Parents with wranglers

[4low]

Similar to Evil Jeep, we have an '04 Rubi and an '08 4 door JK Rubi (the "family vehicle").

We have had our soon to be 5 year old riding in the '04 since day 1. It does have LATCH and we used it, otherwise it definitely would have been more pain. Indeed, there is less luggage room, which is partly why I bought an aftermarket swing-away tire carrier/bumper which had a tray on top (rarely use it), and put one of those luggage things off of the trailer hitch when we need to haul stuff.  I haven't got creative like some people who could take 3 camping with a TJ by using stuff sacks, bungees, netting and velcro to stuff things all over the sport cage etc. Definitely we love having the 4 door when we want to go somewhere where we need to take a ton of stuff tho.  Also less reaching to put him in..  a definite benefit when he didn't want to go in.

cool, thx for the responses,
tinkerer, I think I live just down the alley from y0u, got the white sonoma, so " hi" from a neighbor!

[Spinalguy]

About anyone wheelin with an infant/child.
One of my specialties is children/infants. Also, my main expertise is structural correction.
i post this often so it is a copy/paste.

**just because you did take your kid wheelin and they 'loved' it doesn't make it safe for the future health of that child. There is a thing called Shaken Baby Syndrome and i assure you that is exactly what you are doing by taking YOUNG babies/infants wheelin**

Do not take your 6 month old wheelin no matter how 'mild' the trail may be.
Until a child is able to stabilize themselves from the constant motion of a 4x4 on a trail, they will be doing microtrauma to their cervical vertabrae/neurological development.

As a test, strap yourself into the passenger seat with a blind fold. Do not use any part of your arms/legs to stabilize yourself. Go down an EASY trail. Tell me what that was like?
Your 6 month old will be even more affected as they have no idea of what the heck is going on.

They may laugh and giggle.
They may 'survive' it as a few parents will chime in.
But as someone in a profession that sees lots of kids daily for common complaints of ear infection, constipation, growing pains and headaches, i can share with you that the number one reason is poor spinal structure.
Wheelin and infants do not mix. Please wait til they are old enough to be aware of their environment and strong enough to overcome gravity.

Cheers.

[Spinalguy]

a bit more...

my replies should be smothered with smiles as i have no desire to come across as anything but good thoughts.
Anyways, if you think about a common form of abuse, Shaken Baby Syndrome, the reason so much damage is sustained is because the baby is defenseless. They have no awareness of position sense. Also their muscular development (both voluntary and involuntary ie postural) is lacking not allowing them to  deflect forces consciously and subconsciously.

Lets say that the car seat does prevent an actual shaken baby syndrome, thankfully. But lesser forces are still being applied. The neck is the key to our health. Without boring you, lets just say that the cervical spine has the greatest number of transmitters and receivers in the entire human body. If during a trail ride the child could be filmed in slow motion, you will absolutely see that they have no control over stabilizing the environment. As a driver we have the steering wheel, as a passenger, the experience even for an adult is much more chaotic. Now, imagine being blindfolded...

Until that child is AWARE of the environment being able to BRACE themselves for the changing terrain, than they are nothing more than a rag doll being tossed around on a wheeelin adventure.

The problems start showing up in children by age 8. Headaches, low back pain and 'growing' pains are the most common complaints. This is NOT normal.

At the end of the day, is it really worth it?
0-3 yrs of age is the most crucial neurological development period. i would wait until they are over that period.

[Immortal]

Just to clarify 4low.... Spinalguy is a chiropractor...

[4low]

haha, I know, met him when he first moved to cow town with his old (sweet) TJ....ahhhh, good times....

[Spinalguy]

Yep, Mike and i have known each other for many years

The thread hijack on my part was not really answering 4lows question but it was an educational opportunity

But in answering the question...i have had a few patients over the years with jeeps. The jeep/babyseat can be done
but is not a preferred vehicle. What a few of them did, was carry their baby more often leaving the car seat in the jeep.
Its a really good bonding and if you were born prior to the 90's, chances are mom and dad carried you in their arms running errands.

[jpthing]

a bit more...

my replies should be smothered with smiles as i have no desire to come across as anything but good thoughts.
Anyways, if you think about a common form of abuse, Shaken Baby Syndrome, the reason so much damage is sustained is because the baby is defenseless. They have no awareness of position sense. Also their muscular development (both voluntary and involuntary ie postural) is lacking not allowing them to  deflect forces consciously and subconsciously.

