Cleanups: The Government's view...

[90YJGIMP]

Most times in Manitoba alcohol is banned on May long in the provincial parks. We have had incidents here that brought that in place.

Does Alberta already have Provincial Park passes? The kind that hang on the front windsheild mirror? A small yearly fee and one of these tags hanging in the window for you may work. The tags are easily identifiable by the Parks service as each year they are color coded.

Something like that may be a suggestion for you in Alberta for OHV areas. Just making the fee for the pass a little steeper and stiff fines for violators could curb a lot of the bad behavior that is closing your trails. A booklet could also be handed out to those who buy the pass with the rules and penalties listed. So when someone gets caught by the SRD or RCMP they can't plead ignorance as they had the book.

Anyone could buy the pass to access the area and the money could be put toward the trail maintainence and enforcement. The Provincial park passes we have are ussually about $25.00. Increasing that to $50.00 for OHV users may keep some of the bad apples at bay.

[EVOLUTION]

Most times in Manitoba alcohol is banned on May long in the provincial parks. We have had incidents here that brought that in place.

Does Alberta already have Provincial Park passes? The kind that hang on the front windsheild mirror? A small yearly fee and one of these tags hanging in the window for you may work. The tags are easily identifiable by the Parks service as each year they are color coded.

Something like that may be a suggestion for you in Alberta for OHV areas. Just making the fee for the pass a little steeper and stiff fines for violators could curb a lot of the bad behavior that is closing your trails. A booklet could also be handed out to those who buy the pass with the rules and penalties listed. So when someone gets caught by the SRD or RCMP they can't plead ignorance as they had the book.

Anyone could buy the pass to access the area and the money could be put toward the trail maintainence and enforcement. The Provincial park passes we have are ussually about $25.00. Increasing that to $50.00 for OHV users may keep some of the bad apples at bay.

Thats exactly what I was thinking of basing this on... just like the Banff Park passes we get.  We pay a yearly, or daily fee for a single person or a family pass...

All the money would (hopefully) go back to the trails...  

[TJ54]

It seems that I am in the minority on user fees.

If user fees are put in place. How would they be administrated? An annual pass would be no problem, you could pick that up when you renew your licence plates.
How and where would you pick up a weekend pass? The national parks, like Banff, have a manned gate you drive through where you can purchase a pass. The OHV areas don't and it really isn't practical to build and man buildings at all of these areas.

90yjgimp. I don't think there are any Provincial Parks that you need a pass for in Alberta, But pass's are needed for the Federal National parks.
I like the idea of handing out a rule book with the pass.

Will fee's stop the party crowd from going out and raising hell in the ohv areas ?
Maybe, if there is enforcement.

If SRD and the RCMP steps up the enforcement, are we, the responsible users, going to bitch and complain about heavy handed enforcement?
Because we know that one of us will get ticketed for something we feel we shouldn't have
Or are we going to just shutup and pay the fine and consider it part and parcel of the whole wheeling experience. I have heard stories from people who have been to places like Moab in the U.S. They are very strict, if you put a wheel off the authorized trail you will at the very least get talked to by a trail guardian.
Are we still going to whine and complain because we got a ticket for no mudflaps on Maclean Creek trail?

[90YJGIMP]

In our case in Manitoba. Provincial park passes are distributed the same as fishing licenses. At some local conveinience stores and the Parks conservation offices. Weekend and day passes are ussually done at the Provincial and Federal park entrances. I agree that the having a gated booth at OHV areas may be considered inconveineint by the SRD. Here, the money from our Park Passes is used to pay for such employees that do man the booths and maintain the parks.

Enforcement is part and partial to having an OHV pass, it would have to be heavily enforced for it to work. I agree that if it not enforced no one will care and just travel the trail anyway. Example: A local snowmobile club here has winter designated trails. Anyone travelling these trails is required to have a snowpass which covers trail grooming cost and such. Their biggest problem is people who use the trail anyway as it is not enforced enough and the fines are not stiff enough.

