Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: BlackAura on July 12, 2010, 02:12:58 PM
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So....when I got the mechanical inspection done on my Jeep, they told me the diff fluid was dirty....also the front diff has a little fluid seeping through the seal.
The last time I had to change differential fluid was on my car, and it was simple...there was a fill plug, and a drain plug. Only real "rule" to follow was to break open the fill plug first (otherwise you've drained all your fluid, and then notice the fill plug is seized...not good).
Unfortunately I see on the Jeep that I'm going to have to crack open the diff cover to drain it, as far as I understand. Also I've read / heard that anytime you go through mud, you should be changing your diff fluid, so since I'm planning on offroading most summers, that could end up being quite a few fluid changes.
So... are there any companies out there that make armoured diff covers that also include a drain plug? Looking at the NorthRidge4x4 site, I can't see any.
...and with a little more searching I found this thread on JeepForums.com (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f19/d30-d44-arb-diff-cover-fluid-change-question-560015/#post5239383).
Anyone have any thoughts on the Ruff Riders products? has anyone used, or at least heard of them before? I'm impressed at the price.... $115 for a D44 diff cover with countersunk plugs and a drain plug (http://www.ruffstuffspecialties.com/catalog/dana-44-38-one-piece-differential-cover-p-86.html) (+ shipping).
....
...and in my quest to find more information, it turns out there might actually be a drain plug on each of my diffs, making this all moot.
[http://www.wanderingtrail.com/Mods/JKmods/Rockcrusher_cover/rockcrusher.htm]Installing Dana 44 Rock Crusher Diff Covers[/url] - shows a drain plug on the side of the 44's in their pictures.
So to change my questions slightly...should I pull the covers and replace the seals (since my front diff is seeping a little).
Also, is the seal an actual paper/plastic/whatever gasket, and where's the best place to buy a new gasket (pricewise), or is it only sealed with liquid gasket?
Is it worth getting something like this: LubeLocker D44 (http://northridge4x4.ca/proddetail.php?prod=LL-D44)?
Thanks!
p.s. sorry for the randomness of my thoughts, I decided to do more research on my own before juts asking for people's help :p
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ARB makes the diff covers you want. kinda easy to find, they are usually on the front page of most parts websites. (http://www.northridge4x4.ca/)
use black rtv gasket maker (http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers/auto_permatex_ultra_black_maximum_oil_resistance_rtv_silicone_gasket_maker.htm)
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i use the lube lockers and love them, they work great! replacing your diff oil everythime you go into mud might be a bit exesive, i try to replace about twice a year.
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i use the lube lockers and love them, they work great! replacing your diff oil everythime you go into mud might be a bit exesive, i try to replace about twice a year.
If you are going through A LOT of mud and water you need to check your diff fluid after every trip and change accordingly.
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ARB makes the diff covers you want. kinda easy to find, they are usually on the front page of most parts websites. (http://www.northridge4x4.ca/)
They even colour matched my Jeep....it's like they were meant for me :D
I didn't notice the drain plug the first time I checked...wasn't as noticeable on the picture on the product page (http://www.northridge4x4.ca/proddetail.php?prod=ARB-750003)....I was also expecting a 1/2" square socket plug as per my diff on my car. Thanks Fiend!
Unfortunately they're twice as pricey as the Ruff Stuff covers, but I'm guessing they are worth it. Might have to do an order through Northridge soon...probably can't get them before the show and shine though. :(
i use the lube lockers and love them, they work great! replacing your diff oil everythime you go into mud might be a bit exesive, i try to replace about twice a year.
Excellent, that's good to hear! I'm still not sure what direction to take (lets be honest, the liquid gasket that Al posted is a lot cheaper), but I'm glad to hear they work.
Thanks again guys, also good to know to visually inspect the fluid after every run, and only change as is necessary.
p.s., I'm sure I could find it searching, but what oil do you recommend? Assuming that I'll be changing it somewhat regularly, I don't see any reason to use synthetic fluids, so do you guys just buy the cheapest dino oil that's the appropriate weight? Thanks!
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Unfortunately they're twice as pricey as the Ruff Stuff covers, but I'm guessing they are worth it. Might have to do an order through Northridge soon...probably can't get them before the show and shine though. :(
Wow....just noticed that Northridge4x4.com (in Washington) has a combo package, Front and Rear ARB covers, and Front and Rear Lube Lockers for $336 USD. The Canadian website doesn't have a combo package like that, but I'll call Stan tomorrow to see what he can do (everyone on this site has recommended calling him, as he can usually get a little better pricing than what the website says due to the always-shifting dollar).
