Need to re-gear or install a locker? for cheaper?

[jpthing]

I have finally bit the bullet and I am now the proud owner of all tools required to do basic work (regearing and carrier swap) on Dana axles.

This includes:
-Diff case spreader
-Yukon bearing puller set
-Dial indicator w/ magnetic base
-Inch pounds dial tourque wrench
-Hydraulic Shop press
-Various bearing race removal and install tools
-Heated two car garage

Having dropped close to $1500 on these tools I am exploring the idea of renting/helping/allowing others to use them in order to make some $$ back.

I was thinking that interested parties could bring their axle or vehicle (much easier with axle out of vehicle) and I would help them regear with my tools and experience, at my garage.

This would usually take 4-10 hours or so, depending how lucky we get with the pattern.

Is anyone interested in this? What do you think is a fair price? Keep in mind it would be for my time as well. Have you had an axle regeared at a shop? How much did it cost?

I'm Thinking maybe around $500...this may seem like a lot to some, but I think it's less that half of what a shop charges, and you'd have the added bonus of gaining valuable experience...and there's the fact that if I'm gonna spend 8 hours helping someone, I have to get something to make it worth doing...although I guess it depends how much work is needed...generally if you're in there it's best to do axle and pinion seals and all bearings although if you were doing a locker it's possible the pinion could be left as-is.

Thoughts?

[Mikes off road]

Is that price for one diff or both? I had both my diffs done by Eric at Altitude Adjustment in Red Deer for $1600 which included all the parts. I did however pull the diffs out and strip them down to just the carrier in the housing to save me some coin.

[Bnine]

500 is a bit steep, specially for someone without much experience. My going rate is 350 plus parts and oil per axle. 50 dollars extra if its some sort of actuated locker. ARB, OX, Electric. Axle in or out. One thing I used to do was I would provide an additional discount if they pulled the axle, and another if they came and helped. You could do that while getting started.

I've done gears for about 7 years, and have about 200 sets under my belt, so I'll provide some advice thats been a result of my experiences.

Always check the parts they bring over. Lots of folks get a deal on a box full of parts and bring you the wrong stuff.

Always keep extra ring gear bolts on hand. At least 1 full set. Jeep diffs except rubi's all use 3/8's so stop at the gear center and get a bag.

Build a setup inner pinion race for every diff you do. It will save time.

Keep as many spare bearings as you can on hand. You can sometimes get a bad pinion bearing out of the box. Choppy rotation when checking patterns is the first sign. Also, D30's have 3 variations of pinion bearings and its pretty common for someone to bring you the wrong kit.

Dont use a case spreader on jeep axles. Case spreaders can easily distort a diff permanently. Specially little  jeep diffs. Use a dead blow instead.

Dont install beat up looking used lockers. Specially ARB's. They will come back to haunt you. Again, and again, and again.

Buy your oil, rags, and brakeclean in bulk. Shop supplies will nickle and dime you to death if you arent carefull.

Always pre oil when setting up.

Always have extra seals, crush sleeves, and pinion nuts on hand,

Always use permatex anaerobic sealant or equivelant on pinion seals. It only takes a few come backs before you learn that one.

Always set aside more time then you expect you will need.

Always get them to do a break in. 2 heat up and cool down cycles. 500k and drop the oil. We set stuff up tighter then factory, and aftermarket stuff has different tolerances. Silver flecks of brake in material is normal when they ask. As long as it isnt chunks, you're good.

If they want you to get parts, use northridge, he gives the best deals. Avoid the local shops here for the major stuff, as their prices are typically over double that of common U.S. prices.

A little tight on pinion preload is better then a little loose. So if you go over a bit, dont worry about it. But dont stay under.

A little deeper is better then a little shallow. Helical gears wear outwards to the end of the tooth. Lean to the deep side of center for the longest gear life.

8.8's almost never get a pattern on both sides. Dont kill yourself trying on the first one. Get the drive side as good as you can then bolt the POS back together.

Rule of thumb when going deeper on jeep axles is to swap over the stock pinion depth shim, add 10 thou behind setup race and go from there. Should be close every time, and only 1-2 more 5 thou adjustments from a finished pattern.

Good luck. If you ever have questions or are stumped on something, feel free to look me up.

[JackstandJohnny]

I was thinking that interested parties could bring their axle or vehicle (much easier with axle out of vehicle) and I would help them regear with my tools and experience, at my garage.

This would usually take 4-10 hours or so, depending how lucky we get with the pattern.

so have you actually done a gear setup yet?  i think you should reassess your questions after setting up yours to see if its worth it..... 

other things to consider.  when you say 'i'll help do the gears'  this will turn into very quickly you doing the gears yourself with someone watching. 4 - 10 hours is not gonna happen.  YOU may be able to on YOUR jeep, but that doesn't account for people bringing wrong parts, etc. then YOU are a parts runner as well.

last thing to consider. as soon as you take money for a job like that, even if you are just 'helping'  every time that vehicle has an issue they will be coming back to you.  just because you charge half as much, you've still provided a service. 

Also, bills post is bang on.  listen to what he has to say.

best advice, do yours first, then ask the question to yourself.  is it worth having someones rusted out project sitting in your garage waiting for parts cause they were ordered wrong?  or doing the install yourself because they have no clue whats going on (and the vehicle sitting in your garage)  and then all of that for 500$?

[jpthing]

Thanks for the replies, guys, esp. Bnine, some very useful info.

 I should have been more clear, this is really just a "feeler" thread, I'm not offering my services (yet)!! And $500 was just a number thrown out there.

Also I do not have the expertise to sell my services as a gear installer.

