What products are Jeep guys into?

[EVOLUTION]

it would have been around '08 when i was looking for that arm. evo didnt have one, and the impresion i got was they wernt making them either.

i am a huge fan and supporter of evo and what clay does, so please take what i say as constructive and purley my opinion.

hoestly, i have no idea what evo's bussineus plan is. i visit the web site all the time and all i see are people looking for thier order. i see projects that are way behind. i then see a post asking what products jeep people are into.

so here is what i do know. evo is small, and kinda starting over at your new place. evo is short staffed, we all get that. clay is a great guy, who makes for an even better face for the company, and is a guy who took a look around and seen a lacking in some quality products for a small segment of a huge sport. so when i see a post such as this one, to me your looking for a way to make some money. find out what people want and make it. well............. what i want is to be able to buy pretty much is the standard builder crap that is allready out there. i dont want to take the time to dezign a basic bracket or tab, give you the dimensions, and then wait to have it built. i am sick of the fact its all done in the us. i found one canadian site, tmr customs, that sells what i am looking for , but all thier stuff is, for the most part, american. i even sent them an email and asked them why they sell a johnny joint, when there is a canadian joint that will blow it away. thier answer is because that is what people are asking for.

i have built enough of my own tabs and brackets to know what a huge time consumer it is. time i could be using for just building. plus it will look way better too.
i know evo is proud of the custom work it can do and has done, as it should be. it something that should be promoted. but if you have a plazma table now, man i really think you should be lookin at producing the mindless crap that is allready out there and have it on a shelf ready to go. something where i can plunk stuff into a cart, give you my credit card number, and be crazy happy when my builder products show up in the mail and i go weld my face off.

just thrown my two cents in erin. and by no means am i being negative towards what evo does or the quality, or your inovation. i feel this is you strong points. its great that you guys can do an amazing custom jeep cage. but not every one can drive in to your shop and plunk down down 2g and leave thier rig there for a month.   to be honest, i had no idea evo had a jeep bolt in kit, and i am allway on the site. even now its kinda tough to see what you have and how much. is thier plans to have an online store?

just tryin to keep it real and i want to see this company thrive and prosper.

I totally appreciate your honesty.  You raised points that I already knew about... so here's our story.

The machinist, millwright, fabricator, Engineer, builder, welder etc for Evolution is Clay.  I quit my good paying oil job in May to come help him full time because he just couldn't keep up with the paperwork etc.  I'm basically learning everything as I go as well.  We have no staff because we can't afford to pay people, and also because it's hard to find someone who already has fabrication skill & we wouldn't need to fully train from scratch.  Clay is a perfectionist & his works speaks for itself... but it also takes a long time.  This is usually not because a suspension takes a long time to design persay... but because he has to do little jobs inbetween in order to pay the bills for the materials etc that we order... and everything is built by him.  Joints, brackets, trusses, links etc etc.

I know he would be best off scrapping the custom fab, full builds etc... and stick to machining his heims, steering components, suspension components, brackets, Rockwell stuff and doing generic kits, bumpers, cages that you can order.  We've spoken about this many times so he knows this is what I feel too.

In June I went to Reno to learn the Torchmate program so I could start using the plasma table.  It was the best thing I did for myself... but like I mentioned, I am still learning everything.  Every time I take Clay away from what he is doing to ask him to help me with something... it takes away from someone else's stuff that needs to be done.  I have designed a ton of brackets that I have the files for and there's so many out there that I want to design... so that is what I'll do.

Anyhow... lets just say we concentrated on the heims & machined products.  We just don't have the money to order all the material in and spend months machining to build up a huge inventory.  When we get paid for heims, we put that money right back into the material & order more.  It takes about 2 weeks to get heims in because we have to machine the bodies, the beans, the races, the rings, the jam nuts and the tube inserts... and then send them all up to Edmonton to be coated.  We are getting better with inventory & are starting to build it up a little... but it's hard to keep up when it's only one guy.

