so nice if there was something along the lines of OBDII for treadmills! much of the time we are forced to rely on intuition or trial and error to come to a diagnosis when one is not functioning correctly.
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barbeque's.................bicycles.................and treadmills...............and you actually get into arguments with people professionally trained in the very things you post about. you are amazing. i must admit, i now come here daily to see what new and wonderfull advice you have bestowed onto us.
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Zinc has been pulled out of rotella every year for the last few years, so the discussion regarding rotella here is irrelevant.
There are two ways to meet the ZDDP lub requirements of the flat tappet 4.0
You can use hi zinc content oils or zinc additives. there are specific amsoil race oils, also there are a small few generics that have zinc as well. I've been told petro cans brand as it, but I've never used it myself.
The other method is to use an oil that is spec'd for a flat tappet engine. North american standards stopped specing their oils for flat tappet engines several years ago. No matter what an oil bottle says for american standards, you have no way of knowing if it meets flat tappet lubrication properties.
Europeans still test for flat tappet properties. You can tell if an oil is european tested by the letters "ACEA".
Flat tappet specific ACEA standards are A3, and B1. So, if you can find an oil that has ACEA A3 or B1, you have an oil that has been tested and meets flat tappet lub requirements.
A lot of synthetics have the ACEA ratings. Just be carefull which ones you are looking at.
Lastly, be carefull when using zinc additives. Zinc is detrimental to cat converter life. To much can significantly reduce the life of your cats.
The 4 litre was the last flat tappet engine left in production in north america. Most oil makers simply dont test and lable most of their oils for flat tappet testing. Unless they are testing them to euro standards of course.
Dodge has had an influx early cam failures during the last 5 years of the 4.0, and it has been attributed to todays oil properties.
Corey Kruchowski a known 4.0 builder on here had 6 out of 20 cams failure about 2 years ago. He changed oils for his customers and has not had one come back since.
The ZDDP issue has been known, and been around for years with the muscle car crowd.
The issue that is unique to the 4.0 is that we have flat tappets and the catalytic converters. Making the use of large quantities of Zinc somewhat risky.
There is a lot of info on this stuff all over the net. A morning with google will educate anyone interested in this topic.
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Ok so what oil has enough zinc in it that we can get here in calgary for our 4.0's?
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Ok so what oil has enough zinc in it that we can get here in calgary for our 4.0's?
Did you even bother to read what I just wrote, cause your answer is in there.
Is that not plain enough? Maybe you would prefer one us hand deliver some oil to your house? For christ sakes..........................
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Zinc has been pulled out of rotella every year for the last few years, so the discussion regarding rotella here is irrelevant.
That explains why my co-worker was after the jugs of Rotella we had collecting dust in the back of the oil room. Was probably old stock that still had the zinc in it...
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i know nothing of ZINC but i do know Rotella T 10-40 Diesel oil to run in:
my race dirtbike as do most racers
my Victory street bike
my Dodge Ram 12V
It is so cheap!
Lots of internet stuff regarding Rotella T. i will search so Bnine doesn't bite my head off :D as to when and how much zinc reduction occurred over the years.
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Looky what i found!
Though marketed as an engine oil for diesel trucks, Rotella oil has found popularity with motorcyclists as well. The lack of "friction modifiers" in Rotella means they do not interfere with wet clutch operations. (This is called a "shared sump" design, which is unlike automobiles which maintain separate oil reservoirs - one for the engine and one for the transmission). Used oil analysis (UOA) reports on BobIsTheOilGuy.com have shown wear metals levels comparable to oils marketed as motorcycle-specific.
Now i know why bikes like it!
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Zinc has been pulled out of rotella every year for the last few years, so the discussion regarding rotella here is irrelevant.
Bill, i have been googling but i can find no evidence of your statement above???
