Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: SwampSinger on January 19, 2008, 01:12:23 AM
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I was talking to Bnine and ADRC about Hydro assit... there a few nice kit out there...
but check out what I found...
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55711&highlight=hydraulic+assist+100.00
anyone try that before?
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Yep, picked up all of the stuff from P/A and drilled tapped the box(had to buy a special tap), using info I found in that thread and some from Pirate.
Was rather disappointed with it actually, lost a bit of turing radius as the ram didn't have enough travel(was short about .5" each direction). The reduction in steering effort was noticably less but not nearly as good what I had expected. I also kept burning up stock PS pumps. Would only get about 2-3 trips out of a pump before it burned up.
I would budget to also do a HD aftermarket pump and cooler with external reservoir. I also went thru 3 different types of fittings for the box before finding ones that didn't leak thru the tapped threads.
Makes buying a pre-tapped box and kit sound appealing.....
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I was talking to Bnine and ADRC about Hydro assit... there a few nice kit out there...
but check out what I found...
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55711&highlight=hydraulic+assist+100.00
anyone try that before?
Dom one thing I found out in researching this is that a y style linkage won't work, you need a steering set up with a tie rod that connects knuckle to knuckle and a drag links that connects to the knuckle so after just dropping the money on my currie setup . So I will wait till it wears out before I start collecting parts for this upgrade
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Good point! Howver if you are still running the stock steering setup it won't be up to the task of ram assist anyway.
For clarification I'm running a custom D44 front with a high steer arm mounted on the passenger side knuckle. The drag ling goes directly to this arm and the tie rod sits in the stock location. The ram is mounted to a mount built into the the passenger side coil spring bucket and then to the tie rod. I had to convert to an over the axle mount trac bar to have enough room for the ram. Not sure if there is enough room for all that on a stockish D30.
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Dom one thing I found out in researching this is that a y style linkage won't work, you need a steering set up with a tie rod that connects knuckle to knuckle and a drag links that connects to the knuckle so after just dropping the money on my currie setup . So I will wait till it wears out before I start collecting parts for this upgrade
Thanks Steve and Clay ...
I have a knuckle to knuckle tye rod...
what about if you get a ram that has 1" more travel... would it take care of the stearing issue?
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Probably, but ram length is usually sold in 4" increments. You could get a bigger and put spacers and the end of the stroke to limit travel. If your ram has too much travel then you'll rip your knuckles off. Also for some the ram I'm using was too long, just depends on your particular application.
If you aren't running a over the knuckle steering for the drag ling and an over the axle trac bar mount then you will need to mount the ram of of the diff cover on the driver's side as opposed to on the passenger's side like I did. I don't think that the driver's side would work for me as I think for some reason there was interference with the upper trac bar mount when I stuffed up the driver's side tire and as well there wasn't enough room passing by the passenger side coil mount/trac mount for the rod end of the ram. When you turn your wheels far left or right you will see that the tie rod actually swings IN quite close to the axle. On my setup it almost touches the passenger side mount. This is because when built my D44 I tried to copy the D30 setup exactly. I found out later that when building a D44 most people center the coil spring on the axle(moves diff housing forward) as opposed to having the coil buckets offset forward of the axle tube. This gives more room for steering linkage.
To clarify my setup, my ram is basically mounted where the steering dampner was. I've got the axle out right now on the garage floor, its buried under some other stuff but if I get a chance I'll try to snap some pics.
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How streetable is hydraulic assist? I know that the steering will have no return to centre but are there any other differences?
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you can get any length ram or any stroke length you want.... if you pay for it :P
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I have been doing a lot of research. I have been in contact with the shop that I use for hydraulic repairs and after talking to them I may start putting these kits together and marketing them. There is only one company that I can find that puts together a decent kit that will function properly and they are expensive. The rest on the kits would work but not well because they dont include calibrated rams or regulators. My question to you guys is what kind of price would attract you to one of these kits? Keep in mind that they would be for sale in Canada, so you would not have to pay as much shipping and would not have to pay duty.
Any helpful feedback would be great. Thanks
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did anyone see xtreme 4x on the weekend ? , they tapp'ed a toyota pump and mounted it on a suzuki running 37's I think ...
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How streetable is hydraulic assist? I know that the steering will have no return to centre but are there any other differences?
You are thinking of full hydraulic steering. Ram assist still has return to center and is completly streetable because you are retaining your stock system.
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good to know thanks, I assumed that because of the added hydraulic assist located at the tie rod the steering would be more reluctant to return to centre.
I guess that I will find out when my truck is done. I am going to tap the gear and modify my pump as soon as I get a chance, then I am going to get the system flow tested so I can match a cylinder to it.
I just look at all of the kits out there and there is not one(unless they are not listing all of there parts) that addresses the fact the the ram will have a slower or faster rate on one side, unless one side is set up with a regulator.
I also have only seen one kit that has a power steering cooler with it, without one I believe that you would melt the pump in no time because of the temperatures that can be reached in a hydraulic system at these pressures. An average automotive vane type power steering pump can be capable of generating approx 2500psi. when moded.
