Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Land Issues, Trail Projects & Trail Stewardship => Topic started by: TL-Iguana on July 12, 2010, 12:54:24 PM
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Hey Guys,
I was at the meet and greet last night at Timmie's with Rich99 and Offroadnewbie, and of course quite a few other guys from the forum and it came up in conversation that nothing has really been updated in this section! It definitely seemed that there was a few of us last night that would really like to get out and get something done for the good of the club, but there seems to be nothing new posted in here. There has to be something we can all pitch in to do for the good of our sport, and to help sustain McLean, and therefore id like to volunteer my time for the weekend of July 24th and 25th. Can we come with a group project for this weekend? Some suggestions from last night were possibly going out to drain some of the really bad mud holes, or even fix portions of the fence. Even if we all go out to have a ride, and clean up garbage along the way, Id be up for putting my back into this for the good of the sport. Lets get something going here! I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be able to put in a few hours that weekend to help out!
Also, on a side note, if you haven't yet been to one of the Sunday Meet and Greets started by Rich99, your really missing out ;)
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I'm also interested in doing a project.....but I'm not sure if I'm free the 24th. I'd prefer the 25th.
If it's a whole weekend thing, I'll see what I can do....should be able to free it up :)
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I have a strong back and a weak mind and would love to spend a day doing some real work.
I can make it both days.
D
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I would be interested in helping out that weekend as well. I would be able to attend one of the two days as I bought my first house and my move in date is that weekend.
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i will probably get roasted for this but what about a drainage weekend? what i mean is go around mclean and find those problem areas that have huge mud hols that just need some quick drainage and clean them up? this would be quick and easy to organize and have lots of wheeling!
Pook
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sounds like you guys just made your own trail project.....................
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Drainage weekend.....sounds like something you do after the stampede.
I am in.
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I'm game for that Pook! BTW, I'm sure i just drove past your XJ but you weren't driving it... ;) Better have a look outside and make sure its still there! As for the drainage project, lets do it! Would you be able to lead a trail so we don't get lost in the process? Looks like Sunday would be the best day for a few other people as well, so why don't we set up for then! JohnnyC is right, it does look like we have a project here now!
:D
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Hey, I'd be up for a drainage party too :)
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i will probably get roasted for this but what about a drainage weekend? what i mean is go around mclean and find those problem areas that have huge mud hols that just need some quick drainage and clean them up? this would be quick and easy to organize and have lots of wheeling!
Pook
NOT FAIR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Pook they are ALL Big Mud holes where YOU are concerned ;)
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oh yeah im up for this too ;D
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@ simon, that was my wife driving.
@ kyle, faw-q!
unfortunatly i have a leaky wheel seal and wont take the xj on the trail while i am leaking oil all over the place so i wont be on the trail untill i get this fixed. just dont know when i will have the time to fix it.
i would totaly like to lead a drainage project as soon as the xj is fixed!
Pook
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Awesome Pook!! Well if not for that Sunday, maybe we can drag you out shotgun in another jeep! I guess ill use this same post to ask Kyle if he wants to help lead if your XJ isnt up to working... I know the feeling ;) I still have to fix my steering... ::)
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i will probably get roasted for this but what about a drainage weekend? what i mean is go around mclean and find those problem areas that have huge mud hols that just need some quick drainage and clean them up? this would be quick and easy to organize and have lots of wheeling!
Pook
I am in too... looking for my shovel and spade... can we get some hammers and staples as well and fix any broken fence we find along the way?
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yeah i ll help out where ever needed !!
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can we get some hammers and staples as well and fix any broken fence we find along the way?
Hey Rich,
I have some staples in my jeep that we use on my farm to hold up elk fence, if they will work, Ill be sure to bring them along. They are a pretty heavy guage, galvanized and about 1 and a half inches long... Maybe they are overkill for this application? They are yours to use if you think they will suffice. I also have a pick and a hammer I can bring
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I have a couple of spades and a long handled shovel or two.
Also have a pick and some pry-bars of various sizes.
I don't have a chainsaw, but do have a pretty good slitter if we need it.
I have never done this before, so if someone who has wants to post a list of tools or gear that we would need that would be great.
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Hey Rich,
I have some staples in my jeep that we use on my farm to hold up elk fence, if they will work, Ill be sure to bring them along. They are a pretty heavy guage, galvanized and about 1 and a half inches long... Maybe they are overkill for this application? They are yours to use if you think they will suffice. I also have a pick and a hammer I can bring
Perfect, I know SRD has lots but I am wondering if we can get a hold of Dave for them. If not lets use them we won't need that many actually. A few dozen just to fix up anything that might have fallen should be good. We will just patch as we see it needing some repair.
Does anyone have a chain saw?
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Blair may have a stockpile of fencing staples and fencing wire somewhere.
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If the rain keeps up you'll have a lot of draining to do, but where are you going to drain it all to?
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Hi Guys - I'm in! Let me know when and where and what to bring!
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I am game too ... but seeing I will be flying back from Seattle on Saterday, i will only be able to help out on Sunday ...
