Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: brianrh on July 19, 2013, 10:40:24 PM
-
I didn't break anything... mostly because I couldn't budge a damned thing.
My rig is 2007 and I don't think it's changed in any way shape or form since the original owner purchased it, had it lifted and drove it around Cochrane for 5 1/2 years.
All I wanted to do was a little toe-in adjustment, but I could not budge the 'knurled adaptor' at all.
"3. Firmly grab the tie-rod’s knurled adjuster and rotate it a little bit at a time taking measurements along the way. If you're Jeep sees a lot of water, mud or salt, you may find it necessary to spray down the threads with some penetrating oil and use a pair of vicegrips to help turn the adjuster. Ideally, you'll want to have approximately 1/16" of toe-in. You should not exceed 1/8" as anything more than that will be too much and that'll your tires to wear poorly. "
I have about 1/4" of an inch of toe out. :-( Looks like it'll wait until sometime next week when I take it to someone with bigger tools than myself, and maybe a torch to heat things up a bit if needed.
Any comments, input, advice, recommended aftermarket straight up replacements?
Cheers,
Brian
-
Penetrating oil. Heat. Cursing may help a bit too.
-
Don't forget to loosen the clamp bolt first, clean any dirt out from around the adjuster, penetrate (with fluid ::)) and let it break he rust down, use heat but don't go too crazy, just enough heat to break the rust loose. And a medium to large pipe wrench is a good tool to use. If it breaks just bolt the clamp down and buy an outer tie rod end. Then you can fight with replacing the tie rod end....
Or avoid all the hassle and let a shop deal with it... ;D
-
Okay... Cheap N cheerful way to get heat? Propane plumbers torch acceptable/reasonable instead of an oxy/acet setup?
Favourite penetrating oils? What's your 'sure thing' when it comes to pen. oil?
-
A propane torch kit from princess auto, or the yellow bottle should be fine as well. Any parts store penetrating fluid should work. The Gunk brand has some good stuff.
-
I use Weasel P1ss. Seriously....I can't remember the brand, but any fitter or boilermaker that's done work in petrochemical plants will identify the stuff as Weasel P1ss. In case the name didn't give it away, the stuff stinks.
-
PB blaster is my choice of penetrant,or wd40 if that runs out. And as hps said use a monkey wrench to get the sleeve to turn. Good luck!
-
Okay was able to get tie rod moving. And drag link works as expected. I think it's a bit of track bar time next. Going wheeling tomorrow and booking the rig in for a proper alignment this week.
-
Replaced trackbar with jks heavy duty adjustable and attempted alignment. Thanks to the folks at broken axle. Thank you. :-)
Considering replacement of all control arms with adjustable. Or maybe cheaping out and replacing all the bushings and getting a another alignment. Though that's a third of the way to and adjustable set if I do the bushing replacement part myself. Probably on half the cost with beer and help.
In other news front axle seal, drivers side needs done. Dripping a little on the tire/floor. Can I just stuff an axel housing seal on the end for a couple hundred and ignore the internal seal ... For now...
RCV axels are so nice ... And pricey and I still need to replace the seal. Friggy heck.
Cheap - bushings and internal and external seals
Nice - adjustable control arms.seals inner and outer and rcv axels...
Did I mention the ears on my u joints are elongating and the recent set of ujoints were spot welded to keep in place - that's why I'm on about rcv axels at all, cursed big tires on dana44s on 80000 km
Ujoints and track bar done with a little dose of professional assessment...
What do we do with the next $1000-1500...?
Ultimately I want the rig able to run true and straight at 150kph on asphalt and over just about anything out wheeling in 4low.
(/somewhat crazed idealistic rant)
-
If you want to drive at 150pkh in a Jeep, buy an Grand Cherokee SRT8, because everything else that Jeep makes is going to be so-so at that speed. If you want to have something that 's well behaved and capable at highway speeds but rock-solid off road, then your JK should be fine.
I don't know if there's an outer axle seal that will do the job on the JK axles. I do know that RCV axles rock - tough, and you get nice smooth power all the way through the whole steering range - no crow hopping.
-
The axle tube sleeves we install have an outer axle seal. The sleeves, gussets and RCV shafts make the front end bomb proof. The only thing better is a new housing from currie, dynatrac or teraflex. Adjustable arms will help dial in your suspension and alignment specs. I think your front tires are worn a little odd because your toe setting was a little out too. Something to keep an eye on.
-
Do the sleeves adress the issue of limited surface area where the tube meets the diff housing? Yes, sleeving the tubes makes the tube stronger, but the smaller OD on the JK tubes means that there's also a weak spot where those tubes meet the pumpkin.
Sleeved tubes = better than stock tubes, and way easier, cheaper, and less invasive than a full truss - but understand what you're getting and what the intended use of your rig is.
-
Do the sleeves adress the issue of limited surface area where the tube meets the diff housing? Yes, sleeving the tubes makes the tube stronger, but the smaller OD on the JK tubes means that there's also a weak spot where those tubes meet the pumpkin.
