Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Land Issues, Trail Projects & Trail Stewardship => Topic started by: 01sahara on September 08, 2009, 06:45:34 PM
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Trail project on September 19th. Ghost FLUZ. We need to install some fencing at last years bridge site. Approximately 18-20 fence posts.
In need volunteers with: hammers, wire cutters, shovels, pry bars, and any available equipment for drilling post holes. The ground is rocky and it will be hard work. Does anyone have access to one of the two man gas augers? If we can get two augers even better.
Please wear appropriate personal protective equipment for a day of work: boots, gloves, and appropriate clothing.
Meeting place: the Waiparous Creek Campground on Saturday AM 9:00.
I will likely be camped out in the Campground on the friday night.
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Hmmmm.... I might be up for some camping, too. I'll lend a hand. I just need to double check with my calendar.
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augers and rocky ground do not mix. A post pounder is what you need. Srd did have one a couple of years ago. Home desspot did have them for rent as well as rogers rentals.
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augers and rocky ground do not mix. A post pounder is what you need. Srd did have one a couple of years ago. Home desspot did have them for rent as well as rogers rentals.
I have been waiting for the ASRD post pounder all summer, its not going to be available for this project. Any idea on the rental cost of one?
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ill be available to help out, and can even give a rides out for some gas money, but i cant stay the night. just where is this or does someone want to meet and head out en mass?
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I wish that I could be there to watch Trevor unleash his badger in a digging frenzy, but it looks like I'm going to be in Iran. Right now I'm hoping to get back onshore on 20th, back to Dubai on the 21st, and on a plane to Cowtown on the 22nd. My fingers (claws?) are crossed.
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im in unless theboss sends me away for work .. ill let you know the week of.
but im pretty sure i can bee there
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I was also reminded we left a pile of old timbers from the damaged bridge at the site last year. We need to clear this mess up. Some of the material could be burned, weather permitting. Some will need to be hauled out as it was old treated lumber. If there are a few volunteers with trucks or trailers suitable for the trail they would be helpful. Also chainsaws and / or a generator with power tools to cut up some of the scrap pile.
Thanks,
Blair
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as long as i am in town count me in!
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I will not have time tomorrow to check on rental prices but will on Friday or Saturday. Will have to pick up a receiver ball to tow it out as well.
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I think that I might be able to help out. I can bring my RIGID recip saw and like 6 batteries...should last a little while. Also have some hand tools. I will even bring a cooler with lots of water, and maybe my BBQ if anyone wants to bring burgers or something.
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I'll be there on Sat. the 19th
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I'll be there too!
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i'll bring the Dodge out Blair. its not sellin anyway ;) we can load up most of that crap in the back and it shouldn't be a problem to get it out. i can't remember exactely, but it shouldn't be a problem to get a quad cab out there right? (its 4wd and has 33s :D)
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i'll bring the Dodge out Blair. its not sellin anyway ;) we can load up most of that crap in the back and it shouldn't be a problem to get it out. i can't remember exactely, but it shouldn't be a problem to get a quad cab out there right? (its 4wd and has 33s :D)
Glad you can join us.
It should be fine to get in there. Ron is grabing the fence posts that are in town on the Thursday. I will have 10 other post to pick up from the storage yard in the Ghost. We will also have some scrap to haul out at the end of the day.
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Pm,d you sahara regarding details on post pounder.
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Update
It looks like things are moving forward well. Andy has got us a line on a post pounder at a reasonable price. Thanks for your efforts Andy! There areaprox 11 of us that will likely be there. More is always better. We can work the final details out at the meeting on Wed. I am going to move the meet time back to 9:30 at the campground. (previously 9:00) as the post pounder will need to be picked up in Springbank that morning at 8:00.
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i will be there! sat morning
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I am going to try and be there Blair as well
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not to be a pest blair but whats the timeline on this do you figure?
aka back by dinner on saturday possibly?
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not to be a pest blair but whats the timeline on this do you figure?
aka back by dinner on saturday possibly?
You can come and pick me up,.. and we'll make sure the post will be in and you'll be able to go for Dinner.
My Jeep is missing a few parts.. like a tire and a door...
can you give me a ride bud?
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You can come and pick me up,.. and we'll make sure the post will be in and you'll be able to go for Dinner.
My Jeep is missing a few parts.. like a tire and a door...
can you give me a ride bud?
We will do our best. The more bodies the faster it will go.
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Sounds like I might have a friend joining me.
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You can come and pick me up,.. and we'll make sure the post will be in and you'll be able to go for Dinner.
My Jeep is missing a few parts.. like a tire and a door...
can you give me a ride bud?
no problem Dom. I understand lol. my jeeps sick too........
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Kool Thanks man... I'll send you my cell # on a PM or come over for a brewski
so where do we go get that post ponder and when do we have to bring it back?... Ideally it would be for a day only.... so Johny and I might have to leave early to bring it back to Town.