The certain violations would have to carry a heavy fine to make anyone think twice about breaking one of the violations. Is it easier to pay for a $50.00 OHV yearly pass or pay $1000.00 if caught without one.

Banning alcohol at certain time does a lot to curb long weekend incidents. People here complained plenty when long weekend bans were put in place, but have accepted it as the damage to our parks and littering has declined. The parks here looked like garbage dumps after long weekends and now its not half as bad.

I agree that user fees suck. Are the trails so much of a right or are they more of a privalige. Its a tough call that up to Albertans, I'm just a guy from Manitoba.

[Spinalguy]

Ian,
when i went to Telico to wheel in their National Forest, there were unmanned booths at all entrances. You self administer your payment, grab the paper and make it visible. Local officers on quads do random checks. Big fines for non compliance.
Very much like most campgrounds we visit here in Alberta. Maclen Creek has one such self administered campground...Fisher Creek campground.
Tom

[Hi Lo Silver]

Ian, funny you should quote my response and then ask if I would support a no booze in random camping areas. I haven't even touched as much as a beer socially for over 15 years. Our club also has a very strict no booze on the trail policy and its adhered to. I also see the effects of booze in users that frequent the trails. I have the next best thing to no respect for those that idulge while in control of a motorized vehicle. I guess from those comments I think you can gather for yourself where I would stand on that issue.

The Moab comment has me baffled though and I;ve seen it stated many times by different people. I've been down there about 8 times now and I can not remember seeing any enforcement on the trails what so ever on any trip. The people down there on the other hand are the ones that would normally mention the fact that you should remain on the trail.

The users are the ones with far more respect for the trails than you see up here by many. Is that education or the fact they have fought for years for the trails they have and most people know they could loose it with the wrong attitude. I just wonder if its really the responsibility of our government or SRD to have to hold peoples hands and teach them proper trail ediquette or if thats something that should come from responsible users. Surely people that wonder off trail to hit a mud hole 10' away should have some common sense to realize that they are probably doing everyone harm. People that drive up and down streams should have the smarts to know that its probably one fo the stupidist things you can do no matter what type of base the river bottom has. If only  they would use those smarts and know that its detrimental to our fight for trails by doing something so senseless.

[Spinalguy]

Gun,
i do not think anyone was talking about drinking on trails. It may be your club policy but it also happens to be everyone's policy as well from responsible users. Wobbly pops are best served in camp. We are referring to an alcohol ban 24/7.

Moab during Easter jeep safari is more patrolled, something we would like on May Long.

And yes you do have to hold people's hand...unfortunately

UNLESS

SRD and RCMP impounded the irresponsible 4x4's, quads and bikes. HUGE fine, no vehicle back and you would see a very quick turn around in behavior.

TK

[Hi Lo Silver]

I give up with forum boards.  :?  I guess you failed to see my point of banning alcohol in any respect would have no issue by me that's for sure.

Holding hands for teaching trail ediquette is not required by the government or ASRD. Common sense and back country respect should be common sense by anybody.

Policing is goverment and ASRD responsibility. I'm in full support of idiots having vehicle confiscated. Running rivers...trucks gone. Crossing rivers responsibly is a different story.

Bogging in wetlands....trucks gone, following the trail and going thru mud holes carefully and responsibly is again a different story.


High user fees equals money to fill in mud bogs and make mud holes passable by high percentage of users. Fencing projects, bridges and so on.
Its not rocket science to have ASRD spot a visible sticker like the Banff Park gates on a rig or not. If there isn't one then sorry but you're just not welcome to use the area.

[01sahara]

Don't give up on forum boards Gunther. Your input was great.

We will not be the ones that get to plan this type of system but if the Gov. reads the comments it might help them in setting up a system that could work. If a user fee or license program was to be implemented in the province it would take this type of discussion of ideas to come up with a good system.  