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GM makes and oil additive package called EOS(Engine oil suppliment) It is designed to be added to zinc reduced oil as a supliment for flat tappet cam applications. It is about $10 a bottle. So $10 dollars an oil change is good insurance. It is what I use, I used to work for an engine rebuilder, we put it in every new build to assist with break in. Plus you can buy it at every GM dealer.
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barbeque's.................bicycles.................and treadmills...............and you actually get into arguments with people professionally trained in the very things you post about. you are amazing. i must admit, i now come here daily to see what new and wonderfull advice you have bestowed onto us.
wow you seem really determined to turn an interesting discussion into a flame war...what's up with that?
How about I don't disparage your profession and you don't insult mine...I could share some really interesting stories about things I have seen professional licenesed techs do at some of my client's shops...also consider that our customers prefer our expertise to using their own staff, even though many of our clients have 20+ licenesed auto techs already on site and on payroll. We each have our areas of expertise. You should see some of the hilarious bike repairs we have corrected after one of the auto techs tried to fix up some customer...let alone what our trained, licenced (motor)bike techs have seen these guys do to some quads and bikes...
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Bill, i have been googling but i can find no evidence of your statement above???
I've seen it tom, but having been in so many oil discussions I cant remember exactly where. It might have been in Coreys oil thread on pirate, or on one of the links from an oil board, or the stroker one.
I do know if you go to an "oil" board, and yes, there are entire forums dedicated to oil, they will direct you to the literature related to the reduction in ZDDP shell has made.
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Ok so what oil has enough zinc in it that we can get here in calgary for our 4.0's?
I guess you were just looking for someone's advice and you got jumped on, sorry.
I am in the process of trying to figure this out myself.
currently I am using Shell Rotella T6 5W40. I believe the package says it's for gas or diesel. It's synthetic andd costs $30 a jug at crappy T.
According to my engine builder buddy, any diesel oil is good. But it's hard to find 5w30 diesel oil.
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GM makes and oil additive package called EOS(Engine oil suppliment) It is designed to be added to zinc reduced oil as a supliment for flat tappet cam applications. It is about $10 a bottle. So $10 dollars an oil change is good insurance. It is what I use, I used to work for an engine rebuilder, we put it in every new build to assist with break in. Plus you can buy it at every GM dealer.
This sounds like another good option. I guess this is a real issue and not just an urban legend.
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how do "many of your clients have 20+ licensed auto techs", and yet you never said you worked on cars. and anywhere that a shop has 20+ licensed techs, would more then likely be a dealership, in which case they would easily be able to deal with any issue, and not require the services of forest gump inc.
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how do "many of your clients have 20+ licensed auto techs", and yet you never said you worked on cars. and anywhere that a shop has 20+ licensed techs, would more then likely be a dealership, in which case they would easily be able to deal with any issue, and not require the services of forest gump inc.
If you weren't so confrontational I would be inclined to discuss this further.
Does it make you feel better about yourself to call others names and be insulting?
Do you want to explore topics or just to "win"?
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I've seen it tom, but having been in so many oil discussions I cant remember exactly where. It might have been in Coreys oil thread on pirate, or on one of the links from an oil board, or the stroker one.
I do know if you go to an "oil" board, and yes, there are entire forums dedicated to oil, they will direct you to the literature related to the reduction in ZDDP shell has made.
Thanks Bill. i took a chance you had it somewhere close.
And, yes that search button needs to be used. Especially TIRE and LIFT threads :rolleyes:
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how do "many of your clients have 20+ licensed auto techs", and yet you never said you worked on cars. and anywhere that a shop has 20+ licensed techs, would more then likely be a dealership, in which case they would easily be able to deal with any issue, and not require the services of forest gump inc.
why do guys like you ruin good threads with your personal attacks and then not even respond to direct questions? I can understand if this was more of what you consider "bad tech advice" but for the love of god it's a thread about oil. And I'm just saying what I was told and I clearly represented it as 2nd hand information.
dude relax...or something
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Did you even bother to read what I just wrote, cause your answer is in there.
Is that not plain enough? Maybe you would prefer one us hand deliver some oil to your house? For christ sakes..........................