Greetz
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Maybe we could put up a bunch of signs...like trail markers, so people on the trails dont get lost or confused and head down a non marked trail...im sure the SRD has signs they would let us use!!
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Between "Trail Closed" and "Quad Only" signs I'm sure ASRD has an over abundance of those signs and I'm sure they'd be more than tickled if 4x4 clubs were to help put them up. I think the quad clubs must be getting tired of putting them all up by themselves, when they have all the trails in Indian Graves to block to anything bigger than them..
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Sunday July 25th Trail Mend Project - lets see if I can get this organized. There are a raft of people here who have committed and want to help out on this. If the exec doesn't have any objections we can go out on Sunday July 25th. They can sanction it at the next exec meeting.
We can meet at McLean Store at 9AM and spend the day scouting trails, draining water holes and fixing any fence that appears to need work. I am guessing it will be a fun day mostly with stops to mend trails and fences when required. No one should be too over worked if everyone pitches in and people take turns. The exec can sanction this run on the 21st at the general meeting.
Here is what we will need - please put your name forward for these if you can.
1. Experienced member who knows the trails at Mclean and who can also lead the run on Sunday the 25th of July. Some one who can manage the run as an official CJA project run. If you are a member who has led before put your name forward.
2. Someone who can be the lead on mending decisions... which holes to fix and the approach.
3. Someone to commit to bringing a chain saw - more than one person would be great. Sometimes you just need a chainsaw to get those logs untangled.
4. Every vehicle brings a spade on the run and commits to helping drain any holes, picks are also a good idea if you have one. We don't want the same guys digging every hole. Post in this thread if you are committed to working on this.
5. At least three people on the fence brigade - bring a hammer and supply of stapes that we can use to mend falling down fences (tliguana has committed to the staples).
6. The run leader will need help with mid and tail gunner duties. He/she will also specify the minimum requirements.
Lets see if we can get this off the ground.
Oh yes, since this a get down and dirty run you will likely need rain gear and extra clothes. Unfortunately there is no way to dig out a mud hole and stay squeaky clean.
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Sunday would work great for me Rich, and yes I definately have the staples! I can also commit to bringing a hammer, and a shovel. As for a chainsaw... I dont mind renting one if we need, the cost is justifiable for the work we are doing. Ive had enough experience on the farm with them to know how to run them safely, and I dont have an issue using one on the trail. If no one has one that is able to bring one, this is an option I dont mind pitching in for.
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I can't make it out but you will also need some barb wire. Not much but 50ft or so would be good to have. It's a pain to carry but...
There is a piece of fence that was cut open along last project recently.
After the SnS, I'm sure we can get some from the SRD yard.
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I am in and can bring:
2x Spade
1x Pick
2xPry Bars (different sizes)
1x Hammer
I think rosko has a chainsaw, and maybe we can convince him to come out.
As for anything else, I got a strong back and weak mind, so point me at the work.
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Well any of my 'material' is not going to arrive from Belgium before 2011 ...
So I will see if I can go and buy something quickly ...
PS: No chainsaw's for me ... trust me it is a safer world out there like that :-)
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Between "Trail Closed" and "Quad Only" signs I'm sure ASRD has an over abundance of those signs and I'm sure they'd be more than tickled if 4x4 clubs were to help put them up. I think the quad clubs must be getting tired of putting them all up by themselves, when they have all the trails in Indian Graves to block to anything bigger than them..
Before we know it there will be stop signs and a round a bout!
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I can't make it out but you will also need some barb wire. Not much but 50ft or so would be good to have. It's a pain to carry but...
There is a piece of fence that was cut open along last project recently.
After the SnS, I'm sure we can get some from the SRD yard.
Kevin, do you have a contact for Dave or know someone at SRD I can contact to go pick up some barbed wire and staples?
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Between "Trail Closed" and "Quad Only" signs I'm sure ASRD has an over abundance of those signs and I'm sure they'd be more than tickled if 4x4 clubs were to help put them up. I think the quad clubs must be getting tired of putting them all up by themselves, when they have all the trails in Indian Graves to block to anything bigger than them..
Seriously? Is sarcasm all but lost in this place...you put up signs posting trails and SRD will shut em down or limit what we already have...if you guys are planning to a "make your own trail cleanup adventure" , you may want to check with not only CJA exec..but other clubs ..(highriders,ECO, etc) ..and help them with what they have planned...You earn no brownie points with the CJA ( i hope) by crowding a trail with 10 noobs in stock (or close to) jeeps, trying to gain access to a club...If you guys are serious about what you have planned, pitch in to the other clubs cleups, maint etc...planning you own whatever you want to call it-gung ho-cleanup-brownie points crap is not actually going to help.
Better yet, take the time to plan ahead, take the days off planned for cleanup etc and pitch in.
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Opps...except for fixing fenceline...but you really arenmt going to call SRD for this are you...maybe ask if they want to come out too..(maybe throw a house party to and invite the cops???) Hey Rich99...how many exec mebers are going to attend your event? Im going to come out too..i will bring the brownies...
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Opps...except for fixing fenceline...but you really arenmt going to call SRD for this are you...maybe ask if they want to come out too..(maybe throw a house party to and invite the cops???) Hey Rich99...how many exec mebers are going to attend your event? Im going to come out too..i will bring the brownies...