Blair.. did you get the details from Andy?... we have to do that soon to make sure we have the equipment for the week-end.
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Kool Thanks man... I'll send you my cell # on a PM or come over for a brewski
so where do we go get that post ponder and when do we have to bring it back?... Ideally it would be for a day only.... so Johny and I might have to leave early to bring it back to Town.
Blair.. did you get the details from Andy?... we have to do that soon to make sure we have the equipment for the week-end.
Andy has the contact info. It can be picked up Sat AM and returned Sunday AM.
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Since we are leaving early in Sat. AM ....Can it be picked up Friday evening and brought back Sat. evening?
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Yes the post pounder can be picked up Friday night before 5pm and returned Saturday night by 5pm . It is booked to pick up at 8 am by spring bank airport. You need a 2 inch ball on a hitch and there are no trailer lights and it weighs less then 1000 pounds. I need a receiver with a drop and a 2 inch ball if i pick it up Saturday morning and drop it of Sunday morning after nine am. I have room for a passenger for Saturday morning. Need credit card to pick up.
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I am in for sure.
Camping for the 2 nights (Friday, and Saturday, coming home Sunday). Anyone else camping?
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I am in for sure.
Camping for the 2 nights (Friday, and Saturday, coming home Sunday). Anyone else camping?
I am with my 10 year old this time.
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Chris and I might be up for this... I'll chat with him tonight. If so, we'll likely camp Fri-Sat nights.
Not sure if we'll be at the meeting tomorrow as his parents are in town.
Kristen
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ohhhhhhhhhhhhh crap..... she signed up. :)
finally got a Jeep, missy?
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Chris and I might be up for this... I'll chat with him tonight. If so, we'll likely camp Fri-Sat nights.
Not sure if we'll be at the meeting tomorrow as his parents are in town.
Kristen
Great!
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ohhhhhhhhhhhhh crap..... she signed up. :)
finally got a Jeep, missy?
Hahaha...
Yup! Got a nice little YJ. Needs a little work but runs great!
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Chris and I will be there for sure! Let us know where you plan on camping (which campground).
See you this weekend!
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Chris and I will be there for sure! Let us know where you plan on camping (which campground).
See you this weekend!
We will be in the camp ground on the east side of the road. The entrance is accross from the one were you camped with us last year. I will be out there Friday evening with the Black TJ & my tent trailer. See you there.
Blair
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um... :-[ so i just realized that i have no idea how to get there... :-[ anyone leaving from calgary that i can follow?
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or can we meet somewhere?
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I'll be heading out Friday after work. Will be in Cochrane around 6ish. I will be stopping for gas, and a coffee. Timmy's at 6ish work for you? I will be in a black XJ... it might be a little hard to miss.
Dana, if that works better for you, let me know.
T
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I 'm going to leave Calgary on Sat. morning and plan on stopping at Tim Hortons in Cochrane around 7:30. I drive a red 1990 MJ (truck) with lots of dents.
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what is the trail like. will a stock grand cherrokee make it without scratches and dents pulling a utility trailer? my trail jeeps still arnt runnin
keith
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There shouldn't be any problems, Keith. There will be a full sized Dodge pulling a post-pounder in as well.
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yep. Me and Dom are leaving sometime tomorrow morning, picking up the post pounder in Springbank at 8:00 AM and then out to waiparous.
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Just want to say that the fence building was a success. It was fun working with all you hooligans. Thanks to Dom for the new Dic...I mean nickname..LOL
The paint is all gone.NBD. The post pounder was a great advantage and saved us a pile of time. Hope all you guys camping didn't freeze too bad.
Joey
ps. anyone with pics pls forward to
[email protected]
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great day out at waiparous. that post pounder made everything go so smooth. fence is up, looks great, all the other crap was hauled out. thanks to Joey for being a good sport (TREVOR +paint = bad) and cooking up burgs for everyone!
PS Andy, i have your hitch. let me kjnow what wil work for you to pick itu p
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Here are some pics
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0080.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0090.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0150.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0190.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0200.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0211.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0241.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0271.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0281.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0291.jpg?rev=0)
(http://photoshare.shaw.ca/image/9/5/c/198088/preview_0321.jpg?rev=0)
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Looks like some great work! I'm sorry that I missed it :(
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Great weekend!
We didn't get TOO cold... although we did get rained out this morning! (Thanks Blair for the hot coffee and shelter this morning!)
I will get some pictures off my camera later today.
K.
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What a shame that's it's come down to putting barb wire fences every where people shouldn't be wheeling in the first place. I find the fences and other deterrents equally as offensive to look at as the scars careless people leave behind. When I think back to the years that Meadow Creek was still a pristine valley with just one hard bottomed trail to run, it almost makes me want to puke with the way things look now.
Sentiments aside: good job guys and gals.
PS. but don't kid yourself, they'll still never add more 4x4 trails to the system in a reasonable time frame. I know that, because it's dam near been 5 years since GAMP and still not a thing, and that is far beyond the reasonable time frame. They probably still need to form a few more committees over the next 5 years to access everything. (again)
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did anyone happen to pick up my hammers? i yellow 5 lb sledge and a red framing hammer?