Wow this is a great response. I think this is a great way to attract new members to your club and encourage goodwill with non members. Insulting people and swearing is a great way to improve your club's image as well.
You should be a little nicer. The guy has 32 posts so it's not like he just signed up to ask about an XJ bodylift and maybe you just turned him off the Whole CJA idea.
Remember, if it says "CJA Executive" or "CJA members" below your name, you represent your club in your posts. And this is an open forum.
;D
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Wow this is a great response. I think this is a great way to attract new members to your club and encourage goodwill with non members. Insulting people and swearing is a great way to improve your club's image as well.
You should be a little nicer. The guy has 32 posts so it's not like he just signed up to ask about an XJ bodylift and maybe you just turned him off the Whole CJA idea.
Remember, if it says "CJA Executive" or "CJA members" below your name, you represent your club in your posts. And this is an open forum.
;D
Stick a sock in it buddy.
If someone is to illiterate, and or lazy to read an answer that is already there, what use does this club have for them.
You think Im going to pamper my responses to you guys because you may or may not be perspective members? Grow up.
I dont do it for the members, non members, and Im certainly not going to do it for someone like you.
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must be tuesday eh Bill?
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Hello, I am a new member here (and a new jeep owner) and I just came across this thread and thought i'd throw down my 2 cents. As was stated here earlier the zinc issue has been well known in the muscle car community for many years.It is an issue with those engines as it is here for one reason, Flat tappet cams.New engines all use roller valvetrain so the lack of zinc is no longer an issue, it has nothing to do with the quality of the oil you use or whether or not it is synthetic or even how often you change it! If it doesnt have enough ZDDP zinc in it it is not safe to use in a flat tappet engine. In the beginning everyone came to the conclusion that they could just run diesel oil and all would be well because Diesel still "had" sufficient quantities of the zinc or "ZDDP" pressure additive. However in recent years because of increasingly tight EPA laws even those oils are having it steadily removed from them so you cannot rely on the "diesel oil is the solution" answer anymore. The only sure way to get the amount of zinc you need for your engine is to either use a zinc additive like the GM EOS supplement, or keep going back regularly to websites like "Bob is the oil guy" and see if the oil your using still contains as much as it used to from year to year. As far as needing to be careful about using ZDDP additives because they are detrimental to catalytic converters, theoretically that is true and it is why the automakers started pushing to have the stuff removed from oil, However the reason is because of new US government regulations that force them to warrant their emmisions controls equipment for and dont quote me on this but i think 100000 miles, the problem is that as small amounts of oil slip past the rings in older engines,presumably when they start getting up close to 100000 miles it gets burned and the zinc fouls the converter and makes them less effective. In a tight engine this should never be an issue. My point is Don't be misled into thinking that if you run zinc additive in your crank case your gonna instantly kill your cat, If it happens it will take a very long time.
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... I think this is a great way to attract new members to your club ....
Remember, if it says "CJA Executive" or "CJA members" below your name, you represent your club in your posts. And this is an open forum.
you need to stop pointing fingers at our (so called) CLUB. nothing here or any other threads that you are involved in has anything to do with our CLUB.
we are here to provide a meeting place for people to enjoy the activity they love. we provide a forum to discuss, we provide a guideline to enjoying the activity in a safe and responsible manner. we also organize activities and projects, etc.
that is what we are. the fact that Billy (or anyone else here) rips you a new bunghole, well point the finger at yourself, not the CJA.
while the 'member' and 'exec' titles do represent the club, it certainly does not mean there is a leash on these people.
anyway, try to keep your discussions between yourself and whoever is ripping you one - leave the CLUB references out of it.
thanks
Management
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you need to stop pointing fingers at our (so called) CLUB. nothing here or any other threads that you are involved in has anything to do with our CLUB.
we are here to provide a meeting place for people to enjoy the activity they love. we provide a forum to discuss, we provide a guideline to enjoying the activity in a safe and responsible manner. we also organize activities and projects, etc.
that is what we are. the fact that Billy (or anyone else here) rips you a new bunghole, well point the finger at yourself, not the CJA.
while the 'member' and 'exec' titles do represent the club, it certainly does not mean there is a leash on these people.
anyway, try to keep your discussions between yourself and whoever is ripping you one - leave the CLUB references out of it.
thanks
Management
I admit I got a little worked up and lashed out. I apologize for that.