WOW !!!!!!!!!! its a trail mud hole drain and fix a fence day ..............not call SRD and have our trails shut down !!! .........where are you going to be this day Apeman we will try not to get in your way blocking the trail with our noobish selfs
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And is Kevin not an Exec ?? Im sure he is !!! Read the posts apeman ;)
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Kevin, do you have a contact for Dave or know someone at SRD I can contact to go pick up some barbed wire and staples?
Does that answer your question?
By the way if you wantme to attend, i will be there....and if you read kevins response...he wont be there.
And if you need to know, im sure in the past 12 years i have been wheeling in mclean and waip, i have seen what drawing attention from the SRD does to our trails...if you have questions i will be free sat to answer them.
Dont judge someone by the number of posts they have Newb...some of us forgot more about jeeps than you will ever know.
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im not judging by the number of posts we need to fix the fence if asking Dave from the SRD for staples and wire (the guy we gave that stuff to at the end of the last project ) is going to cause such dispair in your life .....Then yes you can come help out on Saturday bring the staples and wire !!!!
we wanted to put up signs and such but then after a short discusion it was decided that it would bring to much attention to the trails
which is the reason were going to drain some holes and fix a fence or two
so just relax its not that big of a deal ;D
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we wanted to put up signs and such but then after a short discusion it was decided that it would bring to much attention to the trails
Well no crap sherlock...guess what the SRD looks for...signs that a trail has been used...therefore making an environmental impact...Is it going to make an impact on my life..yes!! i have been on those trails for 10+ years, and want to continue to use them....so you and the band of Trail Saviors should re-think the impact that has on the whole community.
I guarantee that not one of you has been to an AURS Meeting...especially the one that was prior to the closure of the Waip/Ghost area...we gathered, we fought, we argued, and worked...and SRD took the trails...
Is there an engineer working on said drainage you plan? Is the runoff going into the streams? Or are you just going to dig and Voila!! No more giant mud holes!! If the new jeepers need volunteer hours, stick to what is scheduled, because it is engineeered for what is needed for the trails at that time in the season....dont round up a posse, try to save the trails, and cash in your kiss arse points.
You end up joining a club that has nowhere to wheel...
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Well then its good that your going to be there to over see anything that may cause said damage see you then ;D
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Its funny i have seen the CJA Execs reading this but noone is posting what does the CJA think of these ideas ...........i think that there opionion is one that matters more to me
apemans opionion matters as well but i think i would like to hear what CJA says
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Well then its good that your going to be there to over see anything that may cause said damage see you then
WOW!! And you are a member?
Go ahead...maybe you can get a grater in there and smooth out any rough spots in the trail...what do i know...You guys just rip up the trails as you see fit...you are truly doing us all a favor...
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WOW!! And you are a member?
Go ahead...maybe you can get a grater in there and smooth out any rough spots in the trail...what do i know...You guys just rip up the trails as you see fit...you are truly doing us all a favor...
This was all just a simple day out ..........fix a fence ........drain off a couple of over filling mud holes pretty simple really allmost just an excuse to get out there.... instead of just ripping it up trying to help it ....rather then ripping it up and trying to do something about it when SRD says were shutting it down .........like they did on you at said meeting that i didnt attend
i mean really EVERYTHING that has been brought up has been shut down ....do to well it might draw to much attention
so nothing gets done
maybe we should all sit back and do NOTHING untill its to late then try and do something
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im done discussing it ill leave it to the execs ...........you make valid points but on the same token its a few shovels not a back hoe ...i guess we will see what they say
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Fixing fencelines, yes...draining mud holes no! Unless you have someone who has bio-engineered what is being done, then it should not be done...the shut down most of waiporous because of unsettling creekbeds from our mud/dirt contaminating streams...brridges were built...and still no...there is damage to the area done by simple draining out mud holes...that water and mud /silt blah blah has to got somewhere...unless someone with knowledge of what that repair is going to do in the next 2-5 years approves it, then dont start digging it out...for all you know, you, and the 8 newest, and most eager jeepers , are going to dig into something...and with next years spring rainfall, could turn that minor mudhole into a washout..a new 3 foot flowing creek....give water somewhere to go it becomes a creek...and unpassable..
For all i care, you guys just want to head out and start digging, clean up the neighbourhood....well some of us have lived in the neighbourhood a long time...and know you dont just go tearing things down.
Please all newbies reading this...there is more to consider than just fixing mud holes..we have lost alot of trails, dont contribute..put your time into a planned CJA Trail event.
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Fixing fencelines, yes...draining mud holes no! Unless you have someone who has bio-engineered what is being done, then it should not be done...the shut down most of waiporous because of unsettling creekbeds from our mud/dirt contaminating streams...brridges were built...and still no...there is damage to the area done by simple draining out mud holes...that water and mud /silt blah blah has to got somewhere...unless someone with knowledge of what that repair is going to do in the next 2-5 years approves it, then dont start digging it out...for all you know, you, and the 8 newest, and most eager jeepers , are going to dig into something...and with next years spring rainfall, could turn that minor mudhole into a washout..a new 3 foot flowing creek....give water somewhere to go it becomes a creek...and unpassable..