I can go on about what our story is.. but hopefully you get the gist of it.  I will take your constructive criticism and start working on designing brackets so we can keep them in stock.  I will also take your words of wisdom & start working towards developing a DIY weld-in cage.  I would like to help Clay out as much as possible & these are things I can be doing... mindless crap on the plasma table seems right up my alley  I think he just wants to do everything and finds it hard to give up one part of what he does.  He has some amazing products that sell very well.. and would sell a lot better if they were in stock.

As for Evo's business plan... Clay would probably say it's to take on the world.    I'll stop rambling now, but I do appreciate the posts.  This is why I started this thread, to get an idea of what YOU guys want to see... so I can develop my own part of the company & help out.  I may be just a girl, but I have a lot of faith in Clay & his vision... and I want to be there to watch him succeed.  

[EVOLUTION]

prime example of what i am talking about 

http://forum.calgaryjeep.com/index.php?topic=20672.0

I was just reading that yesterday actually.  I have these in the computer already so I'll cut some more.

[cLAY]

Here's another:

http://forum.calgaryjeep.com/index.php?topic=20898.0

[dunl]

 I think he just wants to do everything and finds it hard to give up one part of what he does.  He has some amazing products that sell very well.. and would sell a lot better if they were in stock.

And that right there, IMHO, will make or break the business.   

[rocnrol]

well Erin....... thanks for taking it in the spirit it was meant to be. i know its easy to be the arm-chair quarterback, with out my  money on the line. and all one has to do is read the shout box on evo's site to know how passionate clay is and here is another cliche, you got to start out small and work your way up. that takes the most work from you guys to do that. next thing you know you will be able to pay a welder, then a machinist, and so on. the work you guys have to do is provide a product people want to buy, then get out there and sell it. if people dont know who you are or what you got, your in trouble. as far as i am concerned, clay doing the custom stuff, and the competitions with the wort hog goes towards that. i had the opportunity to go to tomken machine this fall while were on holidays there with the jeeps. i had broken the steering on the jeep and couldnt believe my fortune they were in town.i was expecting this huge wizzy place and to be told they had no time to help me. exactly the opposite. pretty much the exact same set up you guys have, size and all. there was two guys in the the shop and the wife up front. they wheeled me right in, pushing out a project jeep, and fixed me right up. but to pay the bills, they are floging crap on their Internet store.

any who, i digress, i dont allways have something going on, but when i do, i would love to be able to by Canadian, and buying local would be even better. i think you guys will make it, just get the ship pointed in the right direction and floor it. asking here, and where ever else you have is the right start.

one more example and then ill shut up. in the early 80's, we moved to a VERY small town in BC. this was during the recession, so my dad had no work, so when the video store came up for sale( the only 0ne in town) he bought it. this was before the chain stores really had a grip on this market, and the store had to buy the movies  as they were released. my dad had to pick them, and ,well, he would pick what he liked. couldn't stand to buy the "junk" that most movies were...........in his eyes. that store eventually failed and we had to sell it.
ok, so more people chime in with what they would like to see available from evo

[morerpmfred]

I drive an xj so i need aj stuff
short arm , upper joint ,axle end and  high misalignment joints that fits in the stock style aftermarket brackets on the arms
steerring box brace
track bar and support brace
control arms
axle trusses or internal support tubes for front diff that attach to
diff covers
ball joints that don,t break when you break a u joint
ujoints tht don,t break
bearings / spindle to replace unit bearings or a unit bearing with a grease nipple
internet site that shows pictures of all of your different manufactered  
                                          CANADIAN   
                                         made products

You go Erin and Clay

[Spinalguy]

i'll play.

Reading this and other local Canadian jeep sites i find that the most often upgrades are the following:
front bumper  
rear bumper with tire carrier
rock sliders
bolt/weld cages

If Evolution could produce these items  with the signature of Clay and for this side of the operation, Erin building them, you would have the ears and wallets of Canadian jeepers.
Bumpers could be a big winner if you have them on your shelf.  
Whether it be  CJ, Y.J TJ, JK or XJ, keep the bumpers identical in design. This would keep costs down. Obviously different mounting points, length and brackets but overall the same.
The front bumpers need 2 spots for clevis attatchments and a universal winch mount would complete it nicely for most consumers.
The rear needs a tire carrier that doesn't rattle and stays closed.
If the items are lighter and strong, they could be an internet winner.