That said why is it so hard for tech threads to stay on topic?
And if you guys have a rule to be couteous on the road as to not represent your club badly, it would follow that courtesy on your boards couldn't hurt either.
I came here to discuss tech. Then it turned into a war. Foolishly, I took the bait, and I have since realized the error of my ways.
I was not trying to point fingers, just point out a basic fact which is that whatever organization you belong to, if you have that organization's name below yours, or on your shirt or business card, that your conduct can be construed as that of the organization, or at least may appear to be condoned by the organization.
I would hope that the CJA would expect it's members to be civil on their boards....and remember I wasn't talking about me...the post above was in regards to a newbie who asked a simple question in response to a complicated answer and was treated poorly. To me that's bad, but hey that's just me.
To all users of this forum I apologize for my role in the stupidity that has occured.
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when i look at your name all i see below your pic is inapropriate language. what kind of message are trying to send to other people that read this board?
man if you have such a problem with the way the CJA members 'construe' themselves on their web forum, just stay off it. you've come, talked your tech and angered most people that know anything about turning a wrench.
go play on NAXJA or one of the 100s of others you've said you are affiliated with.
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I admit I got a little worked up and lashed out. I apologize for that.
That said why is it so hard for tech threads to stay on topic?
And if you guys have a rule to be couteous on the road as to not represent your club badly, it would follow that courtesy on your boards couldn't hurt either.
I came here to discuss tech. Then it turned into a war. Foolishly, I took the bait, and I have since realized the error of my ways.
I was not trying to point fingers, just point out a basic fact which is that whatever organization you belong to, if you have that organization's name below yours, or on your shirt or business card, that your conduct can be construed as that of the organization, or at least may appear to be condoned by the organization.
I would hope that the CJA would expect it's members to be civil on their boards....and remember I wasn't talking about me...the post above was in regards to a newbie who asked a simple question in response to a complicated answer and was treated poorly. To me that's bad, but hey that's just me.
To all users of this forum I apologize for my role in the stupidity that has occured.
It’s this type of response that gets people’s goat. You apologize, but you have the need to get a dig out first before you do so. You’re so sorry…."but you guys don’t know how to run a message board either." ::)
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when i look at your name all i see below your pic is inapropriate language. what kind of message are trying to send to other people that read this board?
man if you have such a problem with the way the CJA members 'construe' themselves on their web forum, just stay off it. you've come, talked your tech and angered most people that know anything about turning a wrench.
go play on NAXJA or one of the 100s of others you've said you are affiliated with.
Again I guess I am unfamiliar with what you guys consider "appropriate".
Thanks for letting me know that you feel that "A Jeep Bastard" is inappropriate below my pic.
Funny how this gets brought up now despite having been there for years.
I am unsure if that is your personal opinion or if you are speaking in your official capacity, but it's no big deal either way, I don't want to offend anyone, I will remove it.
I'm not trying to pick fights with anyone. I have apologized both individually (to some) as well as to the forum in general for my lack of good judgement and for my contribution to the stupidity that has occurred. It would be nice if we could move on.
I did not say that *I* have a problem with how CJA members "construe" themselves...what I said was that maybe it *should* be an issue for you guys...of course it's totally up to you if it is an issue or not, but to me it just makes sense that if you are trying to present a positive image with your conduct on the street and on the trail, that perhaps your members' conduct on here is something to consider as well. Again, just an opinion for you guys to consider, I am most certainly not trying to tell you how to run your club. It is up to you guys to decide what falls within the realm of "appropriate" but in my opinion, uneccesary cruelness to people simply trying to post up questions is less than ideal in a forum intended to build a jeep community.