Lets say that the car seat does prevent an actual shaken baby syndrome, thankfully. But lesser forces are still being applied. The neck is the key to our health. Without boring you, lets just say that the cervical spine has the greatest number of transmitters and receivers in the entire human body. If during a trail ride the child could be filmed in slow motion, you will absolutely see that they have no control over stabilizing the environment. As a driver we have the steering wheel, as a passenger, the experience even for an adult is much more chaotic. Now, imagine being blindfolded...

Until that child is AWARE of the environment being able to BRACE themselves for the changing terrain, than they are nothing more than a rag doll being tossed around on a wheeelin adventure.

The problems start showing up in children by age 8. Headaches, low back pain and 'growing' pains are the most common complaints. This is NOT normal.

At the end of the day, is it really worth it?
0-3 yrs of age is the most crucial neurological development period. i would wait until they are over that period.

When my kids were littler and we took them out on trails I would always makes sure to adjust the carseats so that they were leaned back a lot more, by stuffing a rolled up blanket or something behind the bottom of the seat. This seemed to be a lot more comfortable for them as they did not need to support the weight of the head with the neck muscles, rather they could just lie back, and the head is supported by the headrest.

Curious to hear spinalguy's thought on this.

[dac]

by stuffing a rolled up blanket or something behind the bottom of the seat.

It's getting away from how the seats were designed to be used.  In an accident it could be possible for things to shift and the seat to become loose.  Or, if you have to stop fast or hit something now their heads could swing more.  Like if you were in the passenger seat with the seat back trying to sleep, your torso can swing a lot further than if you're sitting upright.

I know you mean well, no one would purposely put their kids at risk but it doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Just something to consider.

[Spinalguy]

jpthing,
credit for thinking outside  the box but i have to go with dac on this one

[jpthing]

It's getting away from how the seats were designed to be used.  In an accident it could be possible for things to shift and the seat to become loose.  Or, if you have to stop fast or hit something now their heads could swing more.  Like if you were in the passenger seat with the seat back trying to sleep, your torso can swing a lot further than if you're sitting upright.

I know you mean well, no one would purposely put their kids at risk but it doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Just something to consider.

car seats are designed to protect children in  high speed impacts, not for providing comfort and body support against random minor bumps and jolts  in all different directions such as wheeling at less that 15 kph, where a high speed impact is completely impossible,  so I would not immediately dismiss the idea that a alternate setup could be better for an alternate application. additionally, the rolled up towel or blanket is actually recommended by the carseat manufacturers as a method to adjust the cheaper non adjustable carseats to the proper angle where required in some vehicles. all I am talking about is adjusting it so it is angled a little more back than the suggested "ideal" position (for high speed collisions)

spinal guy, consider the implications of this before you dismiss it. no longer do you look back to see you kid's head drifting forward and have to stop and adjust them every time you hit a bump, hit the brakes or go down a hill. Instead they are leaned back just a few extra degrees and there head is supported. Additionally, they are protected more from impact up the spine through the seat from bumps and jolts. Kind of like how if you ride a bicycle with an upright "chair" position you can damage your spine from hitting bumps but with the leaned over forward position the impact does not travel straight up your spine (although you may strain the muscles in the back of the neck from trying to look where you're going)


If you want proof that this is way less traumatic for little necks and spines, go whelling with a kid in a carseat setup normally and observe as you drive on flats, uphill, and downhill. When you go uphill, the seat tilts back a little and the head never falls forward...the kid does not have to support hthe weight of his head against every bump. when you drive downhill the kid's head can tilt forward or to the side in what is obviously a painful or damaging posture. You can drive a mild uphill trail all day long and never see even a sleeping child's head fall forward even once...just tap the brakes gently on a downhill with a sleeping child and you can practically see the muscles tearing as their little head bobs and bounces forward.

as to this position in a front seat being dangerous for adults, there is no comparison...the chilren are in a 3-point harness which prevents them from sliding forward onder the belt as an adult would.

I am not suggesting anyone setup their carseat this way for the street but for wheeling I think it is a huge improvement.

[Spinalguy]

you make sense with your answer.
But, i can not give a blessing on wheelin under 3yrs of age. Obviously many have done it with no problems (yet?) but there is always the old granny that smoked and drank daily and lived to be a 100. Not everyone can pull it off. Its a personal decision and i am just supplying some food for thought.

[dac]

OK bud, now you're just not thinking about the big picture.  You have to get to the trail right?  Usually involves driving down the highway to get there?  Accidents happen, just because you're going slow on the trail doesn't mean you won't find yourself in trouble on the way there or back.  What if one of the slight grades gives way and it happens to be right beside a drop off?  Just because you're going slow down a trail, especially in the foot hills doesn't mean you won't find yourself in a position where you're moving faster than intended.

We've already established that taking really young kids/babies offroad is a really bad idea.  Stop trying to justify it's a good idea just because you've done it.