PRICEpoint is key. Lets say that you would accept an overall profit of only $??? after material and time have been calculated.
If you sold 10 single unit bumpers a month, thats xxxxx/yr extra income...not bad

With Sliders and Bumpers on the shelf at a more competetive pricepoint than USA internet prices, you will be doing much more than 10 single units per month. When orders are placed, they are shipped immediately. This is the key to success.

The small custom pieces are not where the money is for Erin's side of the business. Realistically, of all the above mentioned ideas for arms, tabs, etc...how many units would be sold monthly? i honestly do not know but for Evolution to succeeed and not just survive, any 'on shelf' item must  sell weekly.



 :)Tk


 

[rocnrol]

its kind of exciting when you think of the possibilities. here's a few more. with standens in town, no reason you couldn't collaborate on an evo lift kit line. and with clays incredible suspension knowledge, you could add his take to long arms or coil conversion kits........... also evo drive line conversion pieces. the ol 203 doubler thing is popular these days. i like the shock idea he has going on. i think that will sell. i also really like his take on hydro assist steering. i would totally buy that for my commando build. it takes care of the exact problems i had issues with doing it the traditional way.

[silverfox]

i'll play.

Reading this and other local Canadian jeep sites i find that the most often upgrades are the following:
front bumper  
rear bumper with tire carrier
rock sliders
bolt/weld cages

If Evolution could produce these items  with the signature of Clay and for this side of the operation, Erin building them, you would have the ears and wallets of Canadian jeepers.
Bumpers could be a big winner if you have them on your shelf.  
Whether it be  CJ, Y.J TJ, JK or XJ, keep the bumpers identical in design. This would keep costs down. Obviously different mounting points, length and brackets but overall the same.
The front bumpers need 2 spots for clevis attatchments and a universal winch mount would complete it nicely for most consumers.
The rear needs a tire carrier that doesn't rattle and stays closed.
If the items are lighter and strong, they could be an internet winner.

PRICEpoint is key. Lets say that you would accept an overall profit of only $??? after material and time have been calculated.
If you sold 10 single unit bumpers a month, thats xxxxx/yr extra income...not bad

With Sliders and Bumpers on the shelf at a more competetive pricepoint than USA internet prices, you will be doing much more than 10 single units per month. When orders are placed, they are shipped immediately. This is the key to success.

The small custom pieces are not where the money is for Erin's side of the business. Realistically, of all the above mentioned ideas for arms, tabs, etc...how many units would be sold monthly? i honestly do not know but for Evolution to succeeed and not just survive, any 'on shelf' item must  sell weekly.



 :)Tk


 

I would have to agree 100% with this approach.  Being in the market for my second bumper and armed with quite a bit more information than the last time (just went down to jeep dealer and bought the Mopar one) I am frustrated at the broad range of products available but the lack of any local representation.  It is a little difficult to get a feel for a product based on a couple of internet pictures.  What ends up happening is you pick a few that you like and then you scour the various internet forums for people that have installed the product and get a feel for it. 

I suspect there is a fairly large market for a good quality reasonable priced aftermarket bumper in Calgary, never mind within Western Canada.  Shipping costs makes everything from Tires to Winches expensive to order from US markets especially when you start to factor in getting hosed by UPS on there brokerage and duty.   Trying to figure out what your final price would be in getting stuff delivered from the US is a crapshoot at best.  A perfect example is I was looking at a set of Crager soft 8's  5 rims, around $400 for the rims and $350 for shipping.  Now you factor in the UPS Brokerage at and duties at and you are talking north of $1,000 for 5 steel rims that should retail at $80 bucks.  Now I don't give that example to suggest you start carrying rims but more to show the frustration of the Canadian purchaser in this circumstance.