It was suggested no booze. No problem with me on that one. Most of the established clubs will not tolerate drinking on trail runs so it only comes down to the question of alcohol and camping.  I think random camping will need to be more and more restricted as the population in southern Alberta increases. While random camping is currently the issue that has caused us to loose one of our areas to wheel in it is a separate issue from user fees for OHV user. Maybe the solution is if you want to have a beer around the camp fire stay in an organized camp ground provincial or private. That is what our group did on the July long weekend and it work very well. The extra cost of the campground was fine with me if it keeps the trails open for wheeling.

What I am getting form the posts above is

So a license system would have lots of logistic problems. That’s a given. With any new system it would need to have infrastructure to make it work with the who’s, what, where and how’s worked through. Some people will try to cheat the system but that always happens. The question is would a properly implemented system reduce the impact on the environment and leave responsible users access to trails?  Some of Ian’s points are good ones too consider if planning how a system would best work.

Some of us would be willing to pay a high fee per year while others will be price sensitive. Ok some may loose out on the off road part of the activity but that is part of user fees. The rationing of a finite resource through user fees will reduced the number of users. The question is how much would we want to see it reduced. High fee cost and lots of users will drop out of the hobby.  That would increases the sustainability of the activity and trail system. However, fewer users reduces the size of our combined voices. The level of the fee is a very important point and would have big impact on how a system could or would work.  What level of fee would generate the most funds for enforcement and education? Lots of users paying $50-$100 per year or substantially fewer users paying $500-$1,000 per year. The highest level of funds generated for sustainability of the program might be used as one measure in establishing a balance in how much the fee should be. Other issues should also be considered. I would hope it would be a fee for all motorized use.

It would not work without the enforcement and education part of a program. Without enforcement it would have no impact.  Part of the funds received from any off road license program would need to go to enforcement and education and not into the general revenue of the provincial government.

The input is great. Lets keep the thread running.

[Spinalguy]

Gun,
 i was just clarifying the alcohol issue in how it may of been perceived from your response, no biggie

Yes, they do have to hold our hands was a sarcastic attempt bringing to light that everything we have tried has failed as more and more 'idiots' come out to play every year. Even with internet education, the pics and videos still show ALLOWED but irresponsible use. What i mean is playing in mudholes near staging areas. With no rules and regulations set up and NO ENFORCEMENT of these activities, the user feels it is allowed, which it is, but it hurts us so bad public perception wise. Set up the rules and regs (not like GAMP, a complete and absurd set of trail designations) and than enforce them HEAVILY! :twisted:

TK

[TJ54]

Gunther the alcohol comment was not directed at you or the FWS in any way whatsoever, I know the club has a strict no alcohol policy on the trail.
My apologies. Sometimes I type before I think, I should have put those comments in a seperate post.

Just for the record i don't drink either, I had a couple of beers about two years ago,that's been about it since a new years resolution jan 1 1990, the only resolution that has ever worked for me

So a total alcohol ban is fine by me as well. Our club has a strict no alcohol on the trail rule as well.

I've never been to moab, that is just stories I have heard, first hand though, can't think who at the moment, it will come to me.

[TJ54]

Cut and pasted from a previous post

Alot of people enjoy a cold beer at the campfire at the end of the day? would you support all ohv areas as being alcohol free. That would make it easier for the RCMP to confiscate booze at their checkstops they have on the long weekend. If everyone was sober that would solve a lot of issues. The grad parties would have to go somewhere else.

My daughter is going into grade 12 next year. I talked to her about this years grad party. I was quite surprised to find out that parents load up the kids and take them to an area to party it up. That way the party doesn't get uninvited guests as the kids don't know where they are going.
Is that what happened at IG? Was the kids parents that took them to an OHV area?