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Chris picked them up for ya.
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Thank you to all that came out to help. Great Job Everyone.
Thanks,
Blair
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Here's a link to some pictures I posted on FB:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=313414&id=756385304&l=49afc9b654
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Was going to ask what the sign said and then followed the FB link. Nice looking job.
I agree that needing a fence in the first place is pretty sad. But it's going to happen even if all the wheelers from Calgary and area were responsible. Think about it. You've got a population of over a million people from just Calgary. With the amount of traffic that's out there it's going wear down trails a LOT more than in the past.
Can notice that in other places too. I grew up in Grande Cache and you can notice how rutted out all the places that are quad accessible from people's backyards and that are close to the the highway (even the alleys are chewed up). Once you pass the halfway point of a quad's gas tank you notice trails are pretty pristine. Simple numbers game. More tires = more damage. Get a couple of tools in the mix and stuff goes downhill fast and adds a lot of bad media too.
Really all the clubs can do is show that we care and are trying to make it right. Hopefully those in charge of things side with our views.
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I have to agree with Gun on his comment about the fences, they look like crap. Not the quality of the work, good job on that guys, just the fact that they are needed. I'm glad something was finally done about the top of that hill though, I was sure someone was gonna die there. There are a lot more projects needed out there and I hope/know you will keep up the great work. BUT, there are a PILE of trails out there that we could be using that require little to no work( had to stick that one in there just for Rick to pass on to Ted). :-[
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I'm glad something was finally done about the top of that hill though, I was sure someone was gonna die there. :-[
Are you referring to the three short fairly steep climbs on the hillside just above the new bridge? What was done there? Are those climbs still accessible to users?
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Are you referring to the three short fairly steep climbs on the hillside just above the new bridge? What was done there? Are those climbs still accessible to users?
The three northern shoots are still un-fenced Tom. (ASRD policy when asked, those are off trail).
The two southern ones became impassible and dangerous so were fenced off. Give me a call if you have any questions.
Blair
607-7354
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Thanks Blair, haven't been out to Waiparous in awhile so I'm out of touch with recent changes. Guess I'll take a run out on Lost Knife and onto Meadow Creek to have a look some time soon - the fall colours should be out in all their glory.
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The three northern shoots are still un-fenced Tom. (ASRD policy when asked, those are off trail). - quoting Blair
That is ridiculous, even when I think I'm on a legitimate trail - I'm off trail. I assume that all the little climbs, obstacles, and trenches that are next to a named trail are apart of that trail and legitimate for use, everyone I have wheeled with also has this assumption. I guess we all are guilty of being off trail. I don't think I've wheeled with anyone who has stuck strictly to the main trail and not played on the climbs/obstacles that are apart of the trail (these little extras have been there long before I started wheelin' ).
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What a shame that's it's come down to putting barb wire fences every where people shouldn't be wheeling in the first place. I find the fences and other deterrents equally as offensive to look at as the scars careless people leave behind. When I think back to the years that Meadow Creek was still a pristine valley with just one hard bottomed trail to run, it almost makes me want to puke with the way things look now.
Sentiments aside: good job guys and gals.
PS. but don't kid yourself, they'll still never add more 4x4 trails to the system in a reasonable time frame. I know that, because it's dam near been 5 years since GAMP and still not a thing, and that is far beyond the reasonable time frame. They probably still need to form a few more committees over the next 5 years to access everything. (again)
Agreed with many points you've spoken of over the years.
Respected your experience, dedication, and general sincerity.
However, some of the old ways, old techniques, old thoughts, etc... have evolved. As has our recreational sport, how we do it, why we do it and who does it.
A fence looks ugly to 10-15 people that drive by it. Me included.
100 others drive by it not even knowing or noticing why it is in place.
Some drunks may live another day to breed more idiots due to the fence preventing them from tough guy antics... who knows...
Point is, unfortunately, we desperately need to change the way trails are maintained, rules created, rules enforced, education delivery, but more importantly, how to be a responsible human being. Something like this cannot be taught on a trail, it's something that is taught and grows inside you as a child. Many people these days don't have it. We need to evolve to grow with this, or be taken down by the idiocracy.
In order to add more trails we need to evolve our thinking and our trail system to be sustainable with this new generation, and those ahead of them.
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the scars careless people leave behind.
One more thing...Our current and future generation of outdoor recreationalists are not to blame for past actions, or lack there of.
We are simply here to carry on what the past has taught us, which currently, is how to not be sustainable for future generations.
Almost starting from scratch, we need to move on.
Some helpful insight, thoughtful recommendations, words of wisdom, guidance, leadership could really be used in this battlefield we are faced with today.
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One more thing...Our current and future generation of outdoor recreationalists are not to blame for past actions, or lack there of.
We are simply here to carry on what the past has taught us, which currently, is how to not be sustainable for future generations.