For all i care, you guys just want to head out and start digging, clean up the neighbourhood....well some of us have lived in the neighbourhood a long time...and know you dont just go tearing things down.
Please all newbies reading this...there is more to consider than just fixing mud holes..we have lost alot of trails, dont contribute..put your time into a planned CJA Trail event.
posting this up in the first place might have been a better idea than attaking peoples ideas. i am the one that suggested draining some of the bigger mud holes because it was explaned to me that draining was better than letting the mud hole grow and continue to erode land that way. it would be nice to here from some one that knows the environmental impact on this matter not just peoples opinion.
this does seem to be a "make work project" and if the newbies are thinking that this counts toward membership they might be dissapointed because it is not a official "trail project" with the cja. (could an exect please confirm or deny this for me?)
i totaly agree that we should look into this as an option but maybe it needs to be thought out more.
my suggestion was just that this might be an option for work projects, and unfortunately i cannnot attend because my jeep is leaking oil and i will not take it on the trail when it is leaking.
Pook
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well Aaron.
did someone squirt in your frosted flakes? you are all riled up this morning.
heres what history has taught us.
DO NOTHING, TRAILS GET CLOSED
Do something................... who knows; seems everytime people get the initiative to do something they get shut down by everyone else that has an opinion on the idea, or 'has been there before'
personally, i dont' care about what you've done and whats failed. i'm learning from one KEY lesson. do nothing, trails get closed. keep yelling about this and that regarding ASRD etc. Maybe i'll be joining you one day after I/we've failed because we frackin put a fence incorectly, or a mudhole drained into a nest of endangered frackin birds.
i don't like your solution Aaron. we're all busy enough, its tough to get stuff organized and together. maybe you want to organize a trail project? i vote you in right now if you'll help in those initiatives. i'll help where i can. but DON'T TELL OTHERS TO NOT contribute and to PIGGYBACK on the club. We dont' have time for it.
Mclean is on the chopping block. we all know that. sitting on our computers does not fix problems. groups of people fixing trails is a step in the right direction. if runoff is pooling on a trail, drain it. you dont' need a frackin' bioengineering degree for that.
we are in the process of taking initiave in mclean to make sure this sh!T doesn't happen like it did in Waiparous. I will support anyone that wants to get involved be it draining runoff, or fixing fences.
I do not support anyone waiting for others to 'do the work' etc.
FWIW, we are working on a few more projects there. yes, Aaron, i'll be leading these.
frack you guys, stop web wheeling.
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THANKS Johnny !!!!!!!!
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well said johnny.
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Thanks for posting Johnny and thanks to all for your efforts. I have been on vacation the last two weeks and will chat with Johnny on Saturday so he can start planning stuff.
Back ground info from my experience dealing with ASRD. This is just my opinion from experience and not rules and could be subject to change.
If you are out for the day and stop to fix an existing fence that needs some minor repair is likely cool but a note to ASRD so they know you fixed it is a good thing. Putting up new fence or anything else that involves adding infrastructure (new fence, signs, posts, work on water crossings) requires approval in writing from ASRD. A TFA from the ASRD office needs to be issued giving permission for the work. This is for safety reasons, limits conflicts with other users and allows them to track the work being done. Then they can give credit where credit is due. In the past they have taken issue with new fence going up without permission. They also appreciate our efforts to clean up the area but ask we report abandon vehicles without moving them. This gives them a chance to pass the info on to the RCMP before we move stuff. They often come back and ask for our help after to move it but need to follow procedure.
There is a form that can be filled out to get a TFA for field work. Johnny and I will set something up in the short term.
Draining holes is also a difficult issue. Yes, we often drain water out of individual holes as we run trails and this is a good thing for maintaing the trails so we don't end up with multiple bypasses. A large effort to re-work a section of trails or a problem area requires a TFA. It’s all about the scale of what you are doing.
Cheers,
Blair
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Efforts from anyone are greatly appreciated ... However with any project there is some red tape to go through.
like Blair said If you are out for the day and stop to fix an existing fence that needs some minor repair is likely cool
From my understanding anything more then that and people involved could be at risk of of getting fined for working without the proper permissions. There's also the insurance risks and without it being and actual CJA event there is no coverage. (to you ... or other vehicles/people around when your doing the work)
The last thing i want to do is discourage people .. especially new prospective members to come out and help. The sit back and do nothing " perspective" is not one I look too highly on. As for getting a project like this started ... it sounds simple but sadly it isn't. The best way to getting involved is coming up with ideas like this.. Having discussions and see what's needed from people with experience heading trail projects. Then finally going out and doing the work.
No one's done anything wrong here ... Other then someone with 10 + years shitting on "newbs" for having the ambition you've lost years ago.
Eric CJA prez
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Like i said before...think its great that newer faces are willing to head out and fix what needs to be done...but there is a time and place...forming a posse isnt a good idea...there is alot to be considered...12 people with pickaxes and shovels just having at er' isnt advised..as the 2 previous posts indicate...im willing to help as i have done for many years previous...but at the right time.
