Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: NoBiggies on January 24, 2012, 09:06:03 PM
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Carbureted 360 in a tj.
Anyone in here done it?
Any tips what's everything in going to need?
I've got the engine just need to buy t case and transmission. Driveshafts and maybe some differentials.
Slow going to collect all the goodies over the next six months I say.
Maybe a loner vehicle if I can find one for a good price.
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I would look at companies like advanced adapters and maybe look at their swap kits. I foresee a wiring nightmare going from an injected computer controlled truck to a carb, not to mention the advantages of injection vs carbs offroad.
Couple of question ,.. What are your end goals? Why the swap? Are you planning on axle upgrades? Original motor let the smoke out?
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My goals is still in the air almost like every other jeep enthusiast out there. I am just looking at option. And seeing what's out there.
I have always been a fan of carbureted engines. My transmission is going. I can feel it. So I was looking at maybe a aw4 transmission and a buddy and I were talking about engine swaps and what not. He said he has a good 360 tore a part waiting to be brought back a live. With some upgrades here and there. But thanks for the advice.
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Interested in this as well - have a 401 sitting in the corner and keep thinking it could end up in one of my TJ's. Especially if my better half follows through and convinces me to put the stroker in her jeep.
I don't think wiring would be an issue - shouldn't need a lot of wires for a carb setup - maybe 4 or 5.
For carb I've been thinking about a Holley truck avenger.
I'm thinking the challenging part would be exhaust - not sure if anyone makes conversion headers for AMC V8 in TJ - but then I haven't started looking yet - worst case they'd be old school fenderwell.
I've collected a few tranny and Tcase options including NV4500 w/D300 and SM465 w/241 - also some AMC bellhousings to be machined to adapt the trannys.
Driveshafts - that's a given and they can be a requirement with most axle swaps anyhow.
My reasons are: 1. cuz I have it sitting around, 2. cuz it would be different, 3. cuz I like a challenge, 4. cuz I don't know when to stop, 5. cuz cuz just becuz
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Ooo Had a muncie 465 in my old Chevy and that thing was bomb proof. something like 6.5:1 in low as well! That thing would crawl over just about anything :D Pity it was only 2 wheel drive and was scrapped for a th350 when my clutch went.. Im sure tho if that transmission was still around, it would still be goin today.
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Interested in this as well - have a 401 sitting in the corner and keep thinking it could end up in one of my TJ's. Especially if my better half follows through and convinces me to put the stroker in her jeep.
I don't think wiring would be an issue - shouldn't need a lot of wires for a carb setup - maybe 4 or 5.
For carb I've been thinking about a Holley truck avenger.
I'm thinking the challenging part would be exhaust - not sure if anyone makes conversion headers for AMC V8 in TJ - but then I haven't started looking yet - worst case they'd be old school fenderwell.
I've collected a few tranny and Tcase options including NV4500 w/D300 and SM465 w/241 - also some AMC bellhousings to be machined to adapt the trannys.
Driveshafts - that's a given and they can be a requirement with most axle swaps anyhow.
My reasons are: 1. cuz I have it sitting around, 2. cuz it would be different, 3. cuz I like a challenge, 4. cuz I don't know when to stop, 5. cuz cuz just becuz
Honestly you couldn't have said it any better.
I don't know %100 of my reason other then I loved this old dodge my mom had when I was young.
That thing was a tank.
My buddy has this engine lying there. Ready to be assembled. And when all said and done about 350 ponys.
I'm going to do some more digging and hear what others have to say.
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What about a stand alone efi? The wiring concerns were more to do with the chassis, just tossing thoughts out.
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Honestly I'm not going out every weekend wheeling and wen I do it is not that hardcore.
I don't do such steep hits the jeep is pointing up. And yeah eventually I would love to do a efi fuel injection kit.
But it is a good call and thanks for the tip. I'll keep everyone posted and maybe a build thread when I truly decided what I want to do with the jeep and when I do it.
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I have heard that a chev FI system can be adapted to an AMC V8.
My thought would be one step at a time. Get it in and running the easy way with a carb and then if there are issues consider upgrading to FI. My biggest issue with FI is I'd have to learn more to make it work and my brain is already pretty full or I'd have to pay someone else to set it up and that just goes against my grain.
The other option to keep in the back of your mind is propane - dual fuel system and you have the best of both worlds.
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I have heard that a chev FI system can be adapted to an AMC V8.
My thought would be one step at a time. Get it in and running the easy way with a carb and then if there are issues consider upgrading to FI. My biggest issue with FI is I'd have to learn more to make it work and my brain is already pretty full or I'd have to pay someone else to set it up and that just goes against my grain.
