Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: specialk on July 05, 2012, 08:26:56 AM
-
New contest for all you know it alls out there and hopefully some good tech comes out of it. A series of questions will be posted covering popular and commonly asked posts. Keep it civilized, no flaming, but feel free to counter with your opinion... just be ready to back it up!
We will start off with something general.
Question 1) What is the best jeep for wheeling and why?
Are minivans better grocery getters than XJs? Or are TJ's the ultimate rig? Or are old-skool leave sprung Yjs the only way to go (not)? CJs and earlier?
-
I'd throw Clay's or Will's ZJ up against any Jeep on the forum.
-
I'd throw Clay's or Will's ZJ up against any Jeep on the forum.
Ok....then let's go wheel Moab. No tow rigs allowed ;D
-
ZJ's can be very capable. Have a wider selection of engine sizes, but have a high cost to start lifting them and doing mods... would it be fair to say there is a more limited aftermarket for ZJs than an XJ/TJ? There is also the weight aspect...
I'm partial to the TJ. Best motor, decent aftermarket, has a frame, go topless/doorless without cutting up hinges, and never came with leather. I would put my top vote for the LJ with longer wheelbase , but again it appears to me that aftermarket for it is smaller due it's small market.
To get into wheeling today, TJ is your best bet.
-
For a factory stock Jeep, it would be hard to beat an LJ Rubicon.
Now if you're talking modified, the best Jeep is dictated by how deep the pockets are.
Wait now, factory stock would be the SWB Rubicons.
With 4g to spend, Rubicon LJ all the way.
-
OK - Let's put a reasonable budget on the mods. You have any stock jeep and $4000 to spend on parts (no labour). That a fair amount? Or should we go more of a budget and do $2000?
-
The aftermarket is starting to catch up for ZJs. The cost issue is still there though and for a lot of people that will keep them from going further than a BB and 31's. The more desirable 44a in the ZJ only has 1 locker choice (Aussie) and only a few truss options. It also has its own set of issues that cause grief. Swapping in an 8.8 with a locker is probably going to run you $1600.
More lift is also needed to run larger tires. Usually about 2.5" for 31's, 4.5" for 33's and those are if you don't mind a bit of trimming.
Edit: $4,000 won't help a ZJ unless you do a ton of fab yourself. With that budget; LJ Rubicon, TJ or JKUR.
-
since we're harping on ZJs, and Kev doesn't think a ZJ on a BB is capable ;)...........
ZJs suck in stock form. they have garbage rear axles, garbage AWD transfer cases, and garbage CV joints in the front axle and on the driveshaft. they have problematic transmissions that don't have a breather at the top, so they CAN take on water (and blow the tranny apart)
the D44a is marginally better. but more costly. not worth swapping.....
swap a better axle in the rear (8.8 or 9") np 231 tcase and ujoint axles/ds and you have a starting point similar to a TJ.
then your lookin big bucks for a decent lift (not rough country) just to run 33s.
TJ does that with a BB........ but doesn't have a V8 :) nor the ability to hold groceries.
-
The 249 is the strongest T-case in the ZJ. Yes, some of them do get toasted. Not all of them and even then its $300 to fix it which is what you will pay for a t-case swap all in.
-
For $2000 you can barely buy tires these days.
-
true... We keep it 4K then... what do you buy?
-
The 249 is the strongest T-case in the ZJ. Yes, some of them do get toasted. Not all of them and even then its $300 to fix it which is what you will pay for a t-case swap all in.
don't argue with me son.
;)
earlier 249s had garbage VCs that did not lock in 4low (try using the engine to go slow down a hill... ) and they hang super low, below the cross member.
231 takes two hours to swap, sits HIGHER in the rig than the 249, has aftermarket support, AND you can do 2wd burnouts :p
-
Best Jeep for wheeling: 1986 Jeep Cherokee Laredo 2wd
1. With the power of the 2.8L V6 you never had to worry about speeding tickets on the way to the trail; likewise the torque ensured the D35 axleshafts would last forever.
2. Regearing costs half the price of other Jeeps, same with diff fluid changes
3. Unlike these ZJ guys with crappy cases, this beast doesn't even have a pesky TC to have to worry about breaking down
My second choice would be a TJ Rubicon - best combo of engine/drivetrain/suspension ever put in a Jeep. If I was starting over it'd be a Rubicon all the way.