Case in point I've had my kids out (3 and 5)  they were awake and fine till about the last half hour of the trip, then got tired and bored and fell asleep.  We were on a pretty gentle trail and their heads still bounced around more than I thought was good.  Hind sight I shouldn't have taken them out, I don't plan on doing it again until they are older.  You can drive as slow as you want, their heads are still going to sway.

And with the towel, if you're in an accident, you can't guarantee it's going to stay put under the seat no matter how tight you get the seat straps.  When you think about the possible forces from a head on collision with another vehicle or rock or whatever, I'd be betting the towel can shift or become dislodged.


Tom beat me to it, with a much shorter more civil answer.

[Zombie]

I think what Boone is trying to say is that this would be something he would do when he got to the trail, not on the way there.

I don't have kinds yet, so I don't know what I would do, but my better judgement would likely say to wait until they are older and more able to take care of themselves.

I would think arround 7 maybe.

by that time, they might enjoy it more as they can go for longer times without getting really tired.

just my 2 cents.

steve

[jpthing]

I think what Boone is trying to say is that this would be something he would do when he got to the trail, not on the way there.

I don't have kinds yet, so I don't know what I would do, but my better judgement would likely say to wait until they are older and more able to take care of themselves.

I would think arround 7 maybe.

by that time, they might enjoy it more as they can go for longer times without getting really tired.

just my 2 cents.

steve

wow...tense.

and yes this is something you do when you get there, and reset when you go.

I am not asking anyone to advocvate or recommend wheeling with small children.

I am simply pointing out that  when traveling at very low speeds on bumpy terrain there is much less tendancy for the child's head to fall forward when the seat is sloped back slightly more. This statement is not an opinion it is a fact.

Spinalguy perhaps you will riddle me this...in general in a bumpy environment would it be preferable for a small child's head to be a) leaned back onto a padded cradle head rest or   b) dangling forward with the weight of the head tearing neck muscles?

And the idea that one could roll off a cliff or something and their child would not be protected because the seat was leaned back is laughable...in a roll the entire vehicle is changing angle 360 degrees possibly more than once so it's unlikely 10 degrees angle on the carseat will make a difference IMHO. More important factors would be securing items inside the vehicle, intrusions of items such as branches and rocks (I guess soft topps are unsafe too) and how much falling there was before the smash. The seats get mounted in the normal way. The towel or blanket is actually reccomended by the carseat companies as a method of acheiving their reccomended angle in cars where the seatback is too steep and not adjustable.

Anyone who says that deviating from the proper angle while wheeling is somehow unsafe is diregarding the fact that that proper angle was arrived at from research into collisions on the roads at higher speed and may not in fact be the ideal angle when the product is used for a different application.

I always start by reading the instructions with anything and I have great repect for the time and R and D that OEM's put into the products we buy. However, when using a product for an application different than that for which it was intended, the instructions do not always apply.

[Evil-Jeep]

This is starting to sound like a debate on belt dressing again.......

Yous say you trust the R&d techs that develop the products you use..... I myself would trust those exerts as well as the experts that deal with the aftermath of a parents bad choice.... such as Spinalguy. I have on occasion taken a group of 2 - 4 year olds out for a spin out camping with friends..... drove around the campsite thru a mud puddle, spun the tires let them get a little excited.... 5 minutes they were satisfied they got to go out and I probably never exceeded 10km/hr. I n all honesty this is all they need at that age. I have also had my own 1.5 year old in the jeep when backing out of the drive way and watched his head bob back and forth from the curb alone... I myself would never subject him to hours of that  on a trail... I agree fully with Spinalguy and many others that it probably is not good for young kids, your towel trick may work... or it may not, I would not be willing to gamble my childrens health on a theory.

I do not see the point in arguing with spinalguy when he is a trained professional and only posting what he feels is in the best interest for the members of the CJA and their families. While you seem to be a bit more of a "novice inventor" who feels that after reading a manufactures instructions he can make a product using discount bin parts that will far exceed any product on the market............ If it was possible to engineer a child seat ment for the rigors of wheeling they would be available at 4wheeling shops and they would not be able to keep them in stock.

Aside from the safety, how is your 2 or 3 yearold going to act when you blow out a knuckle or drive shaft or something more serious, are they going to sit nicely on the side of the road  while you lay on your back and try to repair your rig? what if it turns to an all night camping trip with freezing temps?

I believe the CJA even has rules regarding the age of passengers on sponsored runs, if it was as easy as stuffing a towel under the seat to make it safe we would all be doing it as it is a fantastic way to spend time with the family. But for the next 2 - 3 years if we decide to take both kids to enjoy the back country we will not be leaving the gravel....