The other option to keep in the back of your mind is propane - dual fuel system and you have the best of both worlds.
In the past I help set up a GM 7747 ECM and GM throttle body , but that was old chip and memcal systems. There used to be a site DIY-efi.org that walked you through all the steps and systems. Also look at the old dodge turbo ecm mods or mega squirt DIY systems
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I have heard that a chev FI system can be adapted to an AMC V8.
My thought would be one step at a time. Get it in and running the easy way with a carb and then if there are issues consider upgrading to FI. My biggest issue with FI is I'd have to learn more to make it work and my brain is already pretty full or I'd have to pay someone else to set it up and that just goes against my grain.
The other option to keep in the back of your mind is propane - dual fuel system and you have the best of both worlds.
I've talked to my dad about the propane systems cause he's installed more then he can count and has had more then a few.. Nowadays the kits are too expensive to make it worthwhile and in something like a jeep you wouldn't be able to run much of a tank for it - thats going off what he said because I know you can only fill propane to about 80% capacity and in pickups you normally need to run a fairly decent tank to make it worthwhile
Edit; and you have to be careful where you park with a propane vehicle as well
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why you gotta watch parking with propane? I know about parkades and propane heavier then air. Just curious about the rest.
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Carbureted 360 in a tj.
Anyone in here done it?
Any tips what's everything in going to need?
I've got the engine just need to buy t case and transmission. Driveshafts and maybe some differentials.
Slow going to collect all the goodies over the next six months I say.
Maybe a loner vehicle if I can find one for a good price.
Just look for a written off grand with a v8 in it, and take the tranny and tcase. As well as the eng. If it hasn't changed all small blocks use the same bolt pattern for the tranny, and all BB are the same. ( at least that's the way it is with my muscle car). Plus the when your looking for parts it is a bit easier to find, if you have to talk to the counter folks at auto parts stores.
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why you gotta watch parking with propane? I know about parkades and propane heavier then air. Just curious about the rest.
In parkades you do because it is heavier then air and also the exhaust fans built into them doesn't detect propane like it will detect gas and diesel exhaust if you ever have your vehicle on a ferry too on propane and they find out they can lay charges if there's an issue (my dad was telling me a story on that one)
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I've thought about it but I'm not to hardcore wheeler yet. SO I'm thinking I'm going to do it. It'll work out.
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In parkades you do because it is heavier then air and also the exhaust fans built into them doesn't detect propane like it will detect gas and diesel exhaust if you ever have your vehicle on a ferry too on propane and they find out they can lay charges if there's an issue (my dad was telling me a story on that one)
Did you read my full post? Or just the first sentence? ;-)
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Dual fuel - propane tank and gas tank.
Propane less power and smaller tank - use it for hills
Gas more power and existing tank - use it for everywhere else
Lots of old propane parts kicking around in junk yards - I've picked up setups for carb and efi for next to nothing.
As for parkades - haven't seen one yet on a trail ;)
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Dual fuel - propane tank and gas tank.
Propane less power and smaller tank - use it for hills
Gas more power and existing tank - use it for everywhere else
Lots of old propane parts kicking around in junk yards - I've picked up setups for carb and efi for next to nothing.
As for parkades - haven't seen one yet on a trail ;)
Haha. I like that response. But yet totally true.
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Wheres the barf emote when you need one...........
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Wheres the barf emote when you need one...........
???
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???
I think it's a lot more weight for what you get out of the 1970's technology engines.
Better options exist. Just because you enjoyed your moms old dodge ;D don't get stuck on that as the only option.
Also, don't confuse dodge vs. amc 360's as they are completely different.
If you have it sitting on the floor already it makes it a little more worthwhile.
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Yeah it's sitting there waiting. My buddy figures about 350 horse.
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Some people build rat rods and some people buy corvettes and vipers. Each to their own.
Same idea why put in a 4.7 stroker when you could install a hemi - owners choice ::)
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I've only seen carbs run on offroad rigs due to lack of knowledge, funds, common sense, or a combonation of the three.
With the exception of mud racings, and even then its still a disadvantage, carburators have been obsolete in offroading for nearly 20 years.
Next we will have a thread started on quarter elipticals versus 4 links...................
To me there is a significant diference between to each their own, and crap that just dont make sense nowadays.
Honestly, to purchase the bracketry, do the fabrication, fit adapters, modify driveline, etc etc, all to put a 30 year old carburated boat anchor in a Tj is one big excercise in futility.
