How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.

[Spinalguy]

thanks rocnrol.
that helps guys like me (mechanically inept). i also see where the hackles were understandably raised. Sometimes all it takes is that final button push.
i will tighten my belt.
 

[Eagle Jeeper]

I'm pretty sure that jpthing said he was open for discussion on his posts.  I too agree that the tone of the replys would have gotten my heckles up.  Nobody likes to be treated like an idiot.

[Gearhead]

for any one who is unsure of their belt tension this is a belt tension gauge:



 they are inexpensive and most profesional shops have one. now quit being 14 year old girls and get back to wheeling!

p.s. yes fraser you could proble use this on your belt but you might have problems pooing afterwards.

That's the one and only  tool that will tell you if youre belt is correctly tensioned . Anything else is a rough guess .  Yes   I have one .

[jpthing]

Wow great response. Thanks.

rocnrol, thanks for your coherant response. 

I would like to clarify a few of my points.

Perhaps I was misunderstood, but I never meant to disparage the integrity of pro techs. What I meant when I said that the proper spec is "pretty fricken tight" is this: With all mechanical things, it is rare to find anything which is perfect, more often it's the "perfect compromise". The proper spec is a compromise, in my opinion. Longevity of bearings is compromised to gain long term depedibilty. A shop must set the belt to a setting which is tight enough that it would be highly unlikely that the belt would ever slip for a long period, probably a couple of years. "the belt strecthed" or "it was tight enough not to slip when it was warm out"  would seem like pretty lame excuses to the customer. So belts are set tight enough to prevent comebacks. From what my buddies have told me, there's one thing all the pros hate and thats comebacks. So even though it could conceivably extend the life of your pulley and alternator etc. bearings to set the belt looser, the priority would be to make your belt not slip. (It could be stated that tighter would be better for the shop's interests, since they could habve you back in a year or two for bearings but I wouldn't want to suggest there are any pro shops out there scamming the public ) So what I am suggesting is a different compromise setting. One which prioritizes longevity of components which are already assaulted by mud and water, and recognizes that, to the average jeeper, adjusting a belt once and a while if it squeals is no big deal.

 

[jpthing]

As for the belt tensionchecking tool, ya obviosly they are a cool tool, however the only cheap ones I have seen are for v-belts, if anyone knows a cheap source for a serp belt tension checker I would be interested.

rocnrol, you seem to be talking about the spring loaded belt tensioners more. The jeeps I own am am talking about have bolt tensioners.

Rocnrol has said my ideas are terrible but I would like him to please explain why...Assuming we leave the belt dressing in the can, what's wrong with running the belt a little looser? My belts don't squeal 99.9% of the time, my charging system is happy, my temp never rises above normal, my power steering always has power, my belt has never flown off. What's the big deal?  Is my jeep going to spontaeneosly combust?

[rocnrol]

why your idea is bad is because with out the proper tension, the belt wont be allowed to grip the sheave properly. remember how i said the belt bulges and its the bulge that grips? with out the right tension you are loosing out on the effectiveness (for lack of a better word) of the belts ability to transmit torque. as well, everytime the belt slips, ie the squeal, you are glazing the belt, which promotes it to actually slip more, which glazes it more and the cycle repeats until the belt is ruined, not to mention the sheave as well. i will put my ticket on the line and guaranty that bearing life will not be reduced if proper tension is used on your belts.

[rocnrol]

more on bearing failure. bearing life is called its b10 life. look at the link to get kinda the idew of what i am talking about and you will see the bearings are quite ok in thier job.

http://www.motionbrgs.com/engineering_data.htm

[jpthing]

Do you think it's going to cause problems if a) it's tight enough for everything to always work properly and b) if it only squeals for around half a second once or twice a month?

Again I think you are missing my point...I could tighten the belt slightly more, it would never slip, but it would still be looser than spec. That would be a problem?

And as for your "ticket challenge": Ask any engineer, automotive or otherwise. There is no question whatsoever that the life of a bearing is directly relative to the loads that are placed on it. It is also a known fact among automotive professionals that overtightening the belt can damage bearings. So how is it a stretch to conclude that lessening the tension could extend their life?

[jpthing]

more on bearing failure. bearing life is called its b10 life. look at the link to get kinda the idew of what i am talking about and you will see the bearings are quite ok in thier job.

http://www.motionbrgs.com/engineering_data.htm

Was this data obtained from muddy jeeps?

[rocnrol]

no, its not from muddy jeep. i am not advocating overtightening your belts, that would be bad. losser then spec is a problem.would you run, say a head bolt at a lesser spec for fear of stretching it?