Sleeved tubes = better than stock tubes, and way easier, cheaper, and less invasive than a full truss - but understand what you're getting and what the intended use of your rig is.
They don't ad surface area to he area where it joins the centre section. A truss system helps spread the load across both tubes. Trusses have to be welded properly or the heat will bend the housing. Welding to the centre section is difficult and even done properly has no guarantee's it won't crack. Dave has inner sleeves and outer tube sleeves and it seems over kill and almost too much heat from welding. But it's holding up fine.
A larger outside diameter tube is the ideal, aftermarket housings use 3-4" tubes that are thicker too. So many options. I just recommend doing something before the current axle tubes bend. Big tires and hard wheeling leads to bent tubes... :-\
-
While wheeling today 'something' changed and my steering wheel ended up 30-45 degrees from center. Oddly, the Jeep is tracking a straight line. Though the ESP was very upset about it. And once the ESP gave up trying on the way home it was the nicest drive I've had so far! Recentered steering wheel when I dropped off my copilot. Man his ol lady seemed annoyed to see us with wrenches.... I wonder if we were late.... :-) any way... ESP lights reset (went off and stayed off) on the way to the car wash. Managed to make the check engine light come on spraying out under the hood. Battery is discon now pending a wait and reconnect.
-
The axle tube sleeves we install have an outer axle seal. The sleeves, gussets and RCV shafts make the front end bomb proof. The only thing better is a new housing from currie, dynatrac or teraflex. Adjustable arms will help dial in your suspension and alignment specs. I think your front tires are worn a little odd because your toe setting was a little out too. Something to keep an eye on.
I think I'll flip the almost new rears tires onto the front end in the next couple days and see how it feels this week. All of the existing control arms are in really good shape, so I might cheap out and do inspect, replace bushings perhaps and try another alignment before going to adjustable arms.
The toe setting was probably more my doing than anything and that was only the day before it came to you so I'm not too worried about the wear.
Oh... Now I need to read up on axle sleeves.... Sigh :-)
-
Alright. Wheels is centered. ;D 3 trips around the block and back to the garage to adjust one way or the other and get it in the sweet spot. I figure I'm within +/- 2° of center. I guess a $185 procal would let me say that I'm exactly at 0° and let the rig know I was on 35s, but it's not going to know anything about the 3"+ lift that's changed the center of gravity of the rig any way. :-(
So, experience folks. How do I start minimizing the lifted w/ 35s wiggles that I experience in the every day asphalt driving to and from work, the mall, Costco/Walmart/CanTire, etc... out on the highway it runs pretty nice up to 120-130... Am I really back to adjustable control arms, yet again to dial the front and rear axle alignment. Can I get away with half a kit? Maybe all lowers and just do new poly bushings on the uppers...? Ugh... $1200 for control arms just rots me. And then an alignment afterward...
-
Provided that you don't have mechanical issues in your suspension (and running nicely on the highway up to 130kph suggests that things are torqued properly and nothing is too far out of whack) , I'm thinking that your "wiggles" are probably three things:
#1. More rubber = more force. When those 35's hit a bump/pothole/whatever in the road, there's more rubber hitting asphalt. That means more force being exerted on the tire than there would be on the 32's that your JK came with. When the tires get pushed on by things like potholes, you'll probably feel it a little bit more than you did with 32's. This is won't really go away until you go the Hydro steering setup - but it's not a big issue.
#2. If you are running a 3" lift with stock control arms, you're probably sitting at 2 or 3 degrees of caster. That means that the steering system does not return to center on it's own as well as the stock steering system. This is one of the reasons that most complete lift include control arms (or drop brackets for frame side control arm mounts). The good news is that for the small caster tweak that you're looking at doing, either a set of front upper or front lower control arms can probably get you back to a "happy" number for caster - somewhere around 5 degrees. Most people normally describe a lack of caster as the steering feeling "flighty".
#3. You've changed the geometry of your steering system. The perfect system has the track bar and drag link completely parallel, and perfectly horizontal. If your lift included an adjustable track bar instead of a track bar bracket, then your drag link and track bar should still be parallel (but not horizontal). If your lift kit included a track bar bracket, then your drag link and track bar are probably no longer parallel - and this can cause you to feel a whole lot of bump steer and in general will make the Jeep have craptacular road manners. If you hit a speed bump straight on (both tires hit it at the same time) and your steering wheel jerks to the left then you're experiencing bump steer.
-
Thanks wsquared. I've got a brand new adjustable trackbar since my last alignment at broken axel, however I don't believe things are ideally horiontal or parallel to one another. Will look close this evening. I think they are close but yah... I'll have to look into the hydro steer more, I'm not particularly happy with how either my previous or my current jeep steering feels. The laundry list of todo items is a bit daunting sometimes. Lots to learn.
