Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Jrama on October 11, 2011, 06:07:35 PM
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My stock arms are shot, bushings falling out of twisted stamped metal holding on to twisted control arm mounts at the axle. I am looking at getting something bigger and better.
What type of joints/bushings are people running and seeing success ? Between the winter and the mud I know that bushings of all kinds have a tough life out here.
I'm also seriously considering a snorkel. after that last run and a "not deep" mud hole, I found mud solidly lining the inside of the air box and a nice dirty spray leading righting in to the manifold. ARB snorkel seems good enough any other good ideas? There are a few good write ups out there any personal experiences?
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Snorkels are just plain silly on gas engines if you dont take the time to address everything else... especially the ignition system... diesel... give er! If your concern is the mud and dirt your fan kicked up... causing it enter your airbox... Id save the money spent on that snazzy accessorie snorkel and spend it on something more useful. Convert to electric fan with an override switch so you can turn it off if you cross deep enough to hit the blades and save the trouble of replacing a rad, fan, or cleaning your engine. Things a snorkel wont do for you. Elecric fan conversion can be done dirt cheap... pnp cheap.
As for CAs... make sure those new joints have some movement or your worse off then you think you are now with the stock arms. Personally... I like stock arms, cheap, flexy, easy to find. I got a stock pile of bushings and arms from people doing lifts that include cheap arms and cheap bushings from all in one kits.... yup... Ill keep my stockers till I can drop the coin on Curries with JJs or similiar.
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Interesting, I had already thought about the other potential weak points, but none seem to be as pressing as the air intake. While the fan, seals, breather valves on various components may be weak points. Usually they don't spell immediate death to your motor like sucking water directly in to the intake does. Fan clutches wear out, electrical stuff may stall the motor, water through seals takes a little time. I just finished changing my diff fluids today, front diff looked more like Mclean mud than oil.....Its not submersing the motor that deep that worries me, its having that high water mark and splashing effect that can cause damage. However you have a very good point, I'll definitely think about it.
As for the arms, Johnny joint Currie arms are the best, but very expensive. I was considering the new Rough country flex joint arms as well, I have no idea how they will actually hold up in the long term though and they do not have a flex joint at both ends. Plus I was even wondering If I want an adjustable short arm for the lowers? I am going no higher than 4" of suspension lift and even up to 6" companies keep the same fixed length.
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I think of it like this. The electric fan is really a no brainer for deep water crossings. The fan blades act like a propeller as soon as they hit water. Itll twist, and push, and pull itself right into the rad all the while... kicking up a shitestorm of antifreeze, diesel, mud, dirt, rocks and whatever else was living in that little mud hole before you attacked it. Having the ability to turn that fan off for the 20 seconds it took to cross that pit of despair is worth the fans weight in gold compared to a snorkel for the average user aka. no plans to submerge the engine up to said intake. Even if you ever do decide to swim that deep, you'll still want an electric fan. So.... I'd do the fan first, get used to using that override switch mounted on your dash aaand if the urge is still there.... then start looking at all the purdy lookin snorkels.
CAs. I've been around the block a few times, Jeepin isn't immune to the trend of packaging shiny useless objects with low price tags to make a sale. CAs packaged with budget lifts are "usually" those shiny useless objects. And boy do they work... for the quarterly projections of course. "why would I spend 2k on full Curries with JJs when I can get a full lift for a grand including flexy bendy parts?" They both are a rip... but one works well with less headaches, the other doesn't work much better then stock did. Are you shopping for the round eye in your avatar?
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If you wheel in a way that gets mud in your airbox, then a snorkel might not be a bad investment. It does sorta shout "poser" but if you've already see nthat you've come close to hydrolocking your engine because of how you wheel and you don't want to adjust how you approach mud....knock yourself out.
As far as control arms, either buy quality adjustables, or just buy a set of takeoffs - that's a cheap was to stick a stock set back in there. Anything in between, you're probably wasting you time and money. As far as quality adjustables go - Johnny Joints. On JK parts, I know that Clayont, Currie, and ORE run them. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head builds 'em into control arms for TJ's.
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Comon j bles nothing stopped you spending an incredible amount of money on the heep before... do it once. do it right. Id say JJ are pretty sweet. The fan thing is a cool idea, but as soon as you go into the much it will get on your fan. turn fan on again. mud everywhere, although less pronounced it will still build up over the day. I think you should do both. the fan choke idea and snorkel, hell we can build a snorkel out of PVC pipe and a creative sawsall swipe. Its not hard to make. at all. And will save you a considerable amount.