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why would the ram hav a slower return rate thenwhen it extends...... ???
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You are right I made a mistake the rod side will be faster than the piston side.(fixed previous post)
On the pressure side of the piston that affects the extension side of the ram, the piston will have the full surface area and full chamber volume of the of the ram, in the chamber on the side that has the piston on it the area of the piston area is reduced and the chamber volume is reduced. So if the same flow rate and pressure is applied the piston should move faster on one side than the other. I am going to do the math to figure if the rate of travel will be affected or if only the amount of assist from one side to the other will be affected(I am finding this complicated because there are two hydraulic mechanisms in play, ram + steering box). That is where the regulator valve comes in. In theory it should act as an equalizer for the two sides.
I am working with a guy at a hydraulic shop and he is the one who brought the point up when I aproached him for a custom cylinder.
I am still figuring the math out. It is a little outside of my normal realm of employment. Tune-ups don't require math :P
I should have finished high school, if I only knew that math was actually usefull. :o
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Just an idea for your hydro assist, as I will be building one at some point. Install a restricted orfice in the fitting at the rod end. These are available in many sizes and are also available right in the fitting, and can be drilled and sized to control flow. One must be very careful not to cause to much of a restriction/ back pressure. This is better than a flow regulator as it is out of harms way. Due to the surface area on the piston size it will have stronger steering force in one direction, but should not effect performance.
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the regulator is the same idea as an orifice it is just one that can be re calibrated with a twist of a knob
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I never noticed a difference in the "speed" of turning while driving. I did however notice that when dry steering while at a standstill that one direction was easier than the other. This is due to the reduced surface area acting on the piston due to the ram. I persoanally want as much as I can get and wouldn't "handicap" one side just to make it even with the other.
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You can try to crank a vane out to 2500psi, but anything over 1400 is above what a saginaw box system can handle. So its pointless.
You want to keep pressure down, and flow up to reduce implosion of parts.
To maintain power you use the largest ram you can fit. Larger surface area in the ram will provide more assist with less pressure.
There are several good assist company's in the states. PSC, KRC, LEE's, HOWE, etc etc.
Only way to not handy cap is a double ended ram. Some have done it on a assist from what I've read, but I've never personally seen it.
Currie sells some of the best steering coolers on the market for a good price. Just search cooler.
Do not use tranny coolers in the steering. The fittings are to small, create heat, and will starve your resevoir on the return side. Causing heat and whine when your steering is under heavy load.
Also, Steve, there is a assist kit being developed in the states to bolt into the stock dampener, and work on the currie system. Although, if you run a cooler, tweak your pump, and get that durango box working, you'll never have a need for a spendy 2000$ assist kit.
hth
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To maintain power you use the largest ram you can fit. Larger surface area in the ram will provide more assist with less pressure.
hth
Provided that you have the flow to keep up with it. Too big of a ram and it will take too long to fill and slow down your steering repsonse.
The point about upgrade the resr of the system first is a good point. All I did was drill the valve in the pump bigger to increase flow. I used a stock box and pump, and no cooler. This is probably why it didn't work so good for me and kept burning up the pump.
Start with a better pump, add the reservior/cooler and then see how it is. This is stuff that should be done to properly support a ram assist anyway.
One thing I read about the Durango boxs is that the internal stops in them are larger than in an XJ so you lose steering travel unless you disassemble it and replace the stops with ones from an XJ box. Anyone using a Durango box that can confirm this?
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I use a durango box on denise's jeep. It is a touch shorter, but barely noticeble. Most our rigs with the larger rubber is limited by that much anyhow. Although it doesnt apply to her 33's with spacers. If you can use the travel, a wj pitman is a bit longer and will bring it back.
I think you were probably starving by the sounds of it. A drilled out pump with a stock res will almost always starve. Drilling out to 9/64's should flow enough to easily keep up with a 2" ram.
I've had this problem since drilling denise's out and not addressing the res. I'll be trying to figure out how to do an aftermarket res on that stock pump shortly. I'll report back when I get it figured.
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Yes I think I definetly need to address the reservoir issue. My "reservoir" caonsisted of a hose that came off of the nipple on the PS cap and went into a 1L oil bottle.
I'll be very interested to see what you came up with.
Because I am running D44 I actually need more throw from the box so thats why I avoided the Durango box. I think though that my old box is pooched so I might buy a Durango box and try it and if it doesn't have enough throw I may tear it apart and swap over the spacers from my XJ box.
Anyone know whats on the market for improved pumps or is just drilling out the stock one just as effective?
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I've had this problem since drilling denise's out and not addressing the res. I'll be trying to figure out how to do an aftermarket res on that stock pump shortly. I'll report back when I get it figured.
Have you looked at using a YJ pump since they came with a remote reservoir and then find a larger reservoir to fit your needs?
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No, but I'd like to see the fitting that feeds the yj pump. Thats the only road block I'm at right now.