Almost starting from scratch, we need to move on.
Some helpful insight, thoughtful recommendations, words of wisdom, guidance, leadership could really be used in this battlefield we are faced with today.
Well said!
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Agreed with many points you've spoken of over the years.
Respected your experience, dedication, and general sincerity.
However, some of the old ways, old techniques, old thoughts, etc... have evolved. As has our recreational sport, how we do it, why we do it and who does it.
A fence looks ugly to 10-15 people that drive by it. Me included.
100 others drive by it not even knowing or noticing why it is in place.
Some drunks may live another day to breed more idiots due to the fence preventing them from tough guy antics... who knows...
Point is, unfortunately, we desperately need to change the way trails are maintained, rules created, rules enforced, education delivery, but more importantly, how to be a responsible human being. Something like this cannot be taught on a trail, it's something that is taught and grows inside you as a child. Many people these days don't have it. We need to evolve to grow with this, or be taken down by the idiocracy.
In order to add more trails we need to evolve our thinking and our trail system to be sustainable with this new generation, and those ahead of them.
I was in the middle of responding to some of this when I read it this morning but I think this website has a words maximum and all was lost. This is probably a good thing though as quick responses without thought can be easily misinterpreted over the internet sometimes.
I am getting so sick of the new phrase that SRD uses to its fullest but doesn’t even stick to or for that matter obviously understand. “Sustainable Trail System” They use if for absolutely everything they need to deal with. The one reason I’m sick of it is they’ve told us that the seismic lines, logging roads, and exploration roads are not a sustainable trail system. I’ve been around long enough to know the trails very well in the Ghost and Waiparous area. I’ll be willing to bet that 80%, maybe more of the trails they designated to the quads and bikes are the very roads they tell us are not sustainable. I guess they are not sustainable to 4x4’s having used them for so many years but they are now to bikes and quads. Make up your mind!!!!!! For one thing, how much more sustainable can you get when a trail has been around for some 40-60 years. Do you honestly think the barb wire fences, bridges, and what ever else we add as supposed improvements will last as long as the trail did till now. They do their trail inventory shortly after a 50 year flood and put the soul blame on reckless 4x4 use. If doing their inventory the way it was carried out for GAMP I would imagine they would claim highway 1 is also not sustainable, after all it washes out or gets covered with avalanches every year.
I hope we’re not asked to cover for the short fall the government has taken with enforcement and are now asked to barb wire each and every trail because some drunk may loose their life. Driving while under the influence has been, is now, and most likely always will be illegal. Don’t clutter up the trails with garbage looking fences just to deal with them. I’m sure they were just an example for your explanation but I’ll never get to liking all the signs, and fences we’ve been asked to put up. Some is necessary but I don’t have to like it.
One more thing...Our current and future generation of outdoor recreationalists are not to blame for past actions, or lack there of.
We are simply here to carry on what the past has taught us, which currently, is how to not be sustainable for future generations.
Almost starting from scratch, we need to move on.
Some helpful insight, thoughtful recommendations, words of wisdom, guidance, leadership could really be used in this battlefield we are faced with today.
Frenchy, the above comment is a good one. How far back might you be referring to with this accusation? 20-30 years ago maybe? Lets see, 31’s were a big tire, a welded diff was a modification that only a few dared to do, engine size modification was a chevy 350 and articulation, what the hell was articulation back then. All we cared about, was how far can I go off camber before I roll. All the heavily modified rigs of today, along with the disrespectful people behind some of them, and the who gives a crap attitude of todays society are the ones to blame for the scars left behind by some that I refer to. If you care to put the onus on the generations before yours I’d have to agree to some degree. That’s the generation that thought a spanking was a criminal offense so the generations that followed now show that lack of respect….for everything.
I’ve maintained the same idea for the last few years and still stick to that. If ASRD wants to show some good faith by adding some trails back, I’ll be more than willing to help you folks out with projects again, as I’m sure about 100 people would quickly join in as well.
I would however be willing to head up something of my own. I think it might be a worth while project, and I think it would be an opportunity to put up or shut up. I think things should be picked up a notch by testing the legitimacy of ASRD’s FLUZ policy. I’d be willing to set up a multi group run for clubs that are willing to get involved. Club members only, as they are the only ones that show commitment and have something to loose if things don’t work out. I’d be willing to set up a day of runs on anything other than designated trails. Everyone participating puts up $100 cash as a bond and future legal fees. If in that day of runs, anybody gets ticketed the money goes to fight the charge in court. If by chance your ticket comes from illegal substance or doing something completely irresponsible the $100 gets kept because you’ve now become a liability to the intent on the project. If how ever you get charged for being on a trail not designated then the money goes towards a legal case for our trails and saving them.
I know those working with ASRD on projects won’t be able to comment on participating because I’m sure ASRD would be very reluctant to work with any group taking them to court, those comments can be PM’d to me if you need to.