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I didn't say you don't know how to run a message board.
I did say civility will go a long way, for a positive experience for all and for good PR.
I really wish we could talk about oil.
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Used oil is black.
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Used oil is black.
but does it still have the zinc in it?
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Lets all cut jpthing some slack.
Very rarely do people make an apology. He did and therefore, lets all move on.
jpthing, i think you have taken note of how to post without being flamed. You started on the wrong foot but it appears
that you are trying to get the train back on the tracks. Kudos to you.
CJA is a club but as my good buddy Kevin Chan said to me back in 97...
Just because you drive a jeep doesn't mean i have to like you.
i am sure there are a few...err...many that i have fumed off over the years as a member of CJA, but i have tried really hard to correct my postings over the years and now just a few don't like me.
Cheers.
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Used oil is black.
Does it smell any different than new oil?
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Yep it does.
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Would you say it is very much less appealing, less appealing, about the same, the same, more appealing or smells terrific?
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ummmmmmmmm... definately much less appealing.
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i am sure there are a few...err...many that i have fumed off over the years as a member of CJA, but i have tried really hard to correct my postings over the years and now just a few don't like me.
Cheers.
;D ;D ;D
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Some very good points in this thread. The truth is, the 4.0L either NEEDS additive or NEEDS specialty oil NOW. Not optional.
I use this these days, buy it bulk and save $$$. It's the best option right now for flat tappet engines:
http://www.cam-shield.com/ (http://www.cam-shield.com/)
or just run this at $10/litre:
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html (http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html)
or this at $12.50 litre:
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/amsoil_premium_protection_10W40_high_zinc.htm (http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/amsoil_premium_protection_10W40_high_zinc.htm)
the 4.0L can no longer be run on "off-the-shelf" engine oil of any flavour.
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Some very good points in this thread. The truth is, the 4.0L either NEEDS additive or NEEDS specialty oil NOW. Not optional.
I use this these days, buy it bulk and save $$$. It's the best option right now for flat tappet engines:
http://www.cam-shield.com/ (http://www.cam-shield.com/)
or just run this at $10/litre:
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html (http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/hotrod/index.html)
or this at $12.50 litre:
http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/amsoil_premium_protection_10W40_high_zinc.htm (http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/amsoil_premium_protection_10W40_high_zinc.htm)
the 4.0L can no longer be run on "off-the-shelf" engine oil of any flavour.
So you think even ACEA type oils are not good enough?
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So here is an unintelligent question...
After 160,000 kms of using off the shef (mostly Quakerstate Semi-synthetic) is there any point in changing oils this late in the game? I obviously want what is best for my jeep, but I once heard that one of the best things you can do for your engine is to regularly change oil using the same brand oil every time, that switching brands and weights causes it's own damage.
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So here is an unintelligent question...
After 160,000 kms of using off the shef (mostly Quakerstate Semi-synthetic) is there any point in changing oils this late in the game? I obviously want what is best for my jeep, but I once heard that one of the best things you can do for your engine is to regularly change oil using the same brand oil every time, that switching brands and weights causes it's own damage.
You could continue to use the same oil but with a zinc additive...this would hopefully be the best of both worlds?
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Red meat is a good source of Zinc... it's true!! I heard it on the radio today.
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Red meat is a good source of Zinc... it's true!! I heard it on the radio today.
So you stick your meat in your engine is what you're saying then?
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I am thinking if zinc was a major component in the oil and it was removed due to environmental issues or the sheer cost of it then a replacement would have been put in. These companies have rooms of engineers and testing facility to make sure the oil will stand up. I really think for the abuse we are giving our engines on the street and trail a failure will not be the result of the oil its self. maintain your engine and remember they do where out. 300 000 + km on a engine and then having to rebuild it is normal.