[Thunder]

Dude, please do the write up. I've got a 4 inch lift on my 89 and a few vibes, nothing serious but I would like to get rid of the T-case drop...
Not to start anything here but I got a serious taste of professional mechanics...
I've got an 89 so no OBD or nothing, I guess you need a special code reader so I took it to the jeep dealership here in High River. One hour and $125 later the guy tells me to replace my plugs and wires and that I needed to set my timing. I'm pretty sure they didn't hook it up or even know how to extract any codes as I guess you have to have it running and induce the problem for it to show up... Anyways, the professionals at the dealership can kick rocks for all I care.
So uh yeah, how do I make a better drive shaft for 4 inches of lift for cheap heh?

[jpthing]

no, its not from muddy jeep. i am not advocating overtightening your belts, that would be bad. losser then spec is a problem.would you run, say a head bolt at a lesser spec for fear of stretching it?

Buddy, I'm getting sick of arguing.

I've had lots of problems with blown alternator bearings, and I have chewed through lots of idler pulleys over the years. On the other hand I have had zero problems with belt slippage. You do the math.

And if I had had a problem in the past with the head bolts stretching I would consider touquing it lower the next time. But that is so far removed from what we are discussing that's borderline on the absurd. A loose head bolt could cause serious problems. A loose belt could...slip (gasp) or squeal (oh goodness) unless you tightened it a little. And it could cause a (good lord no) glazed belt....I'm so terrified about glazed belts that I think I'm going to go tighten all my belts right now...sorry, gotta go.

rocnrol, despite your initial hostile response you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Why don't you do some write ups of tech tips that you think are cool? I'm totally man enough to say that whether the belts are a little tighter or a little looser is really no big deal in the big picture. I'm not recommending greasing your rotors or running your u-joints without grease or saying pros are idiots.

Do you disagree that bearing life is directly relative to load on said bearing?

[jpthing]

I'm done on here for today but I will try to post it up over the next coupla days!
Thanks for the "positive vibrations" (no reference to your driveshaft intended)

Sorry, forgot to do the quote thing but this was in response to thinder'S post.

[JackstandJohnny]

rocnrol, despite your initial hostile response you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Why don't you do some write ups of tech tips that you think are cool? I'm totally man enough to say that whether the belts are a little tighter or a little looser is really no big deal in the big picture. I'm not recommending greasing your rotors or running your u-joints without grease or saying pros are idiots.
 

sorry man thats a horrible idea.  we do not need people making post like this all the time offering advise that is at best, marginal; this isn't Jeepforum,; post it there or NAXJA you'll probalby get a tonne of praise from people that don't know thier arse from a wrench.


   

 

[cLAY]

There are no codes to be had in an '89. All you can do when hooking it to a scanner is read certain real time data such as timing advance, rpm, O2 voltage....  There are no stored codes to be read.

The only problem with running a belt loose is as Rocnrol said, every time it slips it gets a bit more glazed, the more glazed it gets the more likely it is to slip. When it does slip it will be when its under high load, just when you need it most.

 The bearings were chosen to be able to handle the load of a belt at proper tension. Yes, over tightening the belt will reduce their life and theoretically leaving it loose could extend it, but at the cost of the belt for really little gain to the life of the bearings. I am quite satisfied with life span of the bearings on my vehicles, as I said I only had to do the idler once on the 100,000kms that I had my XJ. I really dont think leaving the belt a bit loose would have extended it that much. Also come to think of it that bearing was far cheaper than a good quality Gatorback belt. A mute point I know....

I myself have a HUGE load on my belt when wheeling due to the electric fan I swapped in and running the winch adds a big load plus the upgraded alt, AC compressor.... it all adds up. I myself do NOT want to hear the belt squealing when I kick in the winch when out wheeling.

The ``proper tension`` is not an exact science and when I think about this thread I start to laugh inside that so much effort is being expelled on this topic, however it is the middle of February so what can you do....    Here is how I do it, tighten it up nice and snug but don`t go nuts on it. If it squeals tighten it a bit more.

And you are right... we techs HATE come backs. Comebacks mean I screwed up. I will tighten a new belt on the tighter side of things knowing that with a few days of driving the belt WILL stretch and be at the correct tension. I do NOT believe this causes any extra measurable wear on the bearings and I think that 99.9% of the the people out there who take their cars in to have a belt replaced will prefer this method over the hassle of bringing the car back a week later for me retighten the belt.

I replace FAR more belts than I do bearings which tells me that the bearings are handling the loads ok.