I’ve offered to put up money before to both the AB4WD and on a discussion on the Four Wheel Stampeder site, and I’ll do that again here. If something like this gets off the ground I’d be willing to put $1000 towards legal fees again.
As I have stated both times before though too, if I’m in the middle of a legal case due to trail issues at the time then offer is revoked. Time to put up or shut up.
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Blair...buddy...come on...surely you can do better than that in a discussion.
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I would however be willing to head up something of my own. I think it might be a worth while project, and I think it would be an opportunity to put up or shut up. I think things should be picked up a notch by testing the legitimacy of ASRD’s FLUZ policy. I’d be willing to set up a multi group run for clubs that are willing to get involved. Club members only, as they are the only ones that show commitment and have something to loose if things don’t work out. I’d be willing to set up a day of runs on anything other than designated trails. Everyone participating puts up $100 cash as a bond and future legal fees. If in that day of runs, anybody gets ticketed the money goes to fight the charge in court. If by chance your ticket comes from illegal substance or doing something completely irresponsible the $100 gets kept because you’ve now become a liability to the intent on the project. If how ever you get charged for being on a trail not designated then the money goes towards a legal case for our trails and saving them.
So in short your idea is to try and get as many club members to wheel illegally and try and bait SRD and the fish and wildlife people. If we get caught then we can drag it through the courts where it will get a lot of press and more trail will be shut down because we will just be proving what SRD is saying, people are being irresponsible and wheeling on closed trails. Unfortunately SRD is the end of the road in Alberta right now and has final say, the attitude of "I wheeled this 10,20,30 years ago" or "I'll wheel this land until F&W/landowners kick me off" is the kind of attitude that is detrimental to the cause right now.
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So in short your idea is to try and get as many club members to wheel illegally and try and bait SRD and the fish and wildlife people. If we get caught then we can drag it through the courts where it will get a lot of press and more trail will be shut down because we will just be proving what SRD is saying, people are being irresponsible and wheeling on closed trails. Unfortunately SRD is the end of the road in Alberta right now and has final say, the attitude of "I wheeled this 10,20,30 years ago" or "I'll wheel this land until F&W/landowners kick me off" is the kind of attitude that is detrimental to the cause right now.
Is it "illegal" ?
Are the rules written in a way that any decent lawyer could rip right through them?
Were those rules created with flawed research and mickey mouse science? Created by a group of people who were raised indoors, or have "other agendas"?
Is this why ASRD has yet to write any fines relating to the new trail rules?
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Speaking of quick responses....
Gunther, do you actually do anything on web forums other than berate people for trail projects, or trying in their own way to make a difference? I don't know you, and you don't know me, but I can't recall a posting of yours in Land Issues Discussions where you didn't berate people or clubs for what they have done or tried to do.
I'm sure you're bitter about the past, but.....we're not all living in it. At least some are trying to make a difference....instead of sitting on the sidelines and heckling. From what I have heard of you, it's all spoken with the greatest respect. Honestly.
But honestly....that must have been from another time because right now you're showing very little for the efforts of these guys.
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Sometimes a quick response is neccessary, before they're forgotten. :P
dunl, if it were't for old farts like me with a hate on for trail closures then all you young whippers wouldn't remember anything beyond yesterday. I think its just as improtant to remind people that this government with the influence of ASRD can not be trusted when trails come to the table.
If it weren't for the constant reminders, some people would see no issues and think the ASRD are doing all they can to get us new trails.
Not once in all my years have I seen a trail been added to the 4x4 community. Take a quick browse through the Protected places section of the Alberta web siteand you'll see how they continue to hammer our access. If you give in too quickly they'll continue to take even quicker.
I've wheeled with many of these folks, they do know who I am and have met me. They should know by now there is no disrespect toward them or thier efforts. Its just efforts gone lost though, to a government that is after only one thing. Eventual closure to all 4x4's.
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I'm a teacher....unlike you "old farts", as you put it, I realize that the younger generation is JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. Times change...not necessarily people.
We're not old, so we don't understand, right? ::)
So do you actually have a suggestion, instead of asking people to try and get involved in a court case, and prove SRD is right? Let me make it clearer....instead of complaining, how are you helping? Like Frenchy suggested, some leadership would be helpful.
Or are we all supposed to sit back and complain that it is useless?
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Frenchy, the above comment is a good one. How far back might you be referring to with this accusation? 20-30 years ago maybe?
Right about the time they had to shut down the first trail, park or general area to 4x4's. I don't know why they were closed, but I'm sure something else could've been done instead.
Wasn't pointed only at you. I'm sure there was a fight, but more importantly, the government...
Just imagine how much happier all the users would be if 30 years ago they started mapping, planning, designating trails, maintenance, etc.. Instead of simply shutting stuff down.
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Just imagine how much happier all the users would be if 30 years ago they started mapping, planning, designating trails, maintenance, etc.. Instead of simply shutting stuff down.