If for some reason he can't, well, I've planned a road trip down there at the end of August to visit some friends in Seattle, so I'll just order them shipped to my friends....but I do like to support the local businesses and I'm sure we'll be able to work something out.
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As far as fluid goes, check your owner's manual. If you anticipate changing it often (mud/water), then run dino oil for sure. Synthetic is not cheap.
I got the Riddler diff cover bundle from Northridge just recently. 2 X Riddler D44 covers and 2 LubeLocker D44 gaskets for $250.
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All rubi 44's have a drain plug on the bottom, facing sideways.
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Why are you wasting $336USD on diff covers with a drain plug? If you are dropping the fluid, you should be under there inspecting for damage...and if you are gonna ding the factory cover, you arent gonna like a minute scratch on your pretty ARB cover. Seriously...arent there better upgrades you can spend the money on?
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Eep, sorry, super busy so I didn't get a chance to reply yesterday.
All rubi 44's have a drain plug on the bottom, facing sideways.
Thanks Bnine! Looking at a guide that explained how to change your diff covers, they mentioned the D44's have drain plugs to the side, so I went and checked mine, sure enough, there they were. This is going to be super easy, compared to the car....I love having room to work underneath the vehicle :D
So because of that, like Apeman said, I kind of decided that there really is no reason, at least right now, for me to drop the money on the covers :P
Just like you said, there are more important things to get.
In case anyone is wondering, I talked to Stan yesterday, he said the ARB covers are backordered, and he has no idea when they'll be in, but he can do a package deal like their US site has. He also has the Riddler diff covers, like W Squared mentioned, and can do a package deal on them too.
So, for me at least, in order to be "cost effective", I plan on picking up a bucket of cheap dino gear oil (hopefully good for a few changes), a gear oil hand pump, and some black rtv gasket maker on my way home today.
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the covers aren't for convenience, the covers are because when you go BBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG on a rock ledge, you aren't F*&CKED on the trail. the nice magnetic dipstick and drain plug on the ARB are an added bonus that makes them really attractive. and like anything, they rust so no one should care about a few scratches.
I have $3000 + worth of parts to protect in my diffs so $400 aint a lot in armor.
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+1. Diff covers aren't to look kewl....the idea with an upgraded diff cover is to keep your diff fluid on the inside of the diff. The stock diff covers aren't exactly beefy, and they're susceptible to "peeling". A good aftermarket diff cover will stand up to a lot more in the way of cuddling with rocks.
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I also totally agree with your statements guys, but where do you think this should be on the priority list? I'm fairly new to this, and so far my mod's are pretty much a CB and a roof rack, both of which came with the Jeep.
I'm currently in the midst of making a list of everything I'd love to have, along with some "affordable compromises". I.e. the ARB covers vs the Riddler covers. Riddlers definitely fall into the "more affordable" list.
I also need to budget to see how much I can actually afford to put towards this monthly...also trying to save for my own place :P
My list, which I'm sure is missing stuff, looks something like this:
- Swaybar Discos or Currie Anti-Rock
- Metal Fenders (pretty sure I'll be getting the flat bushwackers like Kevin has)
- Nerf Bars / Rock Sliders (pretty sure I'll be contacting Brink for a set of his)
- Diff Covers
- Front Bumper
- Rear Bumper / Tire Carrier
- Winch / Winch Plate
- Recovery Equipment (get them to throw some stuff in when I do a big order, hopefully)
- Hi-lift Jack
- Secure storage in the back (ideally by the end of August, since I plan on road tripping....soft top / topless would be super nice for some of the parks I'm planning on driving through)
- Tools / misc parts, once I have an idea as to what I'll need, to put in the storage area.
- Thinking of doing one of the welding courses in the fall at SAIT so I can mess around fabricating my own stuff.
Not to mention bigger tires, body lift, suspension lift, motor lift, tummy tuck, cv driveshafts. :P
I mean, from doing the 101, I know I won't be wheeling on my own. In fact, I'm pretty much sticking to open runs, or organized ones that have people I know and a CJA exec or two. I think my stock bumpers should be fine for a while, also I shouldn't need to do a lift right away. The 31" tires on the Rubicon should be okay around McLean, and I'm hoping they'll last at least until spring. In fact, I probably won't look at lifts until the tires are done and I'm debating what I want to get for new tires.