So now phase into the current suppliers that we can get in Canada and I would suggest that they are taking advantage of the the limited supply out there and that there prices have a fairly hefty amount of profit in them (well at least gross profit) I don't begin to suggest I have a full understanding of the overhead costs that they are managing or what their inventory carrying costs are.  But by looking at there US counterparts it seems that there is a large disparity in the pricing structures.  Used to be that you could right that off as a US$ vs CAD$ issue but that hasn't been the case for over a year now (closer to 2) so the whole currency disparity would have worked its way through the economics of most if not all suppliers yet there has been no real price reductions across the board. 

If you look at the same two bumpers avail in US and Canada one is priced at $1,050 CAD and the same is offered in the US at $850USD. Now I would argue that the company is making a profit at the $850 mark in the US or they wouldn't be selling them, factor in that they are not the manufacturer but just a third party reseller and assuming a 15% profit margin (just for sake of argument) then the $850 bumper is running them $740 cost from the manufacturer.  Assuming the manufacturer is in it to make money and has a significant facility employees etc etc we will give them a 20% margin (again just for arguments sake - Some of the aftermarket autoparts suppliers in the US and Canada are making in excess of 30%) then we are talking a cost of say $615.  Now given that Evo is a much smaller shop than most of the aftermarket suppliers out there I would argue that your cost is further reduced (not knowing the mix of labour to materials lets just guess) by say a factor of an additional 15% putting your cost for the same product in at $540 for the same product.  You have a base cost of $540 for a product that retails here in Canada at $1,050.  So you make a comparable or better product and you price it aggressively at say $750.  You are making a $210 profit margin or 39% markup not a bad profit margin for a product priced at 30% less than the competitors.

But and here is the but.  I agree with Spinal...............when I order it online I should get an email within 24hrs letting me know my bumper has been shipped here is the tracking number and it should arrive all shiny and new within a few days of that.  I don't want to have to fork out then wait for it to get fabricated over the course of the next few days or weeks.  While there is a portion of us that will and do wait for these things largely we are an instant gratitude type of society and if it isn't in stock one place we are likely to want it enough to pay a little more somewhere that we can get it NOW.

Ok sorry about the extended ramble............comes with the territory as I am a finance professional

[fug]

This is probably going to be unpopular.. but oh well.

How many bumpers do you think the manufacturers sell?  You seriously think someone is going to have them on the shelf so you can just walk in and grab one (or order online).  The market for aftermarket jeep parts especially big dollar items like good suspensions or well built bumpers is relatively small.  Most of the shops building the stuff we buy are small and can't afford to have a ton of cash tied up in inventory.  I just don't think it would be viable for most of them to stock a ton of stuff. 

The other thing I'd like to point out is, as Bnine has already said in his ever so delicate way... most jeepers are cheap assed to a fault.  I buy and sell a fair amount of stuff... and the number of people who are "gonna be right over" to pick something up ... or "should have money" next week is astounding.  I know it's part of the game but it really does get frustrating when people won't keep their commitments or try to talk you down on an already low priced item.   I can only imagine how much worse it is for shops... guys that come in and talk and talk and talk ... and then don't buy anything.   I know personally of guys who would rather not even sell their old parts cause its such a hassle... and other guys like Gearhead who take the "don't wast my time or squirt me off" approach.   I'll probably keep buying and selling stuff cause the horse trading is kind of fun to me and I get a kick out of being able to help out a fellow club member get their junk back on the road.   I don't how ever believe for a minute that Jeepers inherent cheapness and dreams bigger than their wallet mentality is going to change.

I would love to have a shop that had everything that I want on hand for instant delivery... but I realize that its probably just not practical.

[JackstandJohnny]

for what its worth:

i had something long winded typed then shortened it

long arms for ZJ/XJ. some sort of tranny crosmember mount with a real three link instead of the radius arm things.

bracket kits for XJ/XJ.


belly/tummy tuck

these win my vote because after you've done the research stuff for them, you should be able to make a couple batches of bracket kits, long arm mounts etc for relatively cheap, then see how/if they sell.  then go from there. 

anyone who has wanted to long arm a ZJ/XJ will tell you how frustrating it is to see the price tags on some of the stuff in the US, and its not the greatest product or exactly what you want

[silverfox]

This is probably going to be unpopular.. but oh well.