-
Is the budget including the initial cost of the vehicle or is it just for mods?
-
Just mods...
-
don't argue with me son.
;)
earlier 249s had garbage VCs that did not lock in 4low (try using the engine to go slow down a hill... ) and they hang super low, below the cross member.
231 takes two hours to swap, sits HIGHER in the rig than the 249, has aftermarket support, AND you can do 2wd burnouts :p
The early ones were crap. The low lock is nice to have on the later cases, I barely had to touch the brakes on those hills last weekend.
My 249 sits just as high as your 231 and if I buy $2000 worth of tires there is no way I'll be roasting them in a parkin lot. ;D
-
true... We keep it 4K then... what do you buy?
LJ Rubicon to start with.
Savvy UnderArmor, Currie control arms, OME 2.5" coils, Bilstein 5125 or 5150 shocks, JKS trackbars, flat fenders, 35" MTR/Ks
-
What? no winch? winch bumper? try again...
-
YJ.
Oh yeah I said it. You can pick them up for so cheap. A few carful nights spent on Kijiji and a few weekends at the junk yard and you can be running SOA on 38’s with the diffs to back them up for 2-3k depending on what tires you run. You still have money left over for a winch and beer. Try that on anything else but a YJ or maybe a CJ if it’s not rotten to the core.
Oh and you have [] headlights, which is the best part ;D
-
LJ Rubicon to start with.
Savvy UnderArmor, Currie control arms, OME 2.5" coils, Bilstein 5125 or 5150 shocks, JKS trackbars, flat fenders, 35" MTR/Ks
That would be well over 4k no? Only need the rear trackbar, front jks will hit, only solution at that height is stock bar. Your forgetting spacers or new wheels to run 35s, stock backspacing will hit everywhere without severely gimping your steering stops and your suspension travel.
On that note. TJ Rubicon (cause LJs look stoopid), OME 2.5 coils, shocks and rear trackbar bracket. JKS MML, BL. Antirock. ESC tummy tuck. Steering box skid and 33 load range c mtrs on new 15x8 3.75 aluminum wheels. Either a used winch or a good sale and you'll have enough change left over for a cb.
-
Fraser you're drunk.
for the record if i had a 4k budget i'd do a TJ.
but since i tried this in reality already i'll share my trials and tribulations.
4k?
1500 for suspension when its all said and done. that was cheap stuff. i want non RC stuff
800 for tires... sold the stock ones for 200 so this is my overall $$$ spent
300 for winch plate from RC.
500 for used winch (or my rebuilt one)
900 for stock skids, front axle shafts, ujoint driveshaft, np231 transfer case, and some other misc. stuff. CB, maintenence stuff (wheel bearings) a rebuilt drive shaft etc.
who where HASN'T blown a 4k budget out of the water yet lol
OR....
gut the ZJ..... start with TJ. tj has 2" lift. put 33s, 4.88 gears and aussies front and rear, bolt on warn winch/plate, tummy tuck and MML.... go flog
maybe i should gut the ZJ
-
Ok....then let's go wheel Moab. No tow rigs allowed ;D
HAHA! You've got me there. Driving to Moab in my rig would be NASTY! Honestly I don't think it would make it.
-
Honestly for an all out rig I would do a 4 door Wrangler. That will probably be my next build and more of an expedition style with good on street manners. The frame makes things easier, the design of the body makes it less prone to getting wacked and easier to fix if it does. Tons of aftermarket stuff so its cheaper.
If I had to build a rig on $4000-parts only, I'd probably a TJ, its the cheapest on aftermarket parts and lots of used stuff.
$4000 including the rig, I'd do an XJ hands down. You can pick a decent running beater up for CHEAP, hack the fenders, budget boost, 33s, locker, winch, good to go. Drivetrain is near bulletproof under 33s, other than the D35 if you really like the skinny pedal.
Would I ever build another ZJ? Doubtful, although I do have a 5.9 that I daily drive that would make a cool expedition rig.
-
If you're starting with a stock rig (budget's the limit), plus $4000, then a stock Rubicon TJ would be the best 4x4.
But then again, we're cheating here. A stock TJ Rubicon already comes modified right off the lot, doesn't it? That's what makes it a Rubicon.
