Tie Rod Adjustment - Fail

[brianrh]

Alright.  Wheels is centered.    3 trips around the block and back to the garage to adjust one way or the other and get it in the sweet spot.  I figure I'm within +/- 2° of center.  I guess a $185 procal would let me say that I'm exactly at 0° and let the rig know I was on 35s, but it's not going to know anything about the 3"+ lift that's changed the center of gravity of the rig any way.  :-(

So, experience folks.  How do I start minimizing the lifted w/ 35s wiggles that I experience in the every day asphalt driving to and from work, the mall, Costco/Walmart/CanTire, etc...  out on the highway it runs pretty nice up to 120-130...  Am I really back to adjustable control arms, yet again to dial the front and rear axle alignment.  Can I get away with half a kit?  Maybe all lowers and just do new poly bushings on the uppers...?  Ugh... $1200 for control arms just rots me.  And then an alignment afterward...

[w squared]

Provided that you don't have mechanical issues in your suspension (and running nicely on the highway up to 130kph suggests that things are torqued properly and nothing is too far out of whack) , I'm thinking that your "wiggles" are probably three things:

#1. More rubber = more force. When those 35's hit a bump/pothole/whatever in the road, there's more rubber hitting asphalt. That means more force being exerted on the tire than there would be on the 32's that your JK came with. When the tires get pushed on by things like potholes, you'll probably feel it a little bit more than you did with 32's. This is won't really go away until you go the Hydro steering setup - but it's not a big issue.

#2.  If you are running a 3" lift with stock control arms, you're probably sitting at 2 or 3 degrees of caster. That means that the steering system does not return to center on it's own as well as the stock steering system. This is one of the reasons that most complete lift include control arms (or drop brackets for frame side control arm mounts). The good news is that for the small caster tweak that you're looking at doing, either a set of front upper or front lower control arms can probably get you back to a "happy" number for caster - somewhere around 5 degrees. Most people normally describe a lack of caster as the steering feeling "flighty".

#3. You've changed the geometry of your steering system. The perfect system has the track bar and drag link completely parallel, and perfectly horizontal. If your lift included an adjustable track bar instead of a track bar bracket, then your drag link and track bar should still be parallel (but not horizontal). If your lift kit included a track bar bracket, then your drag link and track bar are probably no longer parallel - and this can cause you to feel a whole lot of bump steer and in general will make the Jeep have craptacular road manners. If you hit a speed bump straight on (both tires hit it at the same time) and your steering wheel jerks to the left then you're experiencing bump steer.

[brianrh]

Thanks wsquared.  I've got a brand new adjustable trackbar since my last alignment at broken axel, however I don't believe things are ideally horiontal or parallel to one another.  Will look close this evening.  I think they are close but yah... I'll have to look into the hydro steer more, I'm not particularly happy with how either my previous or my current jeep steering feels.  The laundry list of todo items is a bit daunting sometimes. Lots to learn.

[Bnine]

1200

Alright.  Wheels is centered.    3 trips around the block and back to the garage to adjust one way or the other and get it in the sweet spot.  I figure I'm within +/- 2° of center.  I guess a $185 procal would let me say that I'm exactly at 0° and let the rig know I was on 35s, but it's not going to know anything about the 3"+ lift that's changed the center of gravity of the rig any way.  :-(

So, experience folks.  How do I start minimizing the lifted w/ 35s wiggles that I experience in the every day asphalt driving to and from work, the mall, Costco/Walmart/CanTire, etc...  out on the highway it runs pretty nice up to 120-130...  Am I really back to adjustable control arms, yet again to dial the front and rear axle alignment.  Can I get away with half a kit?  Maybe all lowers and just do new poly bushings on the uppers...?  Ugh... $1200 for control arms just rots me.  And then an alignment afterward...

You dont have to get an alignment after installing arms. Just measure your castor before and after. And the rear, well, you just dial the pinion.

