Trail project on September 19th. Ghost FLUZ.

[Spinalguy]

Its an emotionally charged subject. AURS had Volunteer days in Waiporous and Maclean every year. One year we set the North American record for the largest volunteer turnout. Hundreds helped.
After SRD backstabbed us, many 4x4 enthusiasts just gave up. It was a really low point in all of our lives. Many friends sold their rigs and bought quads or bikes instead. Camping and trail riding was on the down low.
When Indian Graves was shut down, that for most of us was the final nail in the coffin.

Many of us vowed to never help do one thing in Waiporous ever again. Many of us remain committed to this vow.

One trail opened will do nothing to change my feelings.

The bike community has submitted one trail to GSMG. We will see where that goes. As the bike community knows, 4x4's in Waiporous got more trail than single track riders got. Yes, we can ride quad (formerly truck) trails but that is akin to taking your jeep to the mall.

So, even in the bike community, Waiporous has been a hard sell. Maclean has been alive with dirtbikers making every singletrack trail sustainable. Start looking around next time you are there. Only bike trails have been posted with signage. Every trail we have has been cleared of blow down. We have built over 100 bridges, skeg mats, up and overs (bridges over cattle fencing), etc.

And yes i know that it is MUCH easier to build things for bikes. But, if Maclean was attacked the way you guys attacked Waiporous over the last 5 years...

One last thought. When the powers that be see what is accomplished in Maclean, they will be much more receptive to allowing real possibilities of trails in Waiporous.

When you decide to pull out of Waiporous and invest in Maclean, i will be there with you to help.

[Hi Lo Silver]

Gunther...buddy...come on...surely you can do better than that in a discussion.

You have nothing to add....just more complaining about SRD. No suggestions on where you think people should direct their efforts, instead of explaining why they shouldn't?  

I take it you’re blind to the ideas I’ve suggested because they aren’t the suggestions you want to here. If you think I’m going to get on here and cheer on ASRD for a job well done you’re sadly mistaken. If you haven’t been around long enough to realize the work put into the areas from many past active people, and that, with a relationship that we thought was going well with ASRD, then you need to be educated on that part of the past.
As Spinalguy has stated, when that GAMP map got rolled out the first time, and the 4x4 community had a chance to view it, we got kicked in the bag hard.

Right now, and maybe you included, there’s a bunch of new people coming into this recreation that have known nothing but the 5 trails in Waiparous. I can see that when I read the trail write ups on this board and see how enthused they are about doing the Lost Knife Trail. I would be too, if it were my first time out.

I too have submitted a trail proposal about 2 years ago or more. A dry trail with no creeks what so ever. They had no interest, and I’m sure that’s what we’ll hear each time.


 

[dunl]

Okay, maybe I missed your suggestions.  But your missing my point, so as one of the "younger" crowd, let me point it out to you:

It's not considered respectful, in good taste, or what us "younger generation" refer to as "proper netiquette" to repeatedly bring up how futile you think the CJA's efforts are for the good work they ARE doing on their own board.

That's all I am saying.  The CJA has decided to go this route.  And if I was on their Exec, it's quite possible that I might not agree, or I might....I'd have to be involved to know where I'd stand with them.  But I'm not, so I won't sit around and tell them it's wrong....especially not here on their board.

Is there something that your group is actively doing right now?  And do you have someone coming onto your website and repeatedly telling you that it's the wrong thing, over and over again?

[JohnB]

Is there something that your group is actively doing right now?  And do you have someone coming onto your website and repeatedly telling you that it's the wrong thing, over and over again?

Basically most other groups have given up on these areas... and the government.  Everyone goes on trails in other places and keeps it secret so that the government is not aware of the location of the trails.

Between Mclean and Waiparous, there are maybe 10% to 20% of the amount of trails needed to be sustainable for the Calgary region.  All the trails are being very quickly destroyed and no amount of project can save them.  The only solution to save them is to open (reopen) a large area.  If a proper Waiparous map had been created, it might be large enough.  Most of the 4WD "roads" that they closed and left open to quads were seeing no damage in the past from truck use.  The closures are the cause of the damage.  But, I assume, you never wheeled in Waiparous and have no idea what the real trails look like.....The remaining 4wd "trails" are just some roads.

Convince SRD to open Mclean and Waiparous in the winter when the ground is frozen and close them during spring breakup.  That is  a simple thing that can not be argued factually as caring for the trails.  If they did that, maybe we could believe they don't really want to ban us completely.....

[Hi Lo Silver]

Okay, maybe I missed your suggestions.  But your missing my point, so as one of the "younger" crowd, let me point it out to you:


?  And do you have someone coming onto your website and repeatedly telling you that it's the wrong thing, over and over again?

Yes, I rag on there more than you'll ever know with the private section.
Feel free to visit often though and be that other person.

[dunl]

Way to miss the point. 

[morerpmfred]

yes Gunner I,m bitter as well.
For the first time Alberta we have 5 designated 4x4 trails in the waiporus that are open year round. Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
 And yes I am proud that i have done my little part in vol enterring in waiporous and will do so again in the future as I have done in the past.

[Hi Lo Silver]

yes Gunner I,m bitter as well. But I do not have family who are entrenched in the legal system , nor do i have enough money for a constitutional challenge at the Alberta court of Queen,s bench level.  However.
For the first time Alberta we have 5 designated 4x4 trails in the waiporus that are open year round. Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
 And yes I am proud that i have done my little part in vol enterring in waiporous and will do so again in the future as I have done in the past.

Nice try Andy. You don't have to have family anywhere. You just have to feel very strongly about and unjustified closure to a specific user group all across this province and all in the hands of ASRD misguiding the public and directing the Alberta government towards total closure to 4x4's. Hey if you feel fine with those 5 trails, you have fun with that. I'm sure you'll be able to enjoy those same five trails for many years to come.

