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Author Topic: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.  (Read 22056 times)

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Offline dac

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2010, 09:52:28 PM »
I might be out to lunch but I doubt it.  I recall being told head bolts are supposed to stretch when you torque them, that's why you don't re-use them, because when you take them out they might not 'spring' back to where they were new.
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Offline hps4evr

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2010, 10:22:32 PM »
personally i could care less if i change pulley bearings and alternators every year. i need 100% performance from my drive belt system when im wheeling. so, it will go tight. my concern is of performance. not trying to save a few bucks. besides, you found a cheap way to replace the bearings so why not go tight and then there wont be any issues.
as well, i rinse a lot of engines with water at work and the belts always get wet. i blow dry them a little but i cant get it all dry. my trick is to use a little floor dry/kitty litter. just drop some of the powder onto the belt as its running and the squeek will disapear instantly. i blow dry any left over floor dry off the engine and go for a drive. i like this because it keeps the belt dry, no sprays or oils touch the belt.

some head bolts are designed to stretch. if you have a torque sequence on head bolts that ends with an extra 90 degree turn, thats the stretch part.
YJ=Y’all Jealous

Offline rocnrol

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2010, 06:39:46 AM »
the head bolt thing was just an analogy. but bolt torque specs stretch the bolt just enough so as not to exceed its elasticity, that's how it will hold its clamping force. if it gets over torqued, it permanently stretches and is ruined, under torqued, and proper clamp force is not achieved.

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2010, 10:32:15 AM »
There are no codes to be had in an '89. All you can do when hooking it to a scanner is read certain real time data such as timing advance, rpm, O2 voltage....  There are no stored codes to be read.

The only problem with running a belt loose is as Rocnrol said, every time it slips it gets a bit more glazed, the more glazed it gets the more likely it is to slip. When it does slip it will be when its under high load, just when you need it most.

 The bearings were chosen to be able to handle the load of a belt at proper tension. Yes, over tightening the belt will reduce their life and theoretically leaving it loose could extend it, but at the cost of the belt for really little gain to the life of the bearings. I am quite satisfied with life span of the bearings on my vehicles, as I said I only had to do the idler once on the 100,000kms that I had my XJ. I really dont think leaving the belt a bit loose would have extended it that much. Also come to think of it that bearing was far cheaper than a good quality Gatorback belt. A mute point I know....

I myself have a HUGE load on my belt when wheeling due to the electric fan I swapped in and running the winch adds a big load plus the upgraded alt, AC compressor.... it all adds up. I myself do NOT want to hear the belt squealing when I kick in the winch when out wheeling.

The ``proper tension`` is not an exact science and when I think about this thread I start to laugh inside that so much effort is being expelled on this topic, however it is the middle of February so what can you do.... :D    Here is how I do it, tighten it up nice and snug but don`t go nuts on it. If it squeals tighten it a bit more.

And you are right... we techs HATE come backs. Comebacks mean I screwed up. I will tighten a new belt on the tighter side of things knowing that with a few days of driving the belt WILL stretch and be at the correct tension. I do NOT believe this causes any extra measurable wear on the bearings and I think that 99.9% of the the people out there who take their cars in to have a belt replaced will prefer this method over the hassle of bringing the car back a week later for me retighten the belt.

I replace FAR more belts than I do bearings which tells me that the bearings are handling the loads ok.


I have never replaced a belt due to glazing.
I have replaced many belts due to cracking.
I'm pretty sure increased belt tension would contribute to cracking, both by phisically stretching the belt, as well as the additional heat the belt will contend with at greater tensions.
Yes, the belts and pulleys are engineered to withstand these stresses, but they are also engineered with a finite lifespan. Changing the operating conditions can change the lifespan.
You are correct, bearings are cheap, but pulleys are not (which is what a lot of guys would use). And alternators cost a fortune. I have replaced several alternators due to bearing failure.
cLay, you said yourself you would rather err on the side of too-tight than too loose, with the logic that it will stretch to proper tension...that can't do anything good for the longterm life expectancy of the belt. Of course it's still the right choice in a shop setting, but not for me or my jeep. I would rather fine tune the belt to run at the loosest setting where it does not slip.
I will worry about what has caused me problems in the past. If you have not experienced these problems then obviously my advice on how to deal with these problems will not be suitable for you.

I have enjoyed the discussion, thanks to everyone who has contributed, I think it's time to move on.
'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline cLAY

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2010, 03:32:45 PM »
I agree the best setting is is just tight enough not to squeal, if its squealing its slipping and glazing.

slipping =glazing
Glazing = heat
heat = cracking
cracking = bad
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 03:47:25 PM by cLAY »
..

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Offline Bnine

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2010, 05:09:17 PM »
I agree with rocnrol everything posted here. Besides the fact that he is just right, there is also the application to consider.

This is an offroading sight. Offroaders accessories are subjected to higher loads then your everyday use vehicle. Our steering systems are worked to the maximum, our bearings and alternators get polluted with foreign material. At no time do want to risk a loose accessory system in an effort to make a few cheap bearings last an extra month.