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Do you carry a spare air filter at all? I use the cheapo paper ones and always have an extra. I get mud and crap in the airbox all the time. If Im really worried about Ill pull the top and check if the filters wet. If shes soaked Ill change it but it rarely happens. They designed that box pretty well and itd be pretty hard to suck water up and over the airbox let alone mud. That thing will probably hold a couple of liters before it would block the intake and your engine would start sucking it back. A couple drops of water and some mud in the box just means the whole setup is doing its job. Trap the big stuff and filter out the small stuff.
Since Im on this electric fan kick, one last plug for it. No fan spinning equals less crap in the airbox... No two ways about it. If you commit to doing it... Ill commit to wiring it up for ya... Deal?
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I do agree Electric fan and Snorkel go hand in hand. I don't go seeking deep water or mud situations, occasionally something is deeper than you or your "guide" expect. So the snorkel is like cheap insurance. I was out a couple weekends ago, and a friend of mine in a TJ (like me), he sucked water into the motor, no reckless splashing or anything in a mud pit that was to the bottom of the headlights. The motor didn't stall but the oil certainly had water in it and that ticking it was making didn't sound healthy. An oil change ended up fixing the problem entirely, but sure enough the filter was wet and water got past. The next time I'm out I find myself in nearly the exact same situation...I should have taken a picture of my air box, it was thick with mud, I removed it from the jeep and pressure sprayed it to clean it.
I am running an Amsoil re-usable filter, like a K&N except no gauze and oil, and much better filtration and about the same flow. Your supposed to clean it with a vacuum or compressor, I ended up using the kitchen sink and water to remove the caked mud on it, and thick dirt just about everywhere else.
Reviewing the information on the X joints leads me to the conclusion that they will be a pita, especially how often I wheel the Jeep. I'm leaning toward the JJ, I spend enough time maintaining and fixing things on the heep to be worrying about changing bushings in the arms. I wonder if there is anyone around here who could make a custom arms for a couple bucks cheaper? I might just get a replacement set of stock arms for now if they come up easily, Spending the money now or later really doesn't matter.
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Could look at Rockmens complete package:
http://www.rokmen.com/suspension/control-arms/rokmen-1/rokmen-jeep-tj-lj-adjustable-control-arm-package.html
Its the way Im gonna go after the tummy tuck and fuel cell are done next year, the small stretch will warrant the need at that point. Ive talked to a couple machine shops about getting the steel work done. Thats the cheap part, by the time you price out all the joints, jam nuts, bungs etc. The Rokmen price looked better and better.
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i didn't read all the replies jamal.... lots o' talkin, me to lazy.
but i did see you ask about rough country 'xflex' joints......... i just put their 4" on my ZJ. for the price its.......... ok. i plan on upgrading the joints in my xflex with JJs when they wear out........ and i think they will............. very soon............. the rubber compound on the joints is just that; rubber. i'm sure they will start clunking after a few runs........
long and short is i would run JJs. if you are like me, and cheap, the rough country stuff is ok short term, and upgrade later. i cannot confirm the JJs are direct bolt ins for the Rough country stuff though; i will cross that bridge when i get to it! but my plan is to run JJ joints in the future.........
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I put a snorkel on my Jeep after a 9,000 dollar engine replacement. It definitely gives me a little comfort knowing that I can worry about one less thing going into a pit/river crossing etc. And I've had Jeeps in some seriously deep water and never had electrical issues. Well in the TJ I replaced a few TPS but nothing major.
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Another option, unless its a YJ of course is just rerouting your intake to the cowl. If your like me, deep water equals death... Me no likey. If I ever had water comin over the hood and hittin the cowl... Id have done somethin really stupid for how I wheel.
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Yes I have had the cowl under water. I was lucky as that is where the air intake for the moter is. If you have a wet or mud on your filter you got lucky and dodged a bullit.
Change your air intake , either move it or take air from the cowl or a snorkel.
That being said I think all snorkels are butt ugly , personel opinion and on my jeep the intake is from the cowl.
TJ have lots of room under the hood to make up a good functioning cowl intake.
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On the snorkle issue.... I had one on my XJ and plan one very soon for the LJ. Not worried about water and mud, but the dust..!!! Out on a dry trail and following others, the snorkle draws in more fresh air being up high...not sucking as much dust from the wheel and engine bay. Just another thought. 8)
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i spent $20 on a snorkel for my jeep on 33's. When i got another jeep on 37.s...no snorkel. For the life of me, i could never spend money on a company brand name snorkel.