I felt proud about volunteering for many years Andy. I know that feeling.But after the roll out of GAMP and seeing all the past closures and where things are headed I'm sure having a great deal of trouble holding my head up high when I'm taking a run in the back country now.
So are you still getting hours in with that contractor running heavy equipment to reclaim trails or are you back to dry walling again? I’m just curious, because I might need a dry waller one day, but the other I can’t use right now.

[frenchy]

yes Gunner I,m bitter as well. But I do not have family who are entrenched in the legal system , nor do i have enough money for a constitutional challenge at the Alberta court of Queen,s bench level.  However.
For the first time Alberta we have 5 designated 4x4 trails in the waiporus that are open year round. Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
 And yes I am proud that i have done my little part in vol enterring in waiporous and will do so again in the future as I have done in the past.

Are you the one (or worked for him) who billed the gubment some ridiculous amount of cash for 100' of trail in maclean?

PS. You spelled Waiparous wrong, twice   

[JohnB]

Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.

Umm, no...  Previously, you could use them or any trails at any time.

[Hi Lo Silver]

Frenchy, no I don't think its the same contractor. From what I was told last year, he's been hired to do reclaim in the North Burnt Timber area east side of the trunk road. I just wanted to clear that up.

JohnB, from what I remember about 30 years ago when they closed Kananaskis country to motorized, ASRD gave us a mess of trails in the Ghost /Waiparous area to use instead. At that time they told us to stay off the groomed trails due to the work involved in grooming.
There hasn't been enough snow out there for so many years they quit grooming anything out there. It was very shortly after that some of the ASRD folks were very instrumental in encouraging a few people to start the AURS.  I guess ASRD  can feel good about it also being destroyed by them as well.

[SOMETHING WICKED]

As a wise old man once said " if we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it". And no, it wasn't Gun, BUT it is the type of comment he IS capable of producing. Some of us,( 0.25% of the 3% of trail users who actually still use 4x4's off road[and yes, I'm making that # up, but, I'm sure it's VERY close to actuall users]), have been around long enough to know the facts. Guys like Gun, Tom, Crispy, Myself, and many others on these sites, have put in over 12, THAT'S TWELVE, years of effort into projects, and thousands, got it, thousands of dollars. Twice a year!  The AURS was started after the AB4WD assoc. dropped out of site, and was supported by PAST  ASRD employees. It included ALL users. And guess what, they ALL showed up for clean up days. Then a funny thing started to happen, there was nothing to clean up, we had to change the name to voulunteer days. Then The Gov. started to point fingers and cause division between the groups. The dang trucks, those dang bikes, those dang quads! And all of use dumb arses fell for it. Then to top it all off, they close off allmost all our trails! There's yer kick in the nuts! I do know Gun, very well. He is not knocking any of the effort or jobs that the voulunteers are doing. BUT, it has been done in the past, for MANY years. And, due to the fact that the Gov. wasn't prepared to put it in thier budget, it was easier to close the trails all down then face the facts, and fix it. The fact is, they laid off all thier rangers and wardens( thanks Ralph, you douche!), and things got wild. Your right, it's not the users fault, it's the GOVERNMENTS!!! I REALLY hope that your effort pays off. I've been to various work shops and field trip with ASRD, and I know they have had people up here from the U.S. to hear thier thoughts and suggestions as well. But, I personally doubt much will ever come of it becuase things are differant here and they don't want us, the responsable user, to tell them what will work here. Even if that all worked out, does anyone  really think that a bunch of rednecks in 4x4's needs, really matter to the Gov.? Oops, I fergot, not many redneck in the CJA. The only reason we still have Mclean, is that it is not entirely in ASRD's hands. Enjoy it while it lasts. Danm, I must be getting old, cuase I really don't give a $hit about the spelling! P.S. Another old man(it was Gun, this time), once told me, the funny thing about pointin yer finger at someone is, you have three more pointing back at you!

[cLAY]

I think one thing thats been over looked in this discussion is the number of people using the backcountry(for all uses) vs 20-30 years ago.  Lets face it, Calgary is what 3 or 4 times bigger in population while the backcountry keeps getting smaller(I mean over all NOT just from trail closures but from our encroachment on it). More people means more demands on the backcountry and more damage. A trail that was sustainalble 20 years ago saw perhaps one group a month on it, the same trail may now see 3 groups or more on a weekend and with that use may not be sustainable. HWY 1 has been upgraded many times to keep it sustainable with the population increases.

Here's another way too look at, 1% of wheelers are idiots, 100 people using the trail 1 person does something dumb and damages the trail, not a big deal, today 1000 people use the trail, 10 of them are idiots, suddenly the damage is a lot more noticeable.

Dunl, try to this from Gun perspective. He used to be able to LEGALLY wheel in K-country, that got taken away and was told to stay in Waiporous. Then they started taking that away. Its VERY frustrating especially when we could see things DRASTICALLY improving in Waiporous due to education and volunteer days. When I was a kid(20 years ago) there were 4-6 Forest RANGERS for just Waiporous. You couldn't go out there and NOT see a green forestry truck.  Last time I talked with SRD they had 3 OFFICERS for Waiporous and 2 other areas. By not funding SRD the gov't backed them into a corner and forced them to close trails. Everytime we turn around we're getting screwed.

Honestly, can anyone tell me what we've gotten back from our efforts since GAMP came out? I suppose we could thank them for not closing more trails....oh wait they did that too(Indian graves). I really don't think SRD has a clear vision of where to take mechanized back counrty use. They're just flying by the seat of their pants hoping to one day get more funding and not get sued.