-
1200
Alright. Wheels is centered. ;D 3 trips around the block and back to the garage to adjust one way or the other and get it in the sweet spot. I figure I'm within +/- 2° of center. I guess a $185 procal would let me say that I'm exactly at 0° and let the rig know I was on 35s, but it's not going to know anything about the 3"+ lift that's changed the center of gravity of the rig any way. :-(
So, experience folks. How do I start minimizing the lifted w/ 35s wiggles that I experience in the every day asphalt driving to and from work, the mall, Costco/Walmart/CanTire, etc... out on the highway it runs pretty nice up to 120-130... Am I really back to adjustable control arms, yet again to dial the front and rear axle alignment. Can I get away with half a kit? Maybe all lowers and just do new poly bushings on the uppers...? Ugh... $1200 for control arms just rots me. And then an alignment afterward...
You dont have to get an alignment after installing arms. Just measure your castor before and after. And the rear, well, you just dial the pinion.
You can buy arms in singles if you choose to. Up to you. I build arms once in a while in my spare time. I've never looked into building JK arms, but 1200$ sounds fairly steep.
-
Thanks wsquared. I've got a brand new adjustable trackbar since my last alignment at broken axel, however I don't believe things are ideally horiontal or parallel to one another. Will look close this evening. I think they are close but yah... I'll have to look into the hydro steer more, I'm not particularly happy with how either my previous or my current jeep steering feels. The laundry list of todo items is a bit daunting sometimes. Lots to learn.
A properly set up JK steering with 35's does not need Hydro unless you think it's cool to dry steer aired down tires at a dead stop on pavement. I ran mine as my DD with a 3" lift (adjustable front upper control arms to adress caster, two adjustable track bars to keep the axles centered - the rest all stock) and 35's for about three years. I found it to be fine. Yes, more bump steer than I had with 32's, but still very well behaved on the whole. Well behaved enough that I didn't even notice the fact that there was no oil in my steering stabilizer. :-[
If you are running the stock drag link and a proper adjustable trackbar, and there is no fancy-scmancy bracketry installed, your drag link and track bar should still be pretty much parallel. They're not horizontal, but they should be mostly parallel. In order to get them more horizontal, you'd probably look at doing a drag link flip (connect on the top side of the knuckle) as well as a track bar bracket. This is not a step that I would take lightly because a poorly designed track bar bracket can end up applying extra leverage to the factory track bar mount, which can eventually lead to breakage. I did a drag link flip when I trussed my front axle...but that was because the truss completely covered the stock axle side track bar mount.
The other option would be an extended pitman arm (connects the sector shaft to the drag link) - but that has the same problems as the drag link flip, and put a pile of extra stress on your sector shaft too.
For the time being I'd address the caster with front lower control arms, and then see how it feels. I only suggest front lowers because front uppers are a PITA to do on a JK with the 3.8 liter because of where the exhaust runs. I don't know what it's like on a JK with the pentastar.
-
You should try to avoid adjusting caster with lowers. It will push out your wheel base, and can quickly lead to clearence issue at full stuff.
But if you have to make a minor adjustment, you could do it with lowers in a pinch.
Still, optimal is using uppers for caster.
-
I stand corrected - Bill definitely knows more than I do. My suggestion was just based on the fact that you need to sawzall through a bolt when you pull out the stock uppers, but avoiding wheelbase stretch definitely makes sense.
-
Wheelbase stretch brings in need for longer drive shafts... yes?
-
No. But it can quickly cause your front to bind up on stuff like the trackbar and draglink.
-
07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Winch Bumper w/Integrated Fog Mounts [1062]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Bumper D-Ring Kit [1046]
http://www.roughcountry.com/jeep_xtras_jk.html
I think this order may go in this evening... to be negotiated (at home...)
1.
07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
$900
2.
07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Winch Bumper w/Integrated Fog Mounts [1062]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Bumper D-Ring Kit [1046]
$1300
3.
07-13 Jeep JK Wrangler X-Flex Control Arms Full Set [1130]
Jeep JK Front Sway Bar Disconnects (3.5in - 6in) [1146]
Rough Country Recovery Systems Receiver Tow Hook [RS105]
Rough Country 9500lb Electric Winch [RS9500]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Winch Bumper w/Integrated Fog Mounts [1062]
Jeep JK Wrangler Hybrid Bumper D-Ring Kit [1046]
$1700
(Prices are shipping included...)
And in the end... jus the control arms and disconnects. ;-) Ordered. Wait and see...
-
You will wish you spent the extra money on currie control arms. Rough country arms do not last very long before they need work.
Just remember.
You heard it here.
-
I have the old x series rough country control arms. Jks style. Five years old. Anal with grease gun. Do not know how they have survived this long. When they go will be replacing with jks control arms.
-
Thanks guys. I don't mind servicing parts regularly. The summer/vaca budget appreciates holding onto the extra 500$. I expect 2-5 years and will go to something better if I need to when that particular obstacle arrives.