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When i got another jeep on 37.s...no snorkel.
At that point you're probably sitting too high to be able to suck water past the air filter anyway!
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Seriously considering a set of Rubicon express arms, any experience with the super flex joint? I know about the rubber bushings problem, apparently it is fixed.
Probably end up with Currie arms as Northridge has them in stock and I want to go wheelin again soon. But if the RE arms are good I'll give them a shot, I know they flex good and they are less pricey
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Ive heard nothin but problems with slop on those joints. Jjs cant be added later without welding housings on and Id double check that they are back in business and making rebuilds.... youll need alot of em if you wheel anything beyond mediocre. Try Dave at Broken Axle too. He beat Northridge on price and shipping time and Im glad he did... Great guy to deal with.
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I appreciate your all your advice, I'll give Dave a call and see who can do the best price.
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If you want to replace your control arms soon, then go ahead and buy cheap ones. If you want them to last for a while...Currie or Clayton would be the way to go.
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Jamal, this might help with your snorkel debate, http://www.spectreperformance.com/#CATALOG.9943. Spectre makes an intake that takes air from the cab through the fire wall. Not sure about noise level but seems pretty viable. As for CA, go currie jj, I ve done a lot of research over the past year and concluded that these are the ones. You just better not order up the last set from Stan at northridge4x4! He has a pair on hold for me... Jk!!
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I've got the RE superflex arms on my XJ and they are BRUTAL. I rebuilt the axle end spherical ball joints when I first got them cause they were pooched, a few months after that they were clunking around again so I pulled them out, tightened a couple turns and put them back in, that lasted 2 or 3 wheelin trips til they were clunking again. Im getting rid of them asap...
As for the intake I just ditched the box and turned my intake arm towards the pass side, put on the longest length of 3" PVC I could and a K&N cone filter on the end of it. Gives the motor more air and solves my intake problem. If the entire hood is under water then the intake might get wet but by then you probably have other problems too... :P
Here's a pic
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/Hondaddict/intakeandhorns.jpg)
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Good to know about the RE arms, I am for sure getting the Currie. As for the intake, I think a DIY cowl intake seems to be the best route. Something like this http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f140/tj-cowl-induction-snorkle-598857/ is what I am considering. My only concern is that if you push a wave over the hood it kinda ends up right in your filter, plus it rains/snows I am not sure how well it will do.
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There are drains in the fresh air plenum so that watwr draons out. (http://tapatalk.com/mu/4ac696b4-ffe7-8015.jpg)
Here is mine on an xj though. could not get a snorkel with raised fender flares and abs to fit. the filter is a huge six by nine cone style. Cost me about 25$ as already had a new filter.
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That's what I plan to do when I have some free time. I'm looking at mounting a Ford Winstar box inside the engine compartment and routing the tubing to cowl. Like Andy has above, maybe a little more pretty than that ;).
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Why not just keep the stock box and filter. Reroute the intake to the cowl. Remove the existing horn.. silicone a spray paint can lid in place of... and make a new hole coming out the rear of the stock box. Then you can change your filters easier. Leaves room to 90 the portion in the cowl facing up... juuust in case you get alot of water in there... youll notice it on your floor before it ever fills enough to syphon into the box. Or 90 down and drill a small hole in the top of the 90, itll gurgle like mad if water ever tries to creep down creating a durso effect.
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And while your in the cowl.... get a roof vent adapter and throw a cone filter on the fresh air intake.... say goodbye to the dust.
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Why not just keep the stock box and filter. Reroute the intake to the cowl. Remove the existing horn.. silicone a spray paint can lid in place of... and make a new hole coming out the rear of the stock box. Then you can change your filters easier. Leaves room to 90 the portion in the cowl facing up... juuust in case you get alot of water in there... youll notice it on your floor before it ever fills enough to syphon into the box. Or 90 down and drill a small hole in the top of the 90, itll gurgle like mad if water ever tries to creep down creating a durso effect.
I've also seen someone with that setup, very slick. I have a K&N intake, so I need to replace the entire intake system (or trade for a stock one).
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There is lots of good info in the thread about snorkels.
I can tell you that if I ever decide to mount one, it will be routed above the heater coil in the upper portion of the dash. Don't kid yourself, it will be noisy..