You can buy arms in singles if you choose to. Up to you. I build arms once in a while in my spare time. I've never looked into building JK arms, but 1200$ sounds fairly steep.

[w squared]

Thanks wsquared.  I've got a brand new adjustable trackbar since my last alignment at broken axel, however I don't believe things are ideally horiontal or parallel to one another.  Will look close this evening.  I think they are close but yah... I'll have to look into the hydro steer more, I'm not particularly happy with how either my previous or my current jeep steering feels.  The laundry list of todo items is a bit daunting sometimes. Lots to learn.

A properly set up JK steering with 35's does not need Hydro unless you think it's cool to dry steer aired down tires at a dead stop on pavement. I ran mine as my DD with a 3" lift (adjustable front upper control arms to adress caster, two adjustable track bars to keep the axles centered - the rest all stock) and 35's for about three years. I found it to be fine. Yes, more bump steer than I had with 32's, but still very well behaved on the whole. Well behaved enough that I didn't even notice the fact that there was no oil in my steering stabilizer. 

If you are running the stock drag link and a proper adjustable trackbar, and there is no fancy-scmancy bracketry installed, your drag link and track bar should still be pretty much parallel. They're not horizontal, but they should be mostly parallel.  In order to get them more horizontal, you'd probably look at doing a drag link flip (connect on the top side of the knuckle) as well as a track bar bracket. This is not a step that I would take lightly because a poorly designed track bar bracket can end up applying extra leverage to the factory track bar mount, which can eventually lead to breakage. I did a drag link flip when I trussed my front axle...but that was because the truss completely covered the stock axle side track bar mount.

The other option would be an extended pitman arm (connects the sector shaft to the drag link) - but that has the same problems as the drag link flip, and put a pile of extra stress on your sector shaft too.

For the time being I'd address the caster with front lower control arms, and then see how it feels. I only suggest front lowers because front uppers are a PITA to do on a JK with the 3.8 liter because of where the exhaust runs. I don't know what it's like on a JK with the pentastar.

[Bnine]

You should try to avoid  adjusting caster with lowers. It will push out your wheel base, and can quickly lead to clearence issue at full stuff.

But if you have to make a minor adjustment, you could do it with lowers in a pinch.

Still, optimal is using uppers for caster.

[w squared]

I stand corrected - Bill definitely knows more than I do. My suggestion was just based on the fact that you need to sawzall through a bolt when you pull out the stock uppers, but avoiding wheelbase stretch definitely makes sense.

[brianrh]

Wheelbase stretch brings in need for longer drive shafts... yes?

[Bnine]

No. But it can quickly cause your front to bind up on stuff like the trackbar and draglink.

[brianrh]

07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Winch Bumper w/Integrated Fog Mounts [1062]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Bumper D-Ring Kit [1046]

http://www.roughcountry.com/jeep_xtras_jk.html

I think this order may go in this evening... to be negotiated (at home...)  

1.

07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]

$900


2.
07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Winch Bumper w/Integrated Fog Mounts [1062]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Bumper D-Ring Kit [1046]

$1300

3.

07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
Rough Country 9500lb Electric Winch [RS9500]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Winch Bumper w/Integrated Fog Mounts [1062]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Bumper D-Ring Kit [1046]

$1700

(Prices are shipping included...)

And in the end... jus the control arms and disconnects.  ;-)  Ordered.  Wait and see...

[Bnine]

You will wish you spent the extra money on currie control arms. Rough country arms do not last very long before they need work.

Just remember.


You heard it here.

[morerpmfred]

I have the old x series rough country control arms. Jks style. Five years old. Anal with grease gun. Do not know how they have survived this long. When they go will be replacing with jks control arms.

[brianrh]

Thanks guys. I don't mind servicing parts regularly. The summer/vaca budget appreciates holding onto the extra 500$. I expect 2-5 years and will go to something better if I need to when that particular obstacle arrives.