Anyway back on topic.
If it meant keeping OHV areas open to 4x4's would you( the 4 wheeling community) support a total alcohol ban in the off roading areas.  :?:

[Spinalguy]

Anyway back on topic.
If it meant keeping OHV areas open to 4x4's would you( the 4 wheeling community) support a total alcohol ban in the off roading areas.  :?:

My answer is simply...NO. i do not equate the problems of 4x4 bans with alcohol consumption. i see the problem as where 4x4's choose to play as opposed to choosing trail runs. Banning alcohol will not stop 4x4's and quads from doing OFF TRAIL skegs,  mudholes, etc.

 If i could pay to camp and have my beer than i would do that. If we eliminated random camping and put in paid designated camping, i think that would solve the problems. No user fees as the $ from camping could be put back into the system.(well at least a percentage).

My camping/wheelin/riding/racing experience includes a bevy at the end of the day. i enjoy a few around the fire. The 'idiot' factor could be held more accountable in a paid setting.

However, if it was a 100% ban on alcohol than i would not support it. i have many years left to enjoy the backcountry and i really enjoy a bevy at the end of a day.

Do i need an alcoholic beverage? No.

Is it part of my OHV adventure experience? Yes. i can't wait to have a cold beer after i finish a race. It tastes so darn good. i deserve it too.

Personally, what i see as the downfall to 4x4's and quads specifically is not booze and behavior but stupid decisions regarding choices of wheelin spots. Not trails but all the holes and skegs near camp areas, access roads and staging areas. We could learn a lot from the bike community. No one ever sees them. They ride nowhere near sight lines.

Removing booze will not stop the public sightings of irresponsible 4x4 and quad behavior. It will get rid of teens and grad parties though.

Good night, i have a race to travel to in Racehorse Creek. i have a few cold ones for the experience.

TK

 

[kln]

To be honest, I'm getting tired of seeing these "how to fix things" threads.  Don't get me wrong, the ideas are great (well some of them anyways  :shock: ) but none of them will provide us with a solution that will work.

This is the government's problem, not ours. The lack of enforcement is the root cause. Implementing user fees, restricting alcohol, requiring permits, etc will not solve the problem at this point in time (or ever for that fact). Enforcement will be required to support the ideas presented in this thread. If the government is not providing enough enforcement now, how are they going to handle enforcing more?

We need to start focusing on this base problem. There is nothing you can suggest that will work, or get us out of this predicament, or make things better until we get adequate enforcement. We have a police service in the populated areas that we live in. Why? Because there are certain individuals that need to be put in check (or put away) for the greater good of the population. What makes the backcountry any different?

My correspondence with the government on the new Land Use Framework is also giving me the impression that adequate enforcement, again, will not be addressed. This is something all user groups should be pushing for, not just the 4x4 community.

IMO the lack of adequate enforcement is the only reason we are in the situation we are in today. Notice that I didn't mention education. Why? Because its out there, its always been out there, and it will continue to be out there.

Any form of recreation done responsibly should not cause problems.

kln

Fred: "Lets go out and trash the backcountry this weekend."
Bill: "We need to stop and get our permit on the way out of town."
Fred: "K."

[EVOLUTION]

Ok, to further add to this topic, because it has been a very good one so far...

kln:  Dont you think that ENFORCEMENT leads to EDUCATION?  I think the two go hand in hand & we need BOTH.

You say education is out there?  How many people who use the backcountry know what the difference between a Riparian area and a wetland is?  How many people know WHY it is not ok to use deadfall for fires?  How many people know why the Department of Fisheries and other environmental groups want the trails shut down?

What sort of general education do people have about our areas & how to properly respect them?  Not very much... my own family member thought it was ok to go ripping through skeg on his bike until I EDUCATED him as to why it is not ok...

If you ask my opinion... education AND enforcement are lacking & this is where we are going wrong.   I was told a few years ago that there aren't many rangers working because they can't afford them.  We are the richest province in North America and they can't afford to pay a ranger?  Maybe thats where money from userfees will come in handy... I don't know.

On that note... you think the clearcutting in Mclean is bad now... just wait.  This is just the beginning to the plan they already have in place.

http://www.nowpublic.com/maclean_creek_clear_cut