I like kitties!
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P.s. i do apologize if i did crap on anyone for having the ambition to get things done...we all started somewhere...and helping to protect the trail system we have is probably the best place to start. Good on yah for the suggestion...maybe an organised weekend with a solid plan in place ? Im in, and i see that there are alot of others willing to put the time in as well.
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I didn't start this post to tread on toes, nor did I start it to kiss any ones arse. The fact is, My jeeps broke, and I haven't even been wheeling behind the wheel (I've been a passenger on a couple club runs) with you guys as I haven't had the time or the cash flow to fix my steering. So even if I was trying to suck up to the exec, I don't even have any runs in :D
The whole reason this post was started in the first place was because I wanted to volunteer my time to do what seems right for everyone to continue to enjoy the extensive trail system that we have so close to home. I appreciate all the input in here and I do feel we are doing this for a good cause. Draining the holes was only a suggestion that came up, and I don't think anyone here would say that we are going out to drain every single one. We did encounter some bomb holes the last time we were out, and it was decided by the members and execs that were on the run at the time to drain it off, so as to not further the damage done by everyone bypassing it. Of course there are good and bad sides to any idea, and through this forum its been a great way to discuss both points of view. I whole heartedly agree with everyone here that we need to be very careful in how we go about doing this for both insurance purposes, and for the good of the club. No one wants to bother the ASRD, we all know how they view our sport...
Now not being a member of course I don't know whats best, for the CJA, and I am not trying to come across that way at all. This is why I started the post. It was to hear what the execs had to say as well as other members about getting a project together. It was a suggestion for something to do over the weekend that would benefit us all, members and non members alike. Whether its fixing the fence, picking up trash along the way, or draining the odd hole that swallowed someone, its all for a good cause in the end. It only seems logical that with the proper people in place on the run if it takes place, we will be looked upon as doing this for a good cause, because none of us want to lose what it is we have. You can bet that as long as my work schedule is willing, for any club sanctioned fixes that do come up, ill still be there, putting in my own time and money to help everyone out. I really do see good in the execs and a lot of the members here, and If i didn't think it was a worthy cause, I would not be a forum member.
I would really like to be at the next Wednesday meeting, but it will be very hard for me to get that night off from work... Perhaps it can be brought up then by the execs that are going to be present what it is we should and should not do out there, if anything so that we have some guidance in doing whats best for the CJA and not ourselves as individuals? If it is decided then that going for a run is a good idea, and fixing the fence is Ok for us to do without offending the ASRD then I am happy to do just that. Perhaps this way we can get some solid guidance on what would be a good plan, and we can have a properly organized run set up to accomplish a common goal.
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Looked at carefully, where is the water and sediments going. Will the new drainage cause future erosion problems?
I put in a call to ASRD today and will update at the next meeting what I hear back from them. I wanted to see what’s been reported to them that needs maintenance and what other groups may be working on.
Thanks to all for help. not every little thing needs a TFA but if we keep info flowing with ASRD then we get credit for whats being done.
Cheers
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well Aaron.
did someone squirt in your frosted flakes? you are all riled up this morning.
heres what history has taught us.
DO NOTHING, TRAILS GET CLOSED
This capitalized comment is the one thing that caught my eye while reading all the posts on this entire thread this afternoon. JohnnyC nothing too personal, BUT WHERE EXACTLY HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS or more? Not including the last 3 or so years when some clubs think working with ASRD is just the cats meow.
Until ASRD and the Alberta government got on a big frenzy to close entire areas down to FOURxFOURS there was hundreds of people putting in hundreds of hours at volunteer days put on by AURS (which now doesn't exist due to none other than ASRD stabbing us in the back and ignoring our efforts.)
I get so steamed when people not knowing the history of trails around here make comments like the one you've made.
Do something................... who knows; seems everytime people get the initiative to do something they get shut down by everyone elsle that has an opinion on the idea, or 'has been there before'
personally, i dont' care about what you've done and whats failed. i'm learning from one KEY lesson. do nothing, trails get closed. keep yelling about this and that regarding ASRD etc. Maybe i'll be joining you one day after I/we've failed because we frackin put a fence incorectly, or a mudhole drained into a nest of endangered frackin birds.
i don't like your solution Aaron. we're all busy enough, its tough to get stuff organized and together. maybe you want to organize a trail project? i vote you in right now if you'll help in those initiatives. i'll help where i can. but DON'T TELL OTHERS TO NOT contribute and to PIGGYBACK on the club. We dont' have time for it.
Mclean is on the chopping block. we all know that. sitting on our computers does not fix problems. groups of people fixing trails is a step in the right direction. if runoff is pooling on a trail, drain it. you dont' need a frackin' bioengineering degree for that.
we are in the process of taking initiave in mclean to make sure this sh!T doesn't happen like it did in Waiparous. I will support anyone that wants to get involved be it draining runoff, or fixing fences.
I do not support anyone waiting for others to 'do the work' etc.
FWIW, we are working on a few more projects there. yes, Aaron, i'll be leading these.
frack you guys, stop web wheeling.
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Here is the deal.