How many bumpers do you think the manufacturers sell?  You seriously think someone is going to have them on the shelf so you can just walk in and grab one (or order online).  The market for aftermarket jeep parts especially big dollar items like good suspensions or well built bumpers is relatively small.  Most of the shops building the stuff we buy are small and can't afford to have a ton of cash tied up in inventory.  I just don't think it would be viable for most of them to stock a ton of stuff. 

I don't think that bumpers is "The" answer, I think what I am trying to get at is that there is logic to stocking some things.............I am not talking a warehouse full.  I don't for a second begin to think I understand Evolutions dilemmas in getting there business to where they want it.  For all I know they are where they want to be.   I was more providing an opinion with regard to stocking certain after market parts.  Maybe bumpers isn't it, maybe its reselling something that has a higher turnover rate.

As for dreams are bigger than wallet...............hell you bet.  I want a ton of stuff and I want it all now.........but unless my kids are planning on stopping eating for the next few months then I will have to take a slow approach to my desires.  I don't think there is a need for a large amount of varied stock, hell that is how a lot of retailers (online or otherwise) get in trouble have a ton of cash tied up in inventory that then can't be used for other things (like paying employees for example).  But there is a trade off as well depending on what the short, medium and long term plans of the business is.  If you walk into a store and don't get what you wanted/need the first time then maybe you don't look there next time.  If there is a desire for "the products Jeep guys are into" then there needs to be a certain capacity to provide those products.  If the desire is just to be the best damn fabrication shop within a 1,000km radius well then that is a different issue as well.  Each comes with its challenges in garnering what little money "cheap assed Jeepers" want to dole out.  

However I will disagree on the cheap assed a little bit.  The roads are full of Jeeps and a ton of them are modified.  I think the cheap assed portion may be the gear heads and wheelers out there, why are they cheap assed...........cus we break crap.  But I have seen more freakin' Lifted, low profiled tired, lit up, chrome gas capped,  decaled Jeeps than I can shake a stick at...........and guess what they have money just to make it look like it is bad assed..... so getting some of that money may help for the other side of the business.  Now you run into another dilemma, can you manage both sides of the industry or do you want to.  Seems to me there is a delineation between "posers" and "Jeepers" (hopefully I am the latter   )and never the twain shall meet.

So being the shop that has everything on hand for instant delivery is not only probably not practical but I would suggest it is not possible.  However, being the go to for that one or two or ten items that are generally wanted and having them accessible is a different thing entirely.

All in all this is just my opinion and not knowing what the business owners really want or need or have the capacity to do makes it just more internet flotsum.............my apologies for the HiJack so back to the point at hand.

I would still love to see an M-101 type "kit"      of course I want it in stock and I only want to pay $99.99 delivered  

[AstraX]

I can't speak about what products are in need as I am just new and this and quite clueless.  From a business perspective though, I have to agree with Fug.  I think it is very unrealistic to ask small shops to carry inventory.  Unless they have an ultimate business plan to go BIG with full feature online shopping and a big showroom to display the product and have very aggressive advertising it just won't fly.  I also don't think that is what people are looking for in this community, otherwise everyone would just be shopping at Quadratec...

Now that being said, I don't think the value of a well setup website to showcase your existing products should be overlooked.  In this day and age, I think a good website can propel a company to the next level.  Make sure there are lots of pictures (Good professional pictures) of the product itself, but also applied to its application (ie: bumper mounted to a jeep).  If you don't have the vehicles yourselves to do it with, I'm sure one of your many supporters would let you strap on a bumper to take some shots of it.  But people want to be able to see what the end result will be before they fork over the cash.

So again, without a lot of knowledge on the products that people need/want most often, in a general statement I would say use some of the ideas people on here have given you, design something that works and keep that blueprint on hand.  Then when an order comes it, its a simple process of cutting the parts on the plasma table and having them welded/put together.  I think the key here is to make things that you can duplicate easily.  Doing custom for every customer is way too time consuming.  Streamline the process and you will be able to get more product out quicker.

