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Author Topic: Filling tires with nitrogen?  (Read 2833 times)

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4Play

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« on: August 20, 2006, 09:25:57 PM »
Is there a difference filling your tires with it?  Where I work we used compressed nitrogen and I have been tempted to fill up my tires and try it but don't really see what the difference would be?  Anyone else heard of doing this?

Offline RckyMtnTJ

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 10:41:47 PM »
Apparently Costco does it.  I don't know anything about it though.
98 TJ 4" lift + goodies

Offline dunl

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 10:54:14 PM »
Here's the same thread from a Mercedes forum I frequent, but with three pages of replies. :)

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=160495&highlight=nitrogen

If the air you breathe is 79% nitrogen, I don't see another 21% making a huge difference.
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4Play

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2006, 10:15:48 PM »
Wow, those guys get pretty technical on a simple question...  And after reading all that, still no answer!  While I was reading it, I was thinking, most of us air down tires and air up for the way home.  So, it wouldn't matter losing a psi or two inbetween anyways  :?

Offline dunl

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2006, 10:31:16 PM »
Technical?  You have no idea.


I can tell them what year my Mercedes is, and they can tell me what options came on it, and that it has a 617.910 engine, not the 617.950, 617.120, which vacuum lines are on which engine, etc.

They like their stuff.  :lol:
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gsxtacy

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 09:59:00 PM »
nitrogen is a great alternative to air

why?

well... nitorgen or N2 is a gigantic molecule as compared to O2 (oxygen we breathe) of course, there's a whole whack of other crap that goes into your tire when it gets filled with compressed air (some of it eats rubber; imagine that!)  

dunl....21% makes a huge difference!

so not only does nitrogen actually protect and seal the bead and rubber, it dosen't leak nearly as much because it can't fit between the rubber and the wheel.  (dosent have any water molecules in it, so the rim dosen't rust on the interior where the tire overlays it.

Got 31x10.5r15?  normal airdown is around 12 psi with air, so it's about 5 with nitrogen.    because the molecule is larger, it dosen't work itself between the wheel and tire on the bead and pop it off.  

hope that answers your q's :D

4Play

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 09:10:17 PM »
I never realized you can safetly air down MORE with nitrogen...  That is a big bonus I would say!  The ride difference from 25 to 12 psi on the rocky wiparous terrain is significant.  What do you think is the safest psi I could go run on a 33X12.50?  With and without nitrogen?

gsxtacy

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 09:51:20 PM »
I'd probly run it the same or a little higher just to be safe... 5 psi would do me aplenty.

course, my cj5 is prolly lighter than what you drive off road, with all of the custom work etc...

so i think i'd just leave it be at about 5-10 psi.  

but you should experiment... like i said...i don't know your rig.  

if you pop a bead, you know you probly went down too far.   If you run beadlocks, then air down to like .5 psi  :roll:

wish i had fist fulls of cash for beadlocks...
another topic 4 another day

Offline BlackYJ

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2006, 07:32:50 AM »
Quote from: "4Play"
I never realized you can safetly air down MORE with nitrogen...  That is a big bonus I would say!  The ride difference from 25 to 12 psi on the rocky wiparous terrain is significant.  What do you think is the safest psi I could go run on a 33X12.50?  With and without nitrogen?


Depends on the tire and rim size.  If you are running a bogger or swamper you could probably go down to about 7-8 psi on an 8" rim because of the thicker sidewalls, other tires probably around 10 psi.  I have run my SSRs at about 7-8 with no problems but now I go to about 10 psi.  With a 10" rim you will not be able to go down as low
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kwestman

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 03:57:28 PM »
I get frustrated with ignorance, and I'm having a very boring day at work.  So let me clarrify a few points.

1.  There are claims that filling up with N2 reduces pressure fluctuations with temperature changes:  At relatively low pressures (air pressures seen in automotive tires are considered low in the world of science, especially for you off-roaders) N2, O2 and even water vapor will all behave as ideal gases, and follow the ideal gas law (PV=nRT).  Pressure will increase or decrease to the same extent as the temperature increases or decreases regardless of which gas is in the tire. (Even at 300 psi, there is little deviation from ideality.)  Thank you Chem105!