Maclean is now a LEGAL OHV area for 4x4's. All OHV communities have been tasked to make the area sustainable within 2 years (the clock is running).
So far the Bike community has been very busy out there. They will have made every trail given to them sustainable by the end of this month.
The Quad and 4x4 communities have done very little.
Having a pickaxe and shovel with you makes sense. Having a chainsaw to clear any deadfall makes sense. Doing minor things every time you are out there makes sense. If we all wait to have meetings to discuss what we heard from other meetings while we wait to see what the outcomes are from those meetings so we can call to order another meeting .... ::)
Now Gun and Apeman, i get it. You are bitter!!!! i do not blame you.
But get the frick over it, this is not Waiporous nor is it Indian Graves. ;)
Maybe if we all just went and did something in Maclean, we might actually have it around for years to come. IF WE DO NOT, you will LOSE it very soon. >:(
And than they will all go to your SECRET never mention on public site PLACES.
Is that what you want?
Get over yourself and encourage a group of NEW 4x4 enthusiasts to go out and do something. Remember when Clay and Evolution went and did something like bring a disposal bin to the 5km mark, build fences to close off access to riparian areas and drag out 5 burnt vehicles to the Road?
They did it without permission and SRD was upset but guess what????It was done!!!!
OR
Maybe we can just have more meetings...
Gun, i challenge you to ask your American wheelin buddies how they would deal with an area the size of Maclean that has no entrance fees and is LEGAL to go play in but needs to be sustained or they would lose it...
i BET everyone of them would be out there doing something. You hold the power at FWS, do not let your burning bitterness HELP lose yet another area so that the DESTRUCTION makes it way to areas you LOVE. Get your club on board at Maclean. We are LUCKY to have such an area close to Calgary.
i know MANY thousands of Americans that would DIE to have Maclean.
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I guess it would be much easier to "get over it" if I were willing to change coats to a different means of recreation. Not willing to do that just yet.
I'm not on the exec this year so you're disillusioned of any power you think I hold.
I see alot of enthusiasm in the CJA but nothing stirs me more than someone that comments about nothing done and trails will be closed. That's just plain nieve.
It is still all about Indian Graves, Waiparous and still about any other hundreds of areas they have closed.
Tom, would it not be much easier to keep a single track sustainable with only single track traffic allowed, compared to a 4x4 trail when you have quads and bikes also using them. I wonder how many more users would be counted on a 4x4 trail even if its just to cut across or run along to access a single track or quad trail. That's the greatest challenge.
If you want to compare to the US a bit then look at all the trails and areas like Moab and Colorado that don't even allow quads and bikes on them. Probably be easier again to find volunteers to keep a designated 4x4 trail sustainable. Thats why bikes and quads are so willing to work on their trails.
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For those that have missed it, the above post has been further edited. I had a bit more to say after supper. ;)
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Gun, i will never help with 4x4 projects in Waip but i have shown up for a project in Maclean. i also offered my help in 'signing' the trails for 4x4's before Quads sign them for themselves or Govt closes them.
i may not recreate with 4 wheels but i will never stop helping keep things open. i think its a shame we have something so big and so close to Calgary and it will remain OPEN if we sustain it.
At least AURS, sustained it yearly.
i know you are not Prez, but i bet my house that if you rallied FWS to get into Maclean and just do minimal thinks like drainage, clear blow down, etc...
THEY WOULD! :)
PS to others. Every rider i know, rides with a hand saw. We also often go out with chainsaws to maintain our trails.
We don't have meetings to decide, we just do it. We are independents and do not represent anyone when we are out there doing the 'right' thing.
Apeman, i think if anyone on a bike, quad or 4x4 came upon a group of 10 jeepers draining holes, clearing blowdown, etc...they would be PRAISED and the 4x4 community would get a big thumbs up. 8)
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edit...
i just saw your response. Let me answer in a few. i have patients waiting...
ok, i am back.
First i need to make it clear that Blair (01sahara) has to follow the protocol of SRD as a REP of CJA. He has no choice, so red tape cutting is needed for him to officially give a green light.
i do not think this should be a CJA or 4WS endeavor but if you are concerned 4x4 enthusiasts...go do it (minor stuff)
For bigger projects, SRD needs to give the TFA to do it. And maybe FWS and CJA and Independents can organize a group weekend?
Gun, singletrack is easier and harder to maintain. We have to bridge EVERY water crossing no matter how small. Getting material there is a huge effort. As for traffic, every old timer that rode Maclean 3+ years ago will tell you its absolutely BOMBED from so MANY frickin riders. Before, we never had to put the trails on the map. 80% were unknown, now with the map, everyone can find the less traveled trails. It sucks :'(
i ride elsewhere as often as i can.
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I may not respond. I've run out of patience. (JK)
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you have to go back, i just answered... ;D
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Gun, singletrack is easier and harder to maintain. We have to bridge EVERY water crossing no matter how small. Getting material there is a huge effort. As for traffic, every old timer that rode Maclean 3+ years ago will tell you its absolutely BOMBED from so MANY frickin riders. Before, we never had to put the trails on the map. 80% were unknown, now with the map, everyone can find the less traveled trails. It sucks :'(
i ride elsewhere as often as i can.