Hope that doesn't sound like I'm talking out my a$$ too much.  Sounds like the company has a lot of respect from people from this club/forum.  Definitely a good base to build from.


Oh, and since it is up in the discussion...I would like to see a nice simple stubby bumper with welded d-ring mounts and ready for a winch...it isn't something that is going on right away, but its on my wishlist.  I know there are a pile of them available out there...would just prefer to buy local.

[EVOLUTION]

This is probably going to be unpopular.. but oh well.

How many bumpers do you think the manufacturers sell?  You seriously think someone is going to have them on the shelf so you can just walk in and grab one (or order online).  The market for aftermarket jeep parts especially big dollar items like good suspensions or well built bumpers is relatively small.  Most of the shops building the stuff we buy are small and can't afford to have a ton of cash tied up in inventory.  I just don't think it would be viable for most of them to stock a ton of stuff. 

The other thing I'd like to point out is, as Bnine has already said in his ever so delicate way... most jeepers are cheap assed to a fault.  I buy and sell a fair amount of stuff... and the number of people who are "gonna be right over" to pick something up ... or "should have money" next week is astounding.  I know it's part of the game but it really does get frustrating when people won't keep their commitments or try to talk you down on an already low priced item.   I can only imagine how much worse it is for shops... guys that come in and talk and talk and talk ... and then don't buy anything.   I know personally of guys who would rather not even sell their old parts cause its such a hassle... and other guys like Gearhead who take the "don't wast my time or squirt me off" approach.   I'll probably keep buying and selling stuff cause the horse trading is kind of fun to me and I get a kick out of being able to help out a fellow club member get their junk back on the road.   I don't how ever believe for a minute that Jeepers inherent cheapness and dreams bigger than their wallet mentality is going to change.

I would love to have a shop that had everything that I want on hand for instant delivery... but I realize that its probably just not practical.

you must own a business!  I can't tell you how many times I've been duped into ordering something for a customer who begged me they would pay for it because they really need it NOW... and then here I am stuck with it in the shop and money out of my pocket gone.  That is why I only accept payment for aftermarket products before I order... I dont care anymore how much in a hurry someone is because it bites me every time.  And yes, I have to say having the money to have inventory is very hard.  That's why we don't have inventory and I think that's why Clay went to the custom approach, because he could build it as needed.  It's not like he LOVES to do custom work... some days he absolutely despises it... and 99% of the time it doesn't make you any money after you're finished.... it sure looks cool though

[dunl]

Well, I'll have another go here at this seeing the direction this thread has taken.

I can understand the frustration of people trying to order something intangible because it is either in the States, months away, or just a picture on the net or in a catalog.

I can also understand not being able to store that much inventory. Anyone who has ever worked for any business should be able to give in to that too.

In my brief years being around the different forums here in Alberta, one thing remains the same, over and over again.  The majority of guys who get into fabricating on the side don't do it for long.  They design something, the starving (and I literally mean starving) crowd of custom-parts-deprived jeep junkies jump all over it, orders start flying, product gets out, it's cheap, it looks good, it works, more orders, and then........it all comes crashing down. 

None of these poor guys can keep up with the demands of what is being asked for. They get completely overwhelmed.  What seemed to be a good idea doing a few jobs on the side turned into a "fulltime and 6 month backorder now".  But what does this show?

If you can produce a good product, you will sell it here. Take some of these guys overall points and combine it with the cauti ous  points about inventory, and you have a problem you should be able to solve.  Produce a good set of standard parts like bumpers, tow points, and sliders, and BE ABLE TO PRODUCE THEM. REGULARLY. That's the bread and butter that will grow your business.
Design something simple - functional - bolt on - cheap to make - easy to build - strong as hell - utilitarian (we call it good looking).  Something that anyone dumber than a monkey can weld, and you'd have to be to break it. Nothing fancy or complicated.  Maybe a simple but sharp logo for Evolution that you could cut out on each piece without too much extra cost or time.

The when it's running, hire some welders to build those things for you and take the time to do the fancy stuff.

Once you get going,