I was more thinking that some people may want to set up their own gears but be limited by lack of tools. For others a lack of funds may make going to the shop an impossibility. I am considering offering these people a way to work on the gears themselves, with someone who has done it before on hand.  Notice I say "themselves", so we're talking about people who have a fairly good idea of what the process can entail before weven get started. And you can't have comebacks if they did the work themselves!!

You guys have made me think, though, the real problem is the length of time it can sometimes take to do the job, and having some heep in the garage would be a drag, so yeah, removed axles only then.

Anyways, like I said, I was really just thinking out loud, but I appreciate the advice.

Hey Bnine, seriously, no case spreaders on Dana axles? Dana reccomends them and so do Randy's R+P, they are called for by the Dana service manual. You think even if you only spread it the proper less than 15 thou it could still damage the case?Thanks again for all the tips!

[cLAY]

I done about a dozen gear swaps, all on Dana axles. Never used a case spreader. From factory its been my experience that the cases are usually in there very loose, I've even had a few fall right out on me. I have two short pry bars that I set against the ring gear bolts to pop the others out with.

I don't worry too much about them being really tight going back in, during setup I don't set them tight at all till I have the basic pattern set. I use a set of honed out bearings as well for setup and then when the pattern is close I set in new bearings and add a bit to get a bit of preload on the carrier bearings.

Of course Randy's R&P suggests a case spreader, then can sell you one. Since you have it may as well use it, make things easier but only spread it just enough to pry the case out.

[Immortal]

8.8's almost never get a pattern on both sides. Dont kill yourself trying on the first one. Get the drive side as good as you can then bolt the POS back together.

Must be a Ford thing, right Billy? LOL!!!!

[mike s]

A quick note to anyone thinking about changing gears themselves... It's a really nasty job best left to someone set up to do it. Been pulling wrenches for 20 odd years and would rather pay someone to do it for me, and I'm a really proud SOB. It very fussy, time consuming work that involves alot of experience and quality tools to complete successfully. 

[jpthing]

It's not a nasty job. Regearing my dana 30 was easier (by far) than replacing 8 control arm bushings on my wife's pathfinder, I'll tell you that much!! And yeah, without the right tools it's pretty tough...which is why, after spending $1200+ for my first re-gear at the gear centre I figured the tools would be a better deal next time.

Honestly, after the amount of time I spent researching the process, actually doing it is pretty anti-climatic. Yes, it can involve repeated assembly and dissassembly, and very prescise measurements,  but so what...you follow the steps and eventually it's done...if you're lucky, sooner rather than later.

Basically for me, when the Haynes manual says that something "requires special tools not available to the home mechanic" or is too complex for the home mechanic, I feel compelled to learn how to do it!

My basic philosophy on mechanics is anything that some kid in a classroom can be tought to do, I should be able to do after reading a couple of bookes on the subject...and right now there's a class full of dolts (at least some of them) with little mechanical aptitude, who will be tomorrow's "experts". Anything that can be tought in school can't be that hard to learn if you are interested and set your mind to it. I have regeared/rebuilt a dana 30, 35 and 44 and so far so good!

Cheers guys and thanks for a good conversation

[dunl]

Depends on what you like.  I'd rather pull a 500+ lb Mercedes diesel engine across my floor five times in a row than splice together 2 wires....I HATE electrical.  Others love it.

Setting gears would involve me inventing several dammit tools, I bet.

[hps4evr]

as well, call a few dif shops and see if they have extra shims kicking around. which they will. see if you can snag some for cheap. maybe get some common specs online for the common diffs. build a hard mount for any loose axle assemblies people bring you. doin one on the floor or on a bench aint bad but its nice when its mounted solid to something. i dont think ive ever seen case spreader. good luck

[FiEND]

some day soon i am gonna be the Dominos of gear setups.

Guaranteed 10 minutes or it's free!

[cLAY]

as well, call a few dif shops and see if they have extra shims kicking around. which they will. see if you can snag some for cheap. maybe get some common specs online for the common diffs. build a hard mount for any loose axle assemblies people bring you. doin one on the floor or on a bench aint bad but its nice when its mounted solid to something. i dont think ive ever seen case spreader. good luck

Shims are cheap and you get tons in a set. Buy an install kit which comes with new bearings, seals and shims and you'll have lots of shims left over for next time.

[cLAY]

Personally I don't think diff setup can be effectively taught in a class room. At least it never clicked for me at SAIT till we got into the shop. Its like trying to explain to someone how an open diff works and how the side gears "walk: around each other while spinning inside the case and why its normal for one wheel to turn backwards when the other is turned forward. They just won't understand till they see it.

Same goes for gears, just have to read it to get the basic idea and then just do it.

jpthing, sounds like you got some easy sets under your belt. We'll see how you feel after you do a few stubborn ones and have "good" patterns but howl going down the road.   

FYI stay away from Grand Cherokees with howlings rear diffs, far easier to just go buy another diff than try to rebuild.....

[jpthing]

Personally I don't think diff setup can be effectively taught in a class room. At least it never clicked for me at SAIT till we got into the shop. Its like trying to explain to someone how an open diff works and how the side gears "walk: around each other while spinning inside the case and why its normal for one wheel to turn backwards when the other is turned forward. They just won't understand till they see it.

Same goes for gears, just have to read it to get the basic idea and then just do it.

jpthing, sounds like you got some easy sets under your belt. We'll see how you feel after you do a few stubborn ones and have "good" patterns but howl going down the road.   

FYI stay away from Grand Cherokees with howlings rear diffs, far easier to just go buy another diff than try to rebuild.....

Tell me more, I am curious...
So you've had a problem with good patterns that howl? on new or used gears?
And what about the howly grands? did you replace the gearsets? or just bearings?
I'm not asking to second-guess, just to learn!
Cheers!~