Homemade swaybar discos are probably next on my list, because they're so easy and cheap to make. After that, to be honest, I'm not sure where I plan on going with my build. I know on the 101 I didn't do the crack because after watching Kevin I figured for sure I'd destroy my fenders...so I'll look into getting those bushwackers. Plus some "side steps" would be nice, and Brink's rock sliders have nerf bars and look super nice.
So yeah, I still need to organize the list, probably by cost, things that go together, what I hear from you guys, what I read about online, and what gets damaged.
If my front diff seepage can be fixed by scraping away the old gasket and putting some new rtv on it and resealing it, then I figure it's a fairly cost effective solution for now.
Also I should probably mention that the Jeep is my daily driver in the winter, so I'm only planning on offroading it / doing large mod projects on it when I have other vehicles to drive in the spring/summer (but I can still save up, and buy parts, in the winter).
...cuddling with rocks.
so comfy...
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All rubi 44's have a drain plug on the bottom, facing sideways.
i second that .. on a rubi /DANA 44 front and rear there are drain plugs on the bottom right nest to the pinion
pull those drain the fluid . replace plug and fill untill it starts to come out of the fill hole
simple easy ..
if your gaskit is leaking then pull cover after draining fluid clean both surfaces and apply high heat sealant . replace cover let sit for a few m inutes . then fill with fluid
very easy
and get used to change fluid at least 2 - 3 times ayear if you plan on wheeling alot
might be a good idea to go with a thicker fluid as well dont bother with
synthetic to much money and youll be still replacing it often
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priorities
- Swaybar Discos or Currie Anti-Rock - luxury, easy to get out and unbolt for a few years like most people
- Metal Fenders (pretty sure I'll be getting the flat bushwackers like Kevin has) - luxury
- Nerf Bars / Rock Sliders (pretty sure I'll be contacting Brink for a set of his) - you have some on your rubi, but better ones down the line is a good idea
- Diff Covers - important
- Front Bumper - important for winch
- Rear Bumper / Tire Carrier - luxury unless you go above 33, otherwise can make stock carrier work
- Winch / Winch Plate - important
- Recovery Equipment (get them to throw some stuff in when I do a big order, hopefully) - $75 at princess auto for the basics (prob only things you would need)
- Hi-lift Jack - bottle jack or screw jack are better if you are stock height
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priorities
- Swaybar Discos or Currie Anti-Rock - luxury, easy to get out and unbolt for a few years like most people
- Metal Fenders (pretty sure I'll be getting the flat bushwackers like Kevin has) - luxury
- Nerf Bars / Rock Sliders (pretty sure I'll be contacting Brink for a set of his) - you have some on your rubi, but better ones down the line is a good idea
- Diff Covers - important
- Front Bumper - important for winch
- Rear Bumper / Tire Carrier - luxury unless you go above 33, otherwise can make stock carrier work
- Winch / Winch Plate - important
- Recovery Equipment (get them to throw some stuff in when I do a big order, hopefully) - $75 at princess auto for the basics (prob only things you would need)
- Hi-lift Jack - bottle jack or screw jack are better if you are stock height
Awesome, thanks Fiend, that helps a lot. Makes me rethink quite a few things. Guess I'll have to go pick up a hex bolt for the swaybar links. Torx are such a pain.
if your gaskit is leaking then pull cover after draining fluid clean both surfaces and apply high heat sealant . replace cover let sit for a few minutes . then fill with fluid
That's the plan! Except....I hate working with liquid gasket, hence why I was looking at the Lube Lockers :p
Hopefully it works the first time.
very easy
and get used to change fluid at least 2 - 3 times ayear if you plan on wheeling alot
might be a good idea to go with a thicker fluid as well dont bother with
synthetic to much money and youll be still replacing it often
Yeah, I was thinking of just picking up a bucket (20 litres) of the Super Tech 80W-90 gear oil from Walmart. $38, and I figure I'll be changing it out frequently enough that I won't have to worry about using synthetic. Will I have any problems with this stuff?
They also had Castrol Hypoy C 80W-90 on sale, but it said it "was good for normal or limited slip differentials", making me think that it has the additive which apparently isn't good for lockers, so I'm not sure if it's a good choice.
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Seriously? Open glove box...pull out book labelled "Rubicon Owners MANUAL"...read MANUAL...scratch head & Re-read MANUAL..(75-140 good for use in limited slip diffs)..purchase said oil..
Problem solved...