Single track bridge....what's that...a log with a flat spot cut on top then pinned down to avoid rolling or not pinned to create an obstacle..
The last part of your post is exactly why I have always been and always will be reluctant to provide ASRD with a map of the trails we do. Nothing like setting ourselves up for future closures.
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i agree about sharing trails but the 4x4 ones are on the map and need to be signed. There is also one trail i know should be a 4x4 trail but Quads argued it was not 4x4 doable (BS!). i think if that trail were made 4x4 sustainable (with very little effort i might add) we could reclaim it for us.
Fish East is a lost cause. It will never be sustainable. i rode down it for the first time in 3 years and i could not believe it. i never imagined it would be trail feathered as much as it is in so many places. i see no way of keeping that one alive...
Here is a recent one we did.
We had to carry/ride in the planks, generator, impact gun, screws (lagbolts), 12V car battery, winch and 6 chainsaws.
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y217/Spinalguy/b278edcf.jpg)
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Holy *, what a controversy. This thread sounds like something put out by Corporate Ethics International.
Guys, I offered to organize this "run" as a result of Diamond Dave indicating that some of the fence we put up in our last "official" project had been knocked down. In that project Kevin, Pook, Kyle, Dave, and myself worked on adding some fence and a new culvert near the pond. We also did a bit of drainage on one of the big sink holes that was getting out of hand along that trail. All good and well planned "sanctioned" work however there are some minor repairs that need to be done there as follow-up. Some fence mending (a few staples and strings of barbed wire) and a few holes to be drained where there is either no bypass or the bypass is being carved into tender ground. Combine this little bit of effort with a good trail run and it sounds like a good day to me. I think that's why so many people were enthused.
If you go back and read my original post you can see that no one was planning to do this without the proper sanctioning. Next Wednesday we were to look for the blessing of the members/exec or we would simply do nothing - no big deal to me or anyone else I am sure. We can always wait until any red tape is dealt with and until the execs have time to focus on it. Further we asked for someone who had led before to take it on as an official run so we could cover the trails and have a great day to boot. If we don't get that, again nothing "official".
BTW, thanks to the execs who have been busy almost every weekend doing projects, events, leading member and open runs, organizing camping, show and shines and a tonne of other things all year long. Honestly they must seem overwhelmed with everything they are already doing and I have no idea how they can commit the time to do any more. They must have great spouses to get away with it. When I became a member I took that it meant throwing in a hand and doing something. I figured that organizing this would count and despite the negative comments about people trying to earn "brownie points" - I expect good people will see it for what it is. Everyone who offered their time should be commended.
Anyway, Blair if you can do what you can with the ASRD - I would appreciate it. We don't need much except some barbed wire and staples. I can go pick it up anytime or we can get our own if it is easier. The 24th and 25th is a weekend where there is nothing else planned on the agenda for the club and I think it would be a good time to follow-up on this work - hence the short time-line.
This is not major work in any way and, in fact, it is a real good excuse to get out that weekend.
Do we have anyone that will step up to lead a run that weekend? If not then it is a mute point and we can put this on the agenda for future work to do.
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Thia is awesome , some new blood getting involved in the fourwheeling scene and doing everything the right way trying to get things done
When some one tries to break into my house at three in the morning I do not ask my wife for permission. I go into action mode.
The same thing can be said here , Inform the power to be on what you are planning to do collectively as a group or as individuals and change plans slightly to satisfy the political wind at the moment and just do it. No fan fair required . We are men here .
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Wow... I never realized this was going to be such a hot topic :o
I have read, and re-read every post in here and I have to say that I am very grateful for everyones input. I would still love to see a run happen on the weekend, and will pitch in however I can, but honestly I feel more strongly now towards not draining the sinkholes... There is too much risk for greater environmental impact, as I have learned in a lot of reading today. I will still be there if there is a run to help mend the fence, and I will still commit to bringing my staples and hammer, and the back of my XJ would be fine to haul barbed wire in, but I don't feel comfortable with draining the sinkholes only to find that we have made a negative impact over a positive one. There was a very valid point made, that none of us (that I know of or have stepped up and said they) are bio-engineers, and that is really a project that should be thought out with more discussion, involving more than just us as forum members. We definitely have commitment in people here to help out, and later down the road, when the time is right, and the infrastructure is put in place, to see that this is done correctly, it will be a very good project indeed. So, sinkholes aside, I think this could be a very productive day with even just patching up the fence where it needs. This way we can all still band together as a group to do what will help everyone out, and not tread on any ones toes. I want to apologize to anyone I may have offended, and I hope we still can come up with a plan for that Sunday. I am a true believer in the ethics set out by the club, and in treading lightly, and in thinking about this today, by draining those holes without the proper research being done beforehand to ensure that we aren't affecting another ecosystem downstream of that drain, we are not treading lightly at all. It potentially could cause more damage to the trail system if that hole ever re flooded, and eroded the cut away. Then we are right back where none of us want to be!