And just imagine how much happier users would be if ASRD took thier attention away from the those 8' wide trails that meander through the back country to some favorite fishing holes and hunting spots and channeled their energy to slowing down the 5 star hotel developments, golf courses, ski hills and paved campsites. Ah yes but those are filling thier pockets quicker so why bother them.
dunl, people only want leadership in the way they want to travel. Anything out of that comfort zone is not looked at as leadership.
Helping , well I think I've chipped in here and there a little bit, and I think bringing some of this stuff to light is helping a bit too.
Complaining , nothing to say about that for you.
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i'll chime in. :)
i will state that this is not a knock on any volunteer that has been seduced into helping build a mythical trail of sustainability. i too had spent money and time prior to GAMP and the net result is what we now have 5 years later. Volunteers RAWK! i have nothing but respect for anyone that volunteers to do anything on this planet we call Earth.
The CJA continues to spend countless hours in an area that is closed. In 5 years through all your efforts, you have received NOTHING in return.
Your bridges are now considered a legal liability to SRD and we the users may be forced to somehow get liability insurance to use those bridges. Is that really true? Can someone confirm that.
Leadership. i have commented in the past and i will do it again tonight. Maclean Creek is LEGAL and open to 4x4's. A designated trail system has been established with one criteria, it needs to be proven to SRD that 2-3 years from now that the trails given to us are indeed sustainable.
Maclean Creek is closed in the Winter so the window of opportunity to volunteer and make sure the trails are sustainable and will remain sustainable is rather small. So why are you guys so hell bent on being in Waiporous that is closed and not in Maclean which is open?
Am i missing something here? Seriously, i do not understand.
5 years from now, you will have nothing more in Waiporous and Maclean will be severely reduced as it needs help NOW.
Why are you not in Maclean?
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Gunther...buddy...come on...surely you can do better than that in a discussion.
You have nothing to add....just more complaining about SRD. No suggestions on where you think people should direct their efforts, instead of explaining why they shouldn't? ???
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Tom....nice to see at least you have a direction you feel people should be headed in. 8)
pfft...maybe I'm just tired from work listening to the same....people complaining, but no answers when asked what to do instead. Drives me crazy. ::)
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i'll chime in. :)
i will state that this is not a knock on any volunteer that has been seduced into helping build a mythical trail of sustainability. i too had spent money and time prior to GAMP and the net result is what we now have 5 years later. Volunteers RAWK! i have nothing but respect for anyone that volunteers to do anything on this planet we call Earth.
The CJA continues to spend countless hours in an area that is closed. In 5 years through all your efforts, you have received NOTHING in return.
Your bridges are now considered a legal liability to SRD and we the users may be forced to somehow get liability insurance to use those bridges. Is that really true? Can someone confirm that.
Leadership. i have commented in the past and i will do it again tonight. Maclean Creek is LEGAL and open to 4x4's. A designated trail system has been established with one criteria, it needs to be proven to SRD that 2-3 years from now that the trails given to us are indeed sustainable.
Maclean Creek is closed in the Winter so the window of opportunity to volunteer and make sure the trails are sustainable and will remain sustainable is rather small. So why are you guys so hell bent on being in Waiporous that is closed and not in Maclean which is open?
Am i missing something here? Seriously, i do not understand.
5 years from now, you will have nothing more in Waiporous and Maclean will be severely reduced as it needs help NOW.
Why are you not in Maclean?
There is a project planed for October In McLean. TFA has been issued. Lots of stuff to do we just have to have more users step up to lead the projects that are needed and find ways to fund them. The leaders of the Mclean project will be posting soon.
The Ghost work this past weekend was needed to fulfill part of the grant requirements for the bridge. Some of us had our names on the line for the money and needed to complete what had been started. More leaders are needed to get the Mclean area projects started.
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Its an emotionally charged subject. AURS had Volunteer days in Waiporous and Maclean every year. One year we set the North American record for the largest volunteer turnout. Hundreds helped.
After SRD backstabbed us, many 4x4 enthusiasts just gave up. It was a really low point in all of our lives. Many friends sold their rigs and bought quads or bikes instead. Camping and trail riding was on the down low.
When Indian Graves was shut down, that for most of us was the final nail in the coffin.
Many of us vowed to never help do one thing in Waiporous ever again. Many of us remain committed to this vow.
One trail opened will do nothing to change my feelings.
The bike community has submitted one trail to GSMG. We will see where that goes. As the bike community knows, 4x4's in Waiporous got more trail than single track riders got. Yes, we can ride quad (formerly truck) trails but that is akin to taking your jeep to the mall.
So, even in the bike community, Waiporous has been a hard sell. Maclean has been alive with dirtbikers making every singletrack trail sustainable. Start looking around next time you are there. Only bike trails have been posted with signage. Every trail we have has been cleared of blow down. We have built over 100 bridges, skeg mats, up and overs (bridges over cattle fencing), etc.
And yes i know that it is MUCH easier to build things for bikes. But, if Maclean was attacked the way you guys attacked Waiporous over the last 5 years...