-
yes, the rubi gives you an advantage cause you are already locked up....
ONE MORE CONDITION... let's assume any jeep BUT a rubi. 4K in after market only - you already own a jeep. If it's a rubi, you are already ahead of the game...
I like what you did Johnny, you broke down the pricing!
-
TJ is the way to go everything else is second best and put me with Clay's rig and i will roast him ;) .
-
TJ is the way to go everything else is second best and put me with Clay's rig and i will roast him ;) .
but you only have 2 feet of tin off a TJ left ;p
-
All of you are dead wrong.
CJ. (Yes I drive a TJ).
Here's why:
Stupid easy to swap in any S/BBC motor and run either carb or EFI, there's no computer or real wiring to fiddle around with, blow fuses, throw codes etc. Turn the key and VROOM. The 302 is also a great engine for tweaking. If you want power go creep the Gremlin Owners Group for build tips.
Two choices of axle widths from the factory, and it's a passenger side drop so the list of 3rd party axles that will fit is endless.
Leaf springs (modern ones anyway) if set up correctly offer a great amount of flex and since they are leaf springs you can swap axles with almost no effort. No fiddling around with control arms, track bars or spring perches. About the most technical you can get is a torsion bar when you run into big torque.
D300. 'Nough said.
They are old and simple enough you A) can trash them and they work B) can trash them and not care C) can trash them and get another/parts for dirt cheap.
Anyone who argues can A) enjoy their lack of frame for control arms, bumpers, skidplate and tow points B) suck it when they dunk their dash and all of a sudden the speedo doesn't work stalling their jeep C) enjoy their sentinel chip shorting out and no starting their jeep.
CJ. Cheap, simple, rugged, almost impossible not to upgrade.
-
i completely agree, tj's are the best way to go with tons of cheap aftermarket support.
But i managed to do pretty good with my jz
1000 for the vehicle
500 for rims and tires
150 for rims
600 for lift
300 for d30 aussie locker
300 for 8.8 swap
front, rear bumpers and fender flares i cheated on, i build them myself with free materials from my work
500 dollars on misc
200 dollars on a/c compressor to air compressor conversion
450 for winch
and i got lucky with the transmission and tcase it has had a AW4 transmission so i was able to run a breather up under the hood and it has the NP 242 transfer case
so it isnt awd
-
When it comes to low budget, great performance, dependability, and reliability in my books its the YJ.
4000 can go a LONG ways on a stock YJ with tons of junkyard support. Its leaf, so its dependable and simple. Getting a few inches of lift is a pretty simple and easy, for pocket change you can upgrade your engine to a SBC, upgraded axles are super easy too.
In my mind if you are trying to get the most on trail time and getting into the best spots and have 4000 to start off with a jeep in hand, you will get the best spread for parts and upgrades on the YJ. Fab work is simple enough, leaf perches vs 4 link mounts and spring buckets on axle swaps will save you money in itself. which can be put towards a good used winch and some better good used meats.
-
I like what you did Johnny, you broke down the pricing!
thats where i STOPPED..................... lord knows i'm into it for alot more..... and will be into it for more soon ;)
-
Plus beltloops - how much are you into it for those? :D
-
Plus beltloops - how much are you into it for those? :D
to date, none. this one has better latching mechanisms....... next is currie and a front locker....... perhaps an aussie............. it never ends
-
Skip to 4:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl6e-n9jMQk
thats were my 4K would go
-
The starting rig is irrelevant. It's what goes into them. That said, it comes down to the user.
I have all the parts to finish my yj. When it's done it will be locked front and rear, linked and coil overex on the front, beadlocked, bumpered, caved, and winched for well under 4k.
And it will weigh less then a factory yj.
But what I can do with 4k and a jeep is deferent than what someone new can do is an entirely different thing.
But, at the end of the day the wrangler series of rigs will always be the bang for the buck. Primarily the tj or rubi's.
The tj line comes with the best factory geometry for technical wheeling. Some aftermarket arms and you are off to the races.
Even the zj is linked, it's factory geometry is the absolute craps. I'm sure weight distribution comes into play. Tj's climb so well because their weight distribution is 50/50 front to rear.
Xjs suffer from leafs in the back and often poor weight distribution. I don't think I ever met an xj'r first getting into the hobby that didn't feel obligated to load the back of the wagon with 600lbs of crap. Then they look at you funny when they can't climb the easy stuff at top of the world.