As for control arms, it depends on your wheeling and budget.... JJ and RE full flex are great for full flex and droop, lots of articulation. Often overlooked is the Trackbars.. Essentially in a 5 Link system it will bind up long before the joint sees its maximum travel.. To understand the TJ/WJ/XJ 5 link, the factory "pierces" the axle and frame brackets at a predetermined location to set the Caster at the optimum for the vehicle. Caster is essentially not adjustable in a majority of these vehicles. (I dont count cam bolts, as the manufactures dont use them anymore) Look at a factory jeep, the arms have almost zero angle relative to the plane of travel. Lift kits change this force loading drastically when the angle increases.
Stock arms provide the best flex of any short arm on the market.. Cheap and easily found. Replacement bushings are around $8.. Ive seen more than one rig on a short arm lift ramp well over 1000 rti on factory arms.. Just carry a spare.. And you cant correct Caster, so your limited to less than 3" lift.
So - why even buy new arms? The primary reason is to have the length adjustable to correct Caster.
My 2 cents -
The poly bushing style arms are more than adequate for less than 5" of short arm lift and a majority of the terrain I have found in the area. The length is often adjustable. Poly bushings are not created equal, so do your homework. Less cost to replace, and often can use factory style cartridge bushings on the frame end for a better ride. Easily built to length.. Some have a "swivel" feature, which increase the flex. Keep them clean and in good shape.. (Ask any YJ owner..)
Heims - not usually found on street rigs with forward 5 link, since you may as well remove your springs and weld the axle to the frame.
JJ, RE, (Rebuildable spherical joints) - are the best combination of poly bushings and heims. Arguably the correct joint for high angle side loads and minimal dampening. Cost is by far the highest. Can be rebuilt, and again are often found with factory style cartridge joints on the frame end for a better ride. The best of the best is Evolution joints. There is a reason you see them in high end race applications.
All that said - I run a set of RE double flex arms (bought used for next to nothing from someone upgrading to long arm and rebuilt). The ones with the Joint on one end and the rubber hourglass bushing on the other. As for their spherical joints, if properly maintained are an excellent joint for the price.. The rubber hourglass was a good idea - it offered the same ride as a factory bushing, but allowed more flex. RE got a bad name when they experienced quality problems with the hour glass bushings. (I was chewing through a set in a month of street driving) I have made about a year on my last set of hourglass bushings I received from RE, just before they closed. I intend to replace with a factory style joint or a JJ just for availability. RE is back open, and I will let them prove quality before I try them. I can say that without question they would send me a new bushing, no hassle. I had great customer service with them.. I dont doubt my ability to build arms, but these were cheaper than I could build, Cr parts and spherical joints..
There are tons of good quality brands out there. Poor maintenance and improper caster will ruin any option. Another big problem is folks will tighten the control arm bolts prior to setting the vehicle on the ground and allowing the suspension to take weight. The proper procedure is to get the bolt in, sit it on the ground and tighten to full torque. (This is a good rule of thumb for most suspension based components on jeeps.)
Dont buy into the "spend as much as possible and you wont have problems"
Tech note: You can replace arms easier on a 5 link system without lifting the vehicle off the ground. Place a jack under the frame and lift until the bolt slides out. Just do one arm at a time..
Disclaimer - if you have long arms the loading is not the same, and you need to review the designs again.
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Good advice and lots of info. I can agree with you from personal experience about stock arms. My caster is terrible and that is why an aftermarket arm has been ordered.
Right now at 3" suspension lift and 1.25 BL with 35" tires, I have a total of 4" bump stop extensions and it still just rubs the fender, I have about 6 inches of up travel, which I hear is all you really need. How much more practical flex can I obtain from Johnny Joints in my situation? not much more as the coil will fall out, or as you said the track bar will really start to become the limiting factor. In the rear the ultimate goal is to eliminate the track bar entirely, but that is not for some time.
I ended up buying a set of Currie lowers: Which leaves me with a couple questions
Would "progressive" springs help solve the spring falling out problem? Or is there a spring that is very long unloaded that swell up to not leave gaps at full flex?
How much extra performance is gained from aftermarket front uppers? I think I'd rather get the JJ track bar and leave the uppers for...ever.
I really like my short arm lift, it rides well, flexes good and is relatively modest in terms of price (that is changing quickly), for my lift and tire size I have heard that long arms are not really that beneficial.
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Has anyone mentioned BDS yet? I've had really good luck with my fully adjustable upper/lower arms & bushings and the No BS guarantee can't be beat.
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BDS is great, but why would I pay the same for their flex arms when I can get double JJ arms?