I dont mean to drag out a 2 page post on a half hour gear oil chnge...but if this task is somewhat difficult for you, how are the listed modifications going to take place?
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Haha, the task itself is super easy....the topic kinda got sidetracked on to other things, like whether or not it's worth upgrading the covers, and if it should be a priority over other upgrades.
But I was reading (and lets be honest, I over-research / analyze things, but that's just who I am) that the limited slip additive can cause damage to the locking differentials (because they don't use a clutch and don't need the additive), so I just wanted to find out if that's true. Searching again, I can't find the thread (it was on Jeepforum.com) anymore, so maybe it's not actually a problem.
I'll pick up the cheap stuff tonight or tomorrow to do the diffs on Friday.
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ease up on the guy .. its his first fluid change on his baby
we all been there weve all had questions . and thats why we have these forums . to get answers even if there easy to answer to the most of us
i still ask questions about stuff . its life im not a mechanic . i can do lost of stuff but still nice to have other peoples advice
good luck bud and dont be shy to ASK more questions
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Trust me i am going easy, and trust me, others on the site are as well...i dont mind being blunt about it...some of use didnt buy cookie cutter wheelers with everything a builder would want, without a clue as to what its for or how to use it...if youot a Rubi, great, good for you...but i came with a manual, just like any one of my jeeps did. Figure out what you have,what it does and how to maintain it..diff covers are the least of your worries..try lifting the damn thing before you waste $300..want to not knock the diffs on so-called "Rocks" ?? Lift the thing and run 33's or 35's..the "rocks will eat a stock cover just like they will eat a cast ARB cover..You let me know what rock crawling monster trails you are running in mclean or waip, that are eating stock covers, and i will give you a new D44 diff guard...and some kleenex...cuz if you are worried about diff covers, wow ...god forbit you catch a treebranch on your paint or worse, get a ding on your rim.. :'(
That would ruin the show and shine for everyone! ::)
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As Apemen said check your manual because I think rubi require synthetic 75w140 due to the lockers
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Sorry Scott..im just getting tired of people not spending time under thier jeeps..stop by for pop sometime before "plowing season" ...
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...but it came with a manual, just like any one of my jeeps did. Figure out what you have,what it does and how to maintain it...
Okay, while my Jeep is a 2003, the manual that came with it is for a 2004, which really should be the same (no major differences between the years). They refer to the Locking Axles in the Rubicon as Tru-Lok. They refer to the limited slip differential as Trac-Lok. The manual isn't specifically for the Rubicon, but since they reference the lockers, I'm hoping it applies.
Under Recommended Fluids - Axle Differential (front-rear) it says:
Mopar Hypoid Gear Lubricant (SAE 80W-90) (API GL5) or equivalent. For trailer towing, use a SAE 75W-140 Synthetic Gear Lubricant. Models equipped with Trac-Lok require an additive.
So that's fine and dandy, I can go out and buy any API GL5 certified 80W-90 gear oil, but then I was reading that:
- the limited slip additive for Trak-Lok can actually damage the lockers (Tru-Lok) in a Rubicon (no citation, can't find the link), and I know some gear oils come with it pre-mixed (my car has front and rear limited slip differentials and the gear oil I'm using in it comes with the additives premixed)
- some people say the additive won't hurt anything, but don't specifically say this for Rubicons, so they could be talking about open D35s or the optional open D44s on some TJs.
- as well as towing, other "heavy use" situations should use the 75W-140 synthetic oil, i.e. offroading
- Stu Olson's Jeep Site (http://www.stu-offroad.com/misc/maint.htm) says specifically to use 75W-140 for the Rubicons, like BlackYJ said.
So much information out there, and while some of it overlaps, some of it conflicts.
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Just found another specific post:
2jhanna posted this on Jeepforum.com (http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/anyone-use-80w-90-diffs-dana-30-dana-35-a-1001050/#post9179445):
Axles:
Dana 30 - 1.25 quarts 80W-90
Dana 35 - 1.75 quarts 80W-90 or 75W-140 *
Dana 44 - 2 quarts 80W-90 or 75W-140 *
Rubicon Dana 44 (FRONT) - 1.375 quarts 75W-140 synthetic
Rubicon Dana 44 (REAR) - 2 quarts 75W-140 synthetic **
*4 oz of friction modifier is required with Trac-Lok limited slip differential.