With the right amount if knowledge you can get any body style to do anything. But for beginners the bang for the buck when it comes to 4 wheeling capability is tj wrangler line.
With 4k you can lock, bead lock, winch, body lift, and do suspension on a tj for 33's.
-
i beg to differ young master billy,
starting rig is relevant. As the years go by, the price on making the initial purchase plays a big factor.
If i take a brand new 4 door JK and add 4 g's...
versus
a used bone stock TJ allows me to add 'x' number of dollars to catch up to a newer JK and in spending 'x' number of dollars, i will have a WAY better jeep than any newer product.
8)
-
Oh I couldn't agree more Tom. But I thought we were supposed to compare regardless of initial purchase price.
Initial prices considered there really is no comparison to a 97-98 tj or a mid nineties yj if you have the ability to customize on you own.
-
If disregarding price, then 00-04 TJ with the NV3550, 4.0L and Dana 44 rear option.
-
:laughing: yeah, i have no idea what the topic meant.
The best jeep for wheeling with a 4g add on option.
In order
LJ Rubicon
TJ Rubicon
2 door JK Rubicon (new engine years)
4 door JK Rubicon (new engine years)
i am not sure how Rubicon can be excluded as it comes factory that way.
So, OP what are you actually asking? :D
-
This topic reminds me of Fultah Fisher's Broading House, they may have be sailors but sound alot like Jeep owners.
'T was Fultah Fisher's boarding-house,
Where sailor-men reside,
And there were men of all the ports
From Mississip to Clyde,
And regally they spat and smoked,
And fearsomely they lied.
They lied about the purple Sea
That gave them scanty bread,
They lied about the Earth beneath,
The Heavens overhead,
For they had looked too often on
Black rum when that was red.
They told their tales of wreck and wrong,
Of shame and lust and fraud,
They backed their toughest statements with
The Brimstone of the Lord,
And crackling oaths went to and fro
Across the fist-banged board.
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/ballad_of_fisher.html (http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/ballad_of_fisher.html)
$4000 would set up a good CJ.
Own a CJ,YJ and TJ.
Greg
-
#1 - LJ Rubi - wanted one after watching some XJ's pass thru ledges a Rubi couldn't make it, all the goodies of TJ Rubi + more space, wheelbase
#2 - TJ Rubi - have one, it's OK
#3 - 97-00 XJ, had 3, the 8.25 is a better axle than the D35, low pinion D30, can fit lots of gear, locked and geared can follow most Rubi's around with no probs.
-
The very first post asks which jeep is best.
It is not the jk . The suspension works awesome but the umlimited is so heavy and once you load it up with all the offroad farkles you might as well get a powervvegan.
It is not the tj. They are nice but again to heavy , just slightly over weight.
The xj ,well they are so unbalanced so and none of the cool guys drink xj coolaid. but they are lighter then tj, jk, and even yj so they are contenders.
The yj,s are in they got modern heating and leaf springs. Suspension is reliable. no track barbolts or control arm bushings to wear out.
the cj,s the 5 and 7 are lighter then all the rest but have no heat. does that matter ?
And the 2a, 3a 3b flat fenders all classics . New of the showroom floor 2000 to 2200 pds. Built up 2500 to 2800 pds. Forwheeeling anywhere but maclean on the tight trails perfect.
oh and the cost to build choose your koolaid
2 lunch box lockers $800
winch plate $100 to $300 depending on model
buying winch locally on sale $400
tires and rims $3000 if you have 17 inch rims on a jk or $1700 for 15 inch rims and tires.
Lift ? $1000 for a good set of leaf springs that flex with shocks or up to $3000 +for those coil springy jeep kits that work. But if you know your way around the shop you can build for less. :D :D ;D
-
By that logic you should be building a Suzuki sidekick. :D
Did you ever wheel with the Stampeders when Terry had has old CJ5 with the narrow track axles? I cant't count how many times he either put that thing on its side or stood it on its rear bumper.
-
CJ5's aren't flatfenders, and are known for tipping. ;)
-
.
-
CJ5's aren't flatfenders, and are known for tipping. ;)
Oh...and no one has suggested that they're the best jeep for wheeling. ;)