Are the BDS like the JKS in that they twist in the middle?
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The RE 2.5 springs are really long. id be surprised if your spring unseats befor your shock limits travel before hand... unless you got long travels. Could always run limiting straps or mount some spring clips. If your not stretching or changing pinion angles... youll be fine with that much lift on the stock uppers. Atleast till you triangulate the rear to ditch the trackbar.
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I have the 3" BDS kit and while it is great riding kit that is very reliable, The springs do unseat relatively easily and aren't very tall unloaded.
RE, AEV Currie and so on have "progessive" coils, which basically have 2 rates, one to "fill the gaps" (take the weight of the jeep)as I asked earlier and then they become linear like a typical rate spring.
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A progressive spring wont do anything for it unseating... just need a longer spring or as I mentioned above. Progressives need to be matched to a shock as well.
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BDS is the manufacturer for zone if I am not mistaken, and I am very happy with my kit, the 4" lift flexes well but is still good for the road. I'm not sure on durability yet.
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BDS is the manufacturer for zone if I am not mistaken, and I am very happy with my kit, the 4" lift flexes well but is still good for the road. I'm not sure on durability yet.
Although BDS owns Zone, Zone is not equal to BDS. I have the BDS arms but I have Currie Springs, not many other manufacturers can touch the Currie Springs.
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The only coil that wont unseat as you are describing is a coil over.. The TJ/XJ/WJ 5 link has 3 times more down travel than required for the spring bucket.
Use limiting straps or longer bumpstops.
4" uptravel is all that is needed. If you need more than that you are going to fast.. Get a live bumpstop to go fast..
by the way - the rear has the same issue..
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After the install of the Currie arms I decided to flex my suspension out and see how everything was working itself out. It turns out the Currie arms gave me probably an additional 3 ish inches of down travel which is currently limited by my shocks...My old lowers would limit the travel when they came up against the bracket.
Is it ok to have the shocks limit travel? I intend to do something about eventually but I want to go wheeling in the mean time...
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Shocks arent designed to hold that weight... especially if it comes hard and fast. Just take it easy on em. Limiting straps are what you need or keep all four wheels on the ground.
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Put straps on place or you will blow put shocks. Currently waiting for shocks to come in that where overextended / over compressed doing baja style driving
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Put straps on place or you will blow out shocks. Currently waiting for shocks to come in that where overextended / over compressed doing baja style driving
Andy is right.. And it took 7 months for Rubicon to finally send me my new monotubes that blew the seals out... They are not designed to limit your axle travel, and you will toast the seals in them if you use them for that purpose. Do it right the first time, and do it once :)
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So its either buy proper shocks and have it flex right out, albeit useless flex at the coil is held in by the bump stops. This will also require the move to YJ brake lines for some extra length.
Or do some sort of limiting strap.......with my 3" lift, Or get an anti-rock....
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So its either buy proper shocks and have it flex right out, albeit useless flex at the coil is held in by the bump stops. This will also require the move to YJ brake lines for some extra length.
Or do some sort of limiting strap.......with my 3" lift, Or get an anti-rock....
Yup
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After the install of the Currie arms I decided to flex my suspension out and see how everything was working itself out. It turns out the Currie arms gave me probably an additional 3 ish inches of down travel which is currently limited by my shocks...My old lowers would limit the travel when they came up against the bracket.
Is it ok to have the shocks limit travel? I intend to do something about eventually but I want to go wheeling in the mean time...
Just curious, how did you test the down travel?
Good to hear they worked out..
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Well....I jacked up the frame of my Jeep (drivers side) until the front wheel left the ground.
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Just thinking about this. How did you determine downtravel from that? Are you saying your shock iss bottoming out before you hit your bump stops? If you wanna check down travel as best you can like that.... take a wheel off, supporting that side by the frame of course, letting it droop as much as it can. Then go jack up the other wheel till she hits the stops.
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Just thinking about this. How did you determine downtravel from that? Are you saying your shock iss bottoming out before you hit your bump stops? If you wanna check down travel as best you can like that.... take a wheel off, supporting that side by the frame of course, letting it droop as much as it can. Then go jack up the other wheel till she hits the stops.
To be complete on a 4Link w/panhard you need to do both sides, average the two, since you will have different down travel on Pass/Driver.. Basically you need to lift one ft tire till the opposite tire on the same axle leaves the ground. You've seen all the photos of forklifts..
I was curious if he had a lift or a fork truck he was testing with..