One last thought. When the powers that be see what is accomplished in Maclean, they will be much more receptive to allowing real possibilities of trails in Waiporous.
When you decide to pull out of Waiporous and invest in Maclean, i will be there with you to help.
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Gunther...buddy...come on...surely you can do better than that in a discussion.
You have nothing to add....just more complaining about SRD. No suggestions on where you think people should direct their efforts, instead of explaining why they shouldn't? ???
I take it you’re blind to the ideas I’ve suggested because they aren’t the suggestions you want to here. If you think I’m going to get on here and cheer on ASRD for a job well done you’re sadly mistaken. If you haven’t been around long enough to realize the work put into the areas from many past active people, and that, with a relationship that we thought was going well with ASRD, then you need to be educated on that part of the past.
As Spinalguy has stated, when that GAMP map got rolled out the first time, and the 4x4 community had a chance to view it, we got kicked in the bag hard.
Right now, and maybe you included, there’s a bunch of new people coming into this recreation that have known nothing but the 5 trails in Waiparous. I can see that when I read the trail write ups on this board and see how enthused they are about doing the Lost Knife Trail. I would be too, if it were my first time out.
I too have submitted a trail proposal about 2 years ago or more. A dry trail with no creeks what so ever. They had no interest, and I’m sure that’s what we’ll hear each time.
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Okay, maybe I missed your suggestions. But your missing my point, so as one of the "younger" crowd, let me point it out to you:
It's not considered respectful, in good taste, or what us "younger generation" refer to as "proper netiquette" to repeatedly bring up how futile you think the CJA's efforts are for the good work they ARE doing on their own board.
That's all I am saying. The CJA has decided to go this route. And if I was on their Exec, it's quite possible that I might not agree, or I might....I'd have to be involved to know where I'd stand with them. But I'm not, so I won't sit around and tell them it's wrong....especially not here on their board.
Is there something that your group is actively doing right now? And do you have someone coming onto your website and repeatedly telling you that it's the wrong thing, over and over again?
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Is there something that your group is actively doing right now? And do you have someone coming onto your website and repeatedly telling you that it's the wrong thing, over and over again?
Basically most other groups have given up on these areas... and the government. Everyone goes on trails in other places and keeps it secret so that the government is not aware of the location of the trails.
Between Mclean and Waiparous, there are maybe 10% to 20% of the amount of trails needed to be sustainable for the Calgary region. All the trails are being very quickly destroyed and no amount of project can save them. The only solution to save them is to open (reopen) a large area. If a proper Waiparous map had been created, it might be large enough. Most of the 4WD "roads" that they closed and left open to quads were seeing no damage in the past from truck use. The closures are the cause of the damage. But, I assume, you never wheeled in Waiparous and have no idea what the real trails look like.....The remaining 4wd "trails" are just some roads.
Convince SRD to open Mclean and Waiparous in the winter when the ground is frozen and close them during spring breakup. That is a simple thing that can not be argued factually as caring for the trails. If they did that, maybe we could believe they don't really want to ban us completely.....
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Okay, maybe I missed your suggestions. But your missing my point, so as one of the "younger" crowd, let me point it out to you:
? And do you have someone coming onto your website and repeatedly telling you that it's the wrong thing, over and over again?
Yes, I rag on there more than you'll ever know with the private section.
Feel free to visit often though and be that other person.
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Way to miss the point. ;)
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yes Gunner I,m bitter as well.
For the first time Alberta we have 5 designated 4x4 trails in the waiporus that are open year round. Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
And yes I am proud that i have done my little part in vol enterring in waiporous and will do so again in the future as I have done in the past.
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yes Gunner I,m bitter as well. But I do not have family who are entrenched in the legal system , nor do i have enough money for a constitutional challenge at the Alberta court of Queen,s bench level. However.
For the first time Alberta we have 5 designated 4x4 trails in the waiporus that are open year round. Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
And yes I am proud that i have done my little part in vol enterring in waiporous and will do so again in the future as I have done in the past.
Nice try Andy. You don't have to have family anywhere. You just have to feel very strongly about and unjustified closure to a specific user group all across this province and all in the hands of ASRD misguiding the public and directing the Alberta government towards total closure to 4x4's. Hey if you feel fine with those 5 trails, you have fun with that. I'm sure you'll be able to enjoy those same five trails for many years to come.
I felt proud about volunteering for many years Andy. I know that feeling.But after the roll out of GAMP and seeing all the past closures and where things are headed I'm sure having a great deal of trouble holding my head up high when I'm taking a run in the back country now.
So are you still getting hours in with that contractor running heavy equipment to reclaim trails or are you back to dry walling again? I’m just curious, because I might need a dry waller one day, but the other I can’t use right now.
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yes Gunner I,m bitter as well. But I do not have family who are entrenched in the legal system , nor do i have enough money for a constitutional challenge at the Alberta court of Queen,s bench level. However.