Seriously, would someone a bit more politically correct just jump inhere and save this guy some grief already.
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bill i think that was politically correct
i would of just said
CANT FIX STUPID
if he wants to install that engine he mine as well put some wooden wheels under it and have some horses pull him up any hill he comes across
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I've only seen carbs run on offroad rigs due to lack of knowledge, funds, common sense, or a combonation of the three.
Too bad - they're lots of fun - nothing better than the opportunity to bond with others while fixing a carb'd rig on the trail. Maybe you're too choosey who you wheel with.
CANT FIX STUPID
So sad
Really - you guys are entitled to your opinions.
As I said close to the beginning of this thread I'm interested in this as I have a 401 sitting in the corner. Not sure what to do with it other than I'm darn sure it's not going to become a boat anchor. One option is it will go in a TJ, or a JK ;), another option is it will go in a rat rod jeep, or maybe I'll sell it to one of the many people trying to convince me to let it go (if it's no good I wonder why so many people want it). Either way I'm interested in hearing what's involved to make this work, not why someone wouldn't do it.
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I did a 5.2 Magnum NV3500 5 speed in my 97 TJ. I paid $300 for engine and trans from a 98 Ram roll over. Used Advance Adapter mounts (worth every penny). Did the wiring myself, it's not that hard. After I sold the original 2.5 and trans I'm up a few bucks. Great swap.... runs and drives awesome. A few of the guy here have seen it....you can ask them how it turned out. In my opinion, it's worth the wiring to have EFI. Runs great and I get 23 to 25 mpg on the highway. 25,000 kms on the swap so far. If you're interested in a manual instead of auto I'm going to have one available soon with the ECM....
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i have a carbureted chevy 350 in my CJ. It is a quadrajet carb. Runs like a dream onroad in all elevation changes. i did wheel it and went up a steep cutline. i was freaked out as it was the first 'test'. It ran like a dream up that hill.
Never faulted up or down hills.
However, if it had come with fuel injection, i would be happier.
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i have a carbureted chevy 350 in my CJ. It is a quadrajet carb. Runs like a dream onroad in all elevation changes. i did wheel it and went up a steep cutline. i was freaked out as it was the first 'test'. It ran like a dream up that hill.
Never faulted up or down hills.
However, if it had come with fuel injection, i would be happier.
I have heard this run and I agree it runs like a dream. The 350 small block has always been a great swap into the wranglers. I have even been told its easier to swap a small block Chevy rather than a 4.0 if you have the 4cyl wrangler.
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Direct quote from
Best Off Road Truck Engine Swaps
What To Shoehorn Into Your Off-Road Rig
From the December, 2009 issue of Off-Road
By Agustin Jimenez
AMC Third Gen V-8
This is one of those oddball engines that are not as mainstream as the other big three's engines but nonetheless it is a great engine that offers monstrous torque. They can be had for practically nothing and if you treat them right, they can live a long life and turn your slow Jeep into a dirt rocket.
Displacement: 304ci, 360ci and 401ci
What they came in: They were produced from '70 to '91 and were available in the Jeep CJ7, Wagoneer, Cherokee, Grand Wagoneer, J-10 and J-20 trucks
Horsepower: 125 to 255 hp
Torque: 220 to 435 lb-ft
Features: Dog leg exhaust ports which build more power than the previous designs, larger piston bores paired with shorter strokes for gobs of torque
Benefits: Inexpensive to purchase at a wrecking yard or online, not a small block Chevy, keeps your Jeep AMC powered, awesome lumpy exhaust note, produces enough power and torque to lift a 39-inch tire off the left front of a CJ-7 under hard launches
Drawbacks: Obsolete parts that can be expensive to repair or replace, stock axles and drivetrain can break under the torque of the AMC V8.
Make It Better: Install a big lumpy cam along with a set of Edelbrock AMC Performer RPM aluminum cylinder heads.
What to use it in: Any Jeep CJ7, Wrangler YJ or TJ that needs to turn massive tires and calls for a V8 that isn't a Chevy or Dodge power plant, would make a great engine choice for a class 3 desert racing Jeep
Wanna read the entire article - check it out here
http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0912or_best_off_road_truck_engine_swaps/viewall.html
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Thats all great if you are outfitting an older rig, and while still not very practical, at least its feasable.
Going backwards in time and carburating an already fuel injected vehicle is just dumb. The losses in efficiency, and reliability alone do not make it a worthy swap in a wheeling rig.