**Friction modifier is NOT required with Tru-Lok locker/limited slip differential (factory Rubicon locker).
So I'm just going to pony up the cash and get the synthetic stuff. My original thought (along with a lot of the posts I've read) was $40 for a 5 gallon bucket of 80W-90, which should do ~20 changes, so 10 complete front/rear changes.
Vs. $60 for 4 bottles of Redline Synthentic 75W140, which will do 1 complete change of the front and rear diffs. But, better safe than sorry.
Edit:
As Apemen said check your manual because I think rubi require synthetic 75w140 due to the lockers
Thanks for the advice BlackYJ, I probably wouldn't have researched this much further had you not made this specific comment.
....if my boss saw how much I posted on CJA, he'd probably wonder how I get any work done. :P
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Well, that was fun....I think I figured out why my front diff was leaking.
Didn't snap a "before" picture of the cover, but here's the diff itself:
(http://www.blackaura.ca/~kbrown/imgbucket/IMG_20100718_172010.jpg)
The cover was really rusty at the bottom there as well. Thankfully most of the rust in the picture was on the old RTV liquid gasket, so the main case wasn't too bad.
After some cleanup:
(http://www.blackaura.ca/~kbrown/imgbucket/IMG_20100718_174727.jpg)
The cover, after cleanup, you can still see some pitted areas where there was rust:
(http://www.blackaura.ca/~kbrown/imgbucket/IMG_20100718_171519.jpg)
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are you planning on looking at cleaning up much of the other rust shown in the pictures? (your diff definitely looks better now) It's a task I've been thinking of personally for the past few weeks actually, but with a new born time keeps slipping away from me :P
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are you planning on looking at cleaning up much of the other rust shown in the pictures? (your diff definitely looks better now) It's a task I've been thinking of personally for the past few weeks actually, but with a new born time keeps slipping away from me :P
As far as the external rust goes, no, I haven't really planned to remove much of it. It's probably a good idea, but I have a feeling it'll just end up coming back again.....not sure if anyone else has attempted this either. If anyone has, can you chime in?
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i just buy a couple cans of rust paint and paint every year b4 the show n shine
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i just buy a couple cans of rust paint and paint every year b4 the show n shine
i second that ..
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i just buy a couple cans of rust paint and paint every year b4 the show n shine
those are along the lines I was thinking, just didn't get around to it this year, I'd like to do it once a year though to keep everything under control :P
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Hmmmm, that does sound like a good idea, I might look into it when I have a free weekend.
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all its ganna do is make it look new .
your diff is 2 thick of steel to rust in our life time so its ganna hide the little bit of surface rust thats it
but it does look pretty
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Holy smokes, stop over thinking bud.
I will lay it out for you as simple as possible.
80-90 is fine dfor your axles.
Your rear axle uses a worm gear limited slip. The additive won't hurt the lsd, but it can reduce how effective it is.
Almost all synthetic oils meet additive specs. Mopar would not recommend synthetic if additive grade fluid was detrimental to the rear tru-lok.
With wheeling, and frequent modifications it is not worth the money to run synthetic.
If you want more protection then 80-90 but don't want the additive properties, or cost of synthetic you can run 85-140 non synthetic from Greggs distributers. At 6 bucks a litre, its an affordable option.
It comes in 20 litre pails. If you don't want that much volume, bring a 4L jug over and I will sell you some, as I keep it in bulk.
As for my background, I've rebuilt, repaired, and regeared well into 100 rubicon differentials.
This is as much as you will ever need to know regarding your rubi diffs and the fluid.
Hth
Now let this poor thread die already ;)
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Haha, fair enough. Next time I guess I'll just stick with the 80W-90. Maybe when Stan gets those ARB diff covers in stock again, and I pick some up and go to install them.
I've heard good things about you, so I trust your judgment, and if I ever need work done I'll be sure to contact you! Thanks for the help / advice, but I can't promise I'll kill the thread...I was thinking, when I get a chance in August (or September? so busy these days...) and can clean up the diff...and everything around the front end there, and can repaint, I'll revive this thread and post the pictures :D
...can't resist ;)
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If you've got your heart set on getting a new cover, I picked up a set (D44 and an 8.8) of covers from Solid Axle Insdustries. They're beefy, and should stand up to a ton of abuse. The prices are really good on their website right now too.... http://www.solidaxle.com/ProductCart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=7 (http://www.solidaxle.com/ProductCart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=7)
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That is a pretty good price for the Solid cover. Stan at Northridge is also running an (unadvertised) special right now -2 Riddler D44 covers and two lubelocker D44 gaskets for $250 shipped.