For the first time Alberta we have 5 designated 4x4 trails in the waiporus that are open year round. Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
And yes I am proud that i have done my little part in vol enterring in waiporous and will do so again in the future as I have done in the past.
Are you the one (or worked for him) who billed the gubment some ridiculous amount of cash for 100' of trail in maclean?
PS. You spelled Waiparous wrong, twice ;D
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Previous they where designated snow mobile trails in the winter and truck trails in the summer.
Umm, no... Previously, you could use them or any trails at any time.
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Frenchy, no I don't think its the same contractor. From what I was told last year, he's been hired to do reclaim in the North Burnt Timber area east side of the trunk road. I just wanted to clear that up. :)
JohnB, from what I remember about 30 years ago when they closed Kananaskis country to motorized, ASRD gave us a mess of trails in the Ghost /Waiparous area to use instead. At that time they told us to stay off the groomed trails due to the work involved in grooming.
There hasn't been enough snow out there for so many years they quit grooming anything out there. It was very shortly after that some of the ASRD folks were very instrumental in encouraging a few people to start the AURS. I guess ASRD can feel good about it also being destroyed by them as well.
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As a wise old man once said " if we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it". And no, it wasn't Gun, BUT it is the type of comment he IS capable of producing. Some of us,( 0.25% of the 3% of trail users who actually still use 4x4's off road[and yes, I'm making that # up, but, I'm sure it's VERY close to actuall users]), have been around long enough to know the facts. Guys like Gun, Tom, Crispy, Myself, and many others on these sites, have put in over 12, THAT'S TWELVE, years of effort into projects, and thousands, got it, thousands of dollars. Twice a year! The AURS was started after the AB4WD assoc. dropped out of site, and was supported by PAST ASRD employees. It included ALL users. And guess what, they ALL showed up for clean up days. Then a funny thing started to happen, there was nothing to clean up, we had to change the name to voulunteer days. Then The Gov. started to point fingers and cause division between the groups. The dang trucks, those dang bikes, those dang quads! And all of use dumb arses fell for it. Then to top it all off, they close off allmost all our trails! There's yer kick in the nuts! I do know Gun, very well. He is not knocking any of the effort or jobs that the voulunteers are doing. BUT, it has been done in the past, for MANY years. And, due to the fact that the Gov. wasn't prepared to put it in thier budget, it was easier to close the trails all down then face the facts, and fix it. The fact is, they laid off all thier rangers and wardens( thanks Ralph, you douche!), and things got wild. Your right, it's not the users fault, it's the GOVERNMENTS!!! I REALLY hope that your effort pays off. I've been to various work shops and field trip with ASRD, and I know they have had people up here from the U.S. to hear thier thoughts and suggestions as well. But, I personally doubt much will ever come of it becuase things are differant here and they don't want us, the responsable user, to tell them what will work here. Even if that all worked out, does anyone really think that a bunch of rednecks in 4x4's needs, really matter to the Gov.? Oops, I fergot, not many redneck in the CJA. ::) The only reason we still have Mclean, is that it is not entirely in ASRD's hands. Enjoy it while it lasts. Danm, I must be getting old, cuase I really don't give a $hit about the spelling! P.S. Another old man(it was Gun, this time), once told me, the funny thing about pointin yer finger at someone is, you have three more pointing back at you!
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I think one thing thats been over looked in this discussion is the number of people using the backcountry(for all uses) vs 20-30 years ago. Lets face it, Calgary is what 3 or 4 times bigger in population while the backcountry keeps getting smaller(I mean over all NOT just from trail closures but from our encroachment on it). More people means more demands on the backcountry and more damage. A trail that was sustainalble 20 years ago saw perhaps one group a month on it, the same trail may now see 3 groups or more on a weekend and with that use may not be sustainable. HWY 1 has been upgraded many times to keep it sustainable with the population increases.
Here's another way too look at, 1% of wheelers are idiots, 100 people using the trail 1 person does something dumb and damages the trail, not a big deal, today 1000 people use the trail, 10 of them are idiots, suddenly the damage is a lot more noticeable.
Dunl, try to this from Gun perspective. He used to be able to LEGALLY wheel in K-country, that got taken away and was told to stay in Waiporous. Then they started taking that away. Its VERY frustrating especially when we could see things DRASTICALLY improving in Waiporous due to education and volunteer days. When I was a kid(20 years ago) there were 4-6 Forest RANGERS for just Waiporous. You couldn't go out there and NOT see a green forestry truck. Last time I talked with SRD they had 3 OFFICERS for Waiporous and 2 other areas. By not funding SRD the gov't backed them into a corner and forced them to close trails. Everytime we turn around we're getting screwed.
Honestly, can anyone tell me what we've gotten back from our efforts since GAMP came out? I suppose we could thank them for not closing more trails....oh wait they did that too(Indian graves). I really don't think SRD has a clear vision of where to take mechanized back counrty use. They're just flying by the seat of their pants hoping to one day get more funding and not get sued.