In a resto of an older rig, or rat rig its an entirely different scenario. Those rigs are not built to wheel hard or frequently, nor are they typically daily driven.
As for the article, other then sheer stupidity, and brand loyalty, there is absolutely no reason to ever dump money into an amc motor as a "search out and swap" candidate. They are heavy, expensive to modify, and parts selection is very limited. If someone is determined to drop a carbed 8 into something, SBC's and SBF's are without a doubt the obvious choice.
As for late model wranglers, small block dodges are just a no brainer. They are fuel injected, and easily adapted into wranglers. You keep your wiring, your gauge cluster, and your transmission and t-case.
This whole conversation reminds me of my red neck neighbor up the street that wanted to put a carbed 350 in his 04 chev half ton when he blew the motor. Because he didnt know how to adjust fuel injection, and therefore it was "stupid". ::)
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one thing about the amc 360. it was never put in a cj width vehicle with a drivers side front differental. I tried it in my commando and the oil filter and exhaust manifold want to be in the same place as the frame rail on the passenger side. on the drivers side the np208 tcase wants to be in that frame rail. So in my case im going back to a passenger drop front axle and a 203/ 300 setup. Steering may also be an issue
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In a resto of an older rig, or rat rig its an entirely different scenario. Those rigs are not built to wheel hard or frequently, nor are they typically daily driven.
Congratulations....that right there is the biggest load of BS I have EVER seen on the CJA site.....and I've been here a while.
Where did you get THAT idea? From the limited knowledge you have of older rigs, or just the incredible knowledge of the few that you have come in contact with? There's a whole other new world out there I'm guessing you haven't seen....
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"One man with conviction will overwhelm a hundred who have only opinions" W. Churchill
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:popcorn:
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Congratulations....that right there is the biggest load of BS I have EVER seen on the CJA site.....and I've been here a while.
Where did you get THAT idea? From the limited knowledge you have of older rigs, or just the incredible knowledge of the few that you have come in contact with? There's a whole other new world out there I'm guessing you haven't seen....
for christ sakes, cry much dunl?
Ya, because you and a handfull of others take the odd rig thats 40 years old back and forth to work, and on the odd sunday run it somehow makes it typical?
Get over yourself.
Old rigs are anything but typical on the trail, and they are not even remotely in the realm of hardcore wheeling.
Retro rigs are awesome, and to each their own as to what they do with them, but who are you trying to kid with this butt hurt act because I point out the obvious?
jesus.
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for christ sakes, cry much dunl?
Ya, because you and a handfull of others take the odd rig thats 40 years old back and forth to work, and on the odd sunday run it somehow makes it typical?
Get over yourself.
Old rigs are anything but typical on the trail, and they are not even remotely in the realm of hardcore wheeling.
Retro rigs are awesome, and to each their own as to what they do with them, but who are you trying to kid with this butt hurt act because I point out the obvious?
jesus.
Hey, I'm not the one crying. You're the one with the narrow mind who thinks that just because here in Alberta you don't see many of these rigs, that they "are not built to wheel hard or frequently, nor are they typically daily driven."
Give me an example as to WHY older rigs are not in the realm of hardcore wheeling. And if you mean "truggy" type wheeling, then I would guess most newer rigs aren't in that category either.
And you think I'm touchy - who is the one that goes ballistic whenever anyone doesn't agree with them? Me thinks your the one who needs to get over yourself....just because you have an opinion, it doesn't make it a fact. If you think it does, show me some hard fatcs here. Put your facts where your outspoken mouth is.
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Propriety type people are so annoying.
heaven forbid you ever mention their particular is not perfect.
You know what dunl, there are clubs on the internet for pretty much anything you can think about. That doesnt mean that just because they exist, it makes those activities, typical of the norm.
Their are unimog sites and clubs, and there are guys that daily drive them, and wheel them. That does not make them practical, or typical among the average wheeling crowd.
Most reto rigs are not wheeled hard due to several reason. the suspension tech doesnt allow for it, the engine tech doesnt allow for it, but most of all, in most cases the owners goals are not to performance wheel the crap out of their restored classic rig.
I've worked on several resto rigs for friends, and none of them would want me to lead them on any of the hardcore runs that I do. Not only would they probably not make it, but they also dont want to risk damage to their classic rig they put so much time and effort into to restore.
There are exceptions to every rule, but to honestly consider old carburated leaf sprung rigs as what's "common" on the trails, and to think they are technically up to the task of wheeling along side fuel injected linked rigs is insanely niave.
This is just fact. It has nothing to do with opinion.