Honestly, in out application, the bearings will all die prematurely due to invasive and corrosive damage long before they will wear out due to normal use.

There is absolutely no reason to ever run a belt system on the "looser" side of spec, specially with offroad vehicles.

If this thread did anything it brought out some actual techs that know their stuff and put some of the misinformation JP was thinking to rest.


Thanks JP for bringing it up, and thanks Rocnrol for setting things straight.

Good thread over all.
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Offline rocnrol

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2010, 05:32:09 PM »
thanks bnine

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2010, 08:45:55 AM »
I respectfully disagree and will continue to run my belts at the loosest setting where slippage does not occur, as I have been doing without issues for about a year now.
Just for the sake of discussion, I loosened the belt on my TJ last night to what I figured was absolutely the loosest reasonable setting. The idlers can be forced to slip against the belt by using your hand to turn them. That's pretty loose! This morning, cold start, not plugged in, it started fine with no slippage or squealing. I'm taking it out to Waip today, as is, with a belt so loose you could pull it off by hand if you tried (you'd never get it back on without adjusting the tensioner though), and I will report how it worked at this ridiculously loose setting.

Something to consider is that it wouldn't be noticeable if the alt or water pump slipped a little, but with the power steering, you would notice increased steering effort immediatly. So if my power steering is working, I will assume my belt is not slipping. Also I am not suggesting your belt should slip. I am reccomending using the loosest setting which never slips rather than setting it to a "spec" which suits a wide variety of vehicles, users, and objectives.

Obviously heat is an enemy of the belt and basic physics demonstrates that the greater the tension on the belt the greater the friction and heat.

Please explain what the perceived hazard is of running it looser than spec assuming it does not slip during use......
'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline dac

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2010, 08:54:01 AM »
I think the hazard from running it really loose and telling us about it is the ongoing arguments on this forum.  If it's working well now why are you messing with it?  It's obviously not broken.
This is not 'Nam, this is wheeling.  There are rules.

Offline dac

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2010, 09:01:14 AM »
Sorry, I'll make my point..... I've got over 100,000km on my jeep.  If a bearing goes on the belt system I'll fix it.  It'll probably last another 100,000km or how ever long it's going to last.  If I were to mess with now I'd never know exactly how long it would have lasted, thus not being able to quantify if the changes actually helped or not.  If I was always fixing the same thing, then it'd be time to figure out what's causing it.

I think you've beaten this horse with the proverbial stick enough.  If you're not constantly fixing the same problem you're wasting your time on something that's not broken.
This is not 'Nam, this is wheeling.  There are rules.

Offline Immortal

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2010, 12:05:11 PM »
I agree
if we were smart with our money we wouldn't own Jeeps.
Here's your cup of STFU... ENJOY!

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2010, 06:27:57 PM »
well I agree this topic has just about had it, but it annoys me when people tell me that something I can see right in front of me working fine does not work, and use their credentials to scare people away from an idea which has very little risk...if your belt slips, you can just tighten it up a little. It's really not that scary.

I ran the belt super loose all day today(way looser than what I suggested). Everything worked fine all day, out to waiporous and back, and all day on the trail. And even at this ridiculouly loose setting it worked fine and the power steering alternator and water pump functioned as intended. I "risked a loose accessory system" as bnine said (wow that makes it sound super scary!!) and nothing happened. It didn't squeal once all day except for about half a second while I was blasting through powder and the belt got all snowy. I'm going to tighten it up a little, but I wish the naysayers would back down from their "only one way is right" attitude and accept that a) it's really no big deal and b)it's working for me and c)that it could work for others who may choose to try it.

And I would suggest that those who are finding this thread "hazardous" avoid it. I am finding it quite entertaining!

Cheers!

'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline bae146

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2010, 09:13:18 PM »
The belt keeps my pants up, if its not tensioned properly then my pants fall down :( Mine works by pushing a small metal rod through a hole in the leather to hold it in a certain position. I don't use any "dressing" on mine, if it gets dusty then I just use a damp cloth to wipe it off.

My Belt doesnt get dusty cuz I have a bit of an overhang above it to sheild it from dust!!!!  ;)

Offline jpthing

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2010, 10:35:57 AM »
My Belt doesnt get dusty cuz I have a bit of an overhang above it to sheild it from dust!!!!  ;)

I thinks that overhang's supposed to be for holding beers and wrenches. (and possibly repelling wenches?)
'97 TJ, 5" lift, 35's "Sprout"
'95 Xj, 4" lift, 33's Sold to the Bagman
'10 JK unlimited

"Whether you think you can or think you can't...you're right."
-Henry Ford

I'm finally over the Jeep bike debacle..

Offline Bnine

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Re: How to save $$ on idlers, belts, accsessories etc.
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2010, 10:03:11 AM »
It has nothing to due with scary and everything to do with being pointless bad advice. Period.

I hope you dont approach all these diffs you are going to work on with this "abstract" attitude of yours.
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