With oil you get what you pay for, and I am not a big fan of synthetic in a engine. one for the cost I can change my oil 2.5 times and have fresh oil in it for the cost of one synthetic change. Go with a blend and then up the changes. I use to run Quakersate and now am running Modal 1, I am liking the results. in how the rig is running and performing. You have to try different things and find what you like. Some can't tell the differences some can. I just don't think running Wal-Mart's no name is a good thing. I don't care if the high school kid with a A in auto shop says it is the same as what ever other brand, if it is half the price there is a resin. and the sticker on the front is not the resin.
The snake oils I am referring to is all the additives. everyone has one nowadays, I like Lukas in my diff's but for the engine just oil. I don't see an advantage in running it in an engine. When I was pitting for a racing team back home we won all kind of different oils but never used them. we just used Quakersate performance blend. after every race we changed the oil and during the week the pan came off the bottom end was inspected. and we never cooked an engine du to lubrication issues.
I would like to know the mileage on the engines that your buddy is rebuilding and what condition they are in.
By the way you where saying an anther tread that you where in not so common, no schooling trade. What trade would that be?
Sort of on topic...
re: the Lucas additives
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/images/lucas/lucas.htm
I used it a few years back until I saw this little demo that one of the members from Bob Is The Oil Guy did.
It seems that the Lucas additive only stands to airate the oil, and if his logic holds and aerated oil is bad I wouldn't be caught dead using it.
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I totally rip'd this off from another forum... but i figured more information is probably better... so here it is... delete it if you dont want it here.
This guy wrote to Royal Purple regarding exactly this topic.
Here is their reply posted only 2 weeks ago.
Good Morning Mr. Guignard,
What you have read and/or heard about the zinc and phosphorus (ZDDP, the industry standard anti-wear additive) content of motor oils is not completely accurate. The API SM/ILSAC GF-4 motor oil ratings that became effective in ~2004 required a reduction in the maximum allowable amount of phosphorus in an engine oil. This is a de facto restriction on ZDDP anti-wear additive. There is no elimination of this additive, but a reduction of 20% – 35% in 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30 multi-viscosity motor oils. This restriction was introduced under the premise that phosphorus content in motor oil directly affected the useful life of catalytic converters, and OEM’s are now required to warranty their vehicle’s emission system separately from the power train. Since great majority of automobiles produced in the past decade are equipped with roller cam followers (tappets), the OEM’s were not that concerned with flat tappet wear. API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils are marginal for stock flat tappet cams, at best. If an engine uses a ‘larger’, more aggressive flat tappet camshaft and stiffer valve springs, premature cam and lifter wear is likely.
We at Royal Purple have chosen to hold most of our API rated oils back to API SL/ILSAC GF-3 precisely because of the potential for increased engine wear. Furthermore, in a properly functioning engine, oil consumption is minimal and highly unlikely to prematurely degrade the catalytic converter. For stock build valve trains in the Jeep 4-cylinder and I-6 engines, our 10W-30 (API SL) would work very well. If the camshaft and lifters have been replaced with a more aggressive profile and stiffer valve springs, our 10W-40 would be an outstanding choice (more robust formulation with higher ZDDP content).
One thing to note, though, is that the biggest advantage of using Royal Purple oils is our Synerlec additive. Synerlec creates a high lubricant film strength and thickness, regardless of viscosity. This further reduces the chances of metal-to-metal contact in the engine (reducing wear), increases piston ring seal (more efficient operation), and greatly reduces friction (lowering operating temperatures). All of this contributes to a more allow your engine to run cooler and more efficiently, with less wear, and increases the life of your engine. Another benefit is the increased resistance to oxidation, thereby increasing the life of the oil, and therefore allowing longer oil change intervals.
- Royal Purple SAE 10W-30 (part #01130, quart bottle)
- Royal Purple SAE 10W-40 (part #01140, quart bottle)
Thank you for inquiring about Royal Purple. If you have any further questions, please let us know.