You want my opinion, I love old rigs, the character they possess, and the simplicity that comes with them. But just because I like them, doesnt mean I kid myself about what they can do, or how common they are on the trail, or on the road.
By they way, you can read here until you are blue in the face. You will never see me go off on anyone based on opinion. Thats where people on the net always get confused. The only time I rip on someone is when facts are explained to them, and they try to argue against facts using an uninformed opinion.
Just to recap so you are clear on this conversation.
Opinion = I like old rigs
fact = old rigs are not a common theme on the trail, and are not as technically capable as rigs with modern equipment
And last but not least, converting a currently fuel injected vehicle to a carburator is just stupid. I mean, that is what this covnersasion was all about until every guy in here that ever made love to a carburator had their feelings hurt ::)
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Seems you forgot what you actually posted, so here it is again:
Those rigs are not built to wheel hard or frequently, nor are they typically daily driven.
The part I take issue with is that they are not built to wheel hard, or frequently. Now if you are talking about simply restoration rigs that are built as a classic rig for show purposes, then sure, perhaps people are not going to wheel them as hard as an older rig built for wheeling. And as I stated before, just because most of the older rigs that are restored around here are used as classics, doesn't mean that everyone uses them that way.
However, it also doesn't mean they are not as capable as some of the newer rigs.
Propriety type people are so annoying.
heaven forbid you ever mention their particular is not perfect.
Not sure what you're talking about here....my Willys jeeps, the TJ, or the 03 Grand Cherokee? Don't try to pigeonhole me - my particular is a jeep...old or new. There's lots of newer rigs that (when it's finished), I'd put my 2A up against in many situations against a newer rig, and there's situations where a newer jeep would do better.
Depends on a lot of things.
And last but not least, converting a currently fuel injected vehicle to a carburator is just stupid. I mean, that is what this covnersasion was all about until every guy in here that ever made love to a carburator had their feelings hurt
Some people like to build things because they can. Nothing wrong with putting a carbed engine into an older vehicle just for the challenge of it. Not everyone has to do the normal thing, and they shouldn't be ridiculed just because it's not your cup of tea.
Bnine's opinion = old rigs are not a common theme on the trail, and are not as technically capable as rigs with modern equipment
And just to be clear....I fixed the above for you. ;)
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No dunl, just because you dont want something to be true, doesnt make it any less fact.
There are close to a 100 members in this club, and I am one of less then 5 that own a jeep older then 25 years.
Everyone that wheels always thinks they wheel their crap hard, until they go out with someone that actually does. The day I see a leafed carbed cj on 33's walk double up as easily as a linked TJ is the day I will eat my works.
Welsy's yota on 39's couldnt follow me up that run because of his leaf springs alone, but a stretched and linked sammi on 33's can walk it and has on several occasions.
Propriety based individuals are narrow minded guys like you that take very biased view point on things simply because its what you run. Then get ultra defensive when anyone mentions the inherant weaknesses associated with their products. They leave logic behind, and simply argue for the sake of argueing because they ego and pride wont allow them to just accept reality.
You are no different then the poor bastard that spent 5 grand on a RE long arm at national and pimps it on the internet as the best suspension in the world because its what he spent his money on. Whenever someone tries to objectively explain the difference to him, he gets defensive and starts to cry.
Like yourself.
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And at the point where you can't hold a conversation and debate without making it personal and immature, that's where I stop.
You have yourself a good day. ;)
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Just call it as I see it dunl. Havnt seen you post anything other then snivling dribble since you got in here. Once faced with facts you go boo hoo and take your ball home.
Have fun crying in the corner. You never should have poked your head in here in the first place.
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Hey!
OK to attack ideas.... But no need to attack the person....
Good point on fuel injection being the most common now....
Carbs can be taken apart and rebuilt in the field.... Real hard to do that with a 4L that gets a fuel issue on the trail.
Greg
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Hey!
OK to attack ideas.... But no need to attack the person....
Good point on fuel injection being the most common now....
Carbs can be taken apart and rebuilt in the field.... Real hard to do that with a 4L that gets a fuel issue on the trail.
Greg
Did you feel left out or something? couldnt let the two month old sword fight in the gas station bathroom die a proper death?
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Did not look at the dates posted, but I think my advice still stands.
Your ideas on carb verses injection are valid.
If I could suggest that you have an mature member here assist you on putting forth your ideas without causing ill will toward you.
Unfortunately, I am not in the position to do so, as I am very well known as someone who pisses off people that think highly of themselves.
No such thing as an Irish diplomat.
All the best!
Greg