I would like to comment on Rich99's post,
If you go back and read my original post you can see that no one was planning to do this without the proper sanctioning. Next Wednesday we were to look for the blessing of the members/exec or we would simply do nothing - no big deal to me or anyone else I am sure. We can always wait until any red tape is dealt with and until the execs have time to focus on it.
as this is exactly what we had collectively talked about as members, and fellow jeep enthusiasts at the last informal Sunday meet and greet. I don't think any of us ever imagined this post would end up to be as long as it is! Rich is exactly right in what he said, and I sure didn't get the impression either that any of us wanted to go with out the good word from the actual members and exec. If its decided that this is not a good weekend for a project of any sort, then I am happy to volunteer for the next one.
I guess to sum up what Ive said, I would love to be there 100%, but if we are going to head out with the intention of draining any holes, then I'm sorry, but I will be holding off on helping with that until the proper planning has been done. The staples, I will still commit to if needed. Hope to see most of you tomorrow at the show and shine!
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I apoligise if i ruffled any feathers, and i should have been more constructive in my responses..negativity doesnt benefit the situation. Its great that the trail issues are being addressed and new faces are willing to put in the time and creativity to make the trails better, for everyone. Should more project come up in the future,i will be there, with more of an open minded and optimistic attitude. Should the CJA organizers need help with planning,etc, let me know...i have the time, and the ambition lol.
And i do like kitties ;)
Thanks Gun, Johnny and Eric...
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gunther.
i've never met you, and your reputation precedes you; therefore, i've no negative comments to make.
15 years ago, i was in grade school. so no, i wasn't on the scene...........
i am now. i grew up in IG; wheelin at 16: i can't quit it. i've tried.
i will do what i can to keep things open in our province........ i will learn as i go. any help/info i can gather is greatly appreciated.
remember, at one point, you were in my position: did you learn from those with experience or argue? i'd rather learn.
we have a strong committment of people WILLING to make (or at least help) bring about change to ensure the Waiparous/IG atrocities do not happen in mclean.
so help us out............................... i understand the bitterness. i saw our buddy Morton fly overhead; actually, i was atop a trail and he was almost eye level with my jeep. and what happened next, well, ask anyone who knows me, it boils my blood.
in short: Mclean does not need to suffer the same fate. either help us 'youngings' or back off...............
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JohnnyC, help can come in so many different ways.
I have always said that I would be right back into projects if ASRD would give back a minimum of 5 trails to start with simply for a show of good faith towards the 4x4 community. I told each and everyone of higher standing ASRD personal in the Calgary area to their face what my position was on that and in the five (now more) years of the implementaion of Ghost we have seen nothing added anywhere in Alberta to show they may be willing to go somewhere with building a sustainable trail system or for that matter a more trusted relationship between us as a 4x4 community and them.
Unfortunately , as ugly as it may be on my part right now the only help I can offer the young enthusiastic up coming wheelers is to remind them to be very leary of the relationship they may think they have with ASRD. For many years prior to all this coming down we thought we had a good work relationship as well, but it still led to them singling us out for public image purposes. Unfortunately they removed the only means of transportation that can accomadate an entire family for a days worth of experience.
There is certain things on forum boards that get me stirred up, and when I read them I feel the need to respond. Sometimes the help comes from the trail issues constantly being brought up so the young upcoming wheelers know what may be in store for them down the road and what has been done in the past to no avail. ASRD continues to take areas away, they have never yet added anything to our interests and likely never will. So as you put it....help or back off...well in that ugly way, I think I'm helping, as sarcastic as I may come across sometimes.
ASRD...show us some good faith for a change.
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A couple of points before I leave this topic alone.
A city area of more than a million people - that equates to a pretty big 4x4 community. Many of them are not club members who carve up the trails and do exactly what they want. As Spinal Guy so correctly put it - if the leaders in that community (the clubs) don't take the initiative on a regular basis (and I know CJA does as much as it can) then its not a matter of "if they will close" the trails, the questions is "when will they close them". Hard nosed attitudes and grudges are of no help and are of little value. ASRD has a mandate and regardless of what we think and what we do, they will take the path of least resistance and do exactly what their "bioengineers", their forestry specialists, and the public tell them too. It doesn't matter what your working relationship is like with them - it didn't in the past and it doesn't today either. The only thing that the 4x community can do is to have clear demonstrable evidence of working hard to make the trails sustainable. I am not saying this will work and I actually doubt it will but for sure doing nothing is a death nail for any trail system within two hours of the big city.
BTW, those noobs that everyone is talking about are grown men, many with super experience and a long history of wheeling in Alberta. Good people to have as members I am sure.
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fair enough Gunther. lord knows i cannot blame you. and i'll keep that in the back of my mind in any dealings with them..........
maybe, gov't can be held accountable to their word one of these days.......... i would hope so.
until then, just gonna have to do what we can to keep trail systems open. whatever little bits those are!
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Unfortunately now with some unexpected expenses coming up it doesnt look like Ill be able to make the run on sunday. Sorry guys!! If there is still a run going, i would be happy to drop off the staples somewhere for someone to use, but at this time, I am sorry but I will have to duck out.
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Simon, not to worry - it doesn't look very promising as a run. Perhaps I will go out on my own to do those fixes.