2.  More on the temperature claim: N2 and O2 both have essentially the same specific heat capacity (the ability to resist changes in temperature),  about 1.0 J/gK.  Some will argue the water content of some compressed air is what makes the difference, and it would since the specific heat capacity is double that of the gasses discussed, but it's rare to see water content inside air over 1%.  Even a cloud that's ready to rain is only about 2%.  So to sum it up, your tires will still experiance the same temperature cycles regardless of the gas you use.

3.  Another claim is that Nitrogen will not leak out as easy:  The rate of effusion (or diffusion) of a gas through a porous membrane (tire) depends mostly on the molar mass rather than the molecular diameter.  N2 is lighter than O2 (28 g/mol vs 32 g/mol) so even IF either gas were to effuse out of the tire, nitrogen would do it more quickly anyway.  Luckily, tires are designed not to be porous membranes, and the leaks against the bead are so much more signifigant that they can't really be discussed on the molecular level, so none of this really matters anyway.  Let's put it into perspective, N2 and O2 are 29 and 31nm respectively, we'll call that an average of 30nm.  That's 30/100,000,000 of a milimeter.  Roughly 88,000 times smaller than a human hair.  

4. This idea that molecules of any kind act as some sort of wedge contributing to blown beads is also a little bit rediculous too.  For goodness sake's people, it's 0.0000003 of a mm!  Even IF the nitrogen molecule was considerably bigger than oxygen, it would play no role in preventing a blown bead.  This is purely the mechanical forces of pressure at work.  

5.  Some people claim that the absence of oxygen inside the tire will resist oxidization of the tire:  It's true that oxygen is necissary for oxidation, but I'm not sure if I've ever had a tire wear out from the inside out, so I dont see this as a concern.  Furthermore, the ozone, O3, in the atmosphere, which is a ground level pollutant, will do a great deal more damage to your tires than the O2 inside the tire.  Luckily for us, high levels of O3 are mostly seen in the "smog cities" like Los Angeles.

6.  And just to top it all off, and maybe seal the deal for those of you wtill on the fence with this issue.  Air is 78% nitrogen, and 21% oxygen, and 1% other crap.  So even if you put air in the tire, it's already 78% nitrogen.  And the real kicker is that many of the so called nitrogen generators often only produce 90% nitrogen anyway!  So you're only getting 12% more nitrogen anyway!

This concept is so rediculous it makes my head hurt.
 
I find no reason to believe that N2 is going to produce a "better ride" or "better handling".

The bottom line is that for general passenger car tires or truck tires there is nothing to be gained by using nitrogen rather than air.  The biggest gain will be seen in profits by the companies that sell nitrogen handling equipment and the tire merchants that appeal to ignorant customers.  And who is the biggest loser? Yep, you!

gsxtacy

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2006, 04:34:15 PM »
Hey, i'm not ignorant

Petersern's 4wheel and off road is,  and to P`ewe, apparently ignorance is bliss! when i wrote him about his chart (44s do not need 12 psi on beadlocks) he never returned my mail.

i got all of that from there... including air up and down stuff

personally, i use air too, not nitrogen.  and, yes, unless you're running an extreme rock buggy or a twin 572 powered blown slingshot, then i guess you don't really need nitrogen.

btw, where the hell do you work?


 :twisted:

kwestman

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2006, 08:14:43 PM »
Research at the U of A.  Mechanical Engineering.

gsxtacy

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2006, 08:51:37 PM »
go figure....that job would squirt me off any day!

not because the pay's no good or the hours are crap ( 4 months off!!)

but because all of the University kids i'd hafta put up with!

( i kinda feel your pain, i'm a NDT student @ SAIT)

kwestman

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2006, 09:47:46 PM »
I'm actually a student there...  I'm 22.

But no offence taken, I would hate to have to put up with me all day.

gsxtacy

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Filling tires with nitrogen?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 07:11:08 PM »
LOL!!!!!

sorry about that... :oops:

ya, like i said...it's just petersens i ripped off the info from.  nothing major...

peace