Best Regards,
Christopher Barker
Tech Services
Royal Purple, Inc.
1 Royal Purple Ln.
Porter, TX 77365
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- Royal Purple SAE 10W-30 (part #01130, quart bottle)
- Royal Purple SAE 10W-40 (part #01140, quart bottle)
Thank you for inquiring about Royal Purple. If you have any further questions, please let us know.
Best Regards,
Christopher Barker
Tech Services
Royal Purple, Inc.
1 Royal Purple Ln.
Porter, TX 77365
I'd be all over that like a fat kid on a smartie if they would have called it Royal Blue.
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Does it come in Blue?
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Does it come in Blue?
Maybe you can dye it blue?
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I've never tried it...is it actually purple then?
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I've never tried it...is it actually purple then?
apparently it is
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Holy crap...I have been putting Zinc lozenges ( for colds) into my oil for the past 3 weeks now, and the difference is noticeable...i thought my engine ran okay fpor the first 375,000km without the zinc, but not that it is in there...WOW!!!...That extra 0.2% of zinc has reduced wear, oil consumption, and gave my engine that extra uumpphh my engine has been lacking.
I dont know how any 4.0l engine could go almost 400,000 km without the extra zinc?? I guess we are all lucky to have discovered this newfound revelation in jeep salvation...
BTW..im kidding...this is garbage..so is this whole zinc issue...this thread needs more zinc so it can just keep going...and going.
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So you think even ACEA type oils are not good enough?
exactly, ask me how I know this. Ok, no don't - I'll start crying again.
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(http://aura0.gaia.com/photos/52/519761/large/Stop_Posting_On_This_Thread.jpg)
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Holy crap...I have been putting Zinc lozenges ( for colds) into my oil for the past 3 weeks now, and the difference is noticeable...i thought my engine ran okay fpor the first 375,000km without the zinc, but not that it is in there...WOW!!!...That extra 0.2% of zinc has reduced wear, oil consumption, and gave my engine that extra uumpphh my engine has been lacking.
I dont know how any 4.0l engine could go almost 400,000 km without the extra zinc?? I guess we are all lucky to have discovered this newfound revelation in jeep salvation...
BTW..im kidding...this is garbage..so is this whole zinc issue...this thread needs more zinc so it can just keep going...and going.
It's very likely that some of the 400k was on oil with higher zinc. If you're not worried then I guess you have nothing to worry about.
I thought this was an important topic, so I figured some might be interested. If you're not interested, not reading or not posting would be a more mature choice than ridiculing someone's contribution. I understand that Corey K is generally very highly respected by many in the CJA and he says it a major issue. If you disagree, then say so and explain why but to simply dismiss it as garbage reeks of prejudice and adds nothing to the discussion.
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Holy crap...I have been putting Zinc lozenges ( for colds) into my oil for the past 3 weeks now, and the difference is noticeable...i thought my engine ran okay fpor the first 375,000km without the zinc, but not that it is in there...WOW!!!...That extra 0.2% of zinc has reduced wear, oil consumption, and gave my engine that extra uumpphh my engine has been lacking.
I dont know how any 4.0l engine could go almost 400,000 km without the extra zinc?? I guess we are all lucky to have discovered this newfound revelation in jeep salvation...
BTW..im kidding...this is garbage..so is this whole zinc issue...this thread needs more zinc so it can just keep going...and going.
The only reason your engine made 400K is because of the layers of zinc which built up on the metal/metal wear surfaces for the first half or 3/4 of it's life - back when zinc levels were high.
You also have a stock *boring* camshaft in your Jeep.
The problem is typically found in new engines put together recently, or the later model Jeeps - they didn't get 250K of zinc-rich oil.
I didn't imagine all the camshaft failures in 4.0L engines in the past 2-3 years, and yes it even happened to me.
The zinc creates a sacrificial layer, or a micro-bushing, whatever you want to call it - between the metal/metal surfaces. The place it is really needed in on the cam lobes.