Cleanups: The Government's view...

[EVOLUTION]

Incase no one ventures over to our forums, I thought I would post up here.  This is the email I received from Roger Meyer (CC'd to several other governmental/SRD figures) regarding the cleanup efforts in the OHV Areas, followed by the email I sent back.  

I have not yet received anything back but I am curious as to what they will say.  Just keeping you informed.

Not even a thank you from SRD so far...  :roll:  I think I got in more trouble fixing the areas than I would if I went out & destroyed them.  

Erin

I got your email address from Blair Code of the Calgary Jeep Association. Please give me a call to discuss the efforts your group made on the weekend and how we would like to work together to try and improve conditions in the Mclean Creek Off Highway Vehicle Forest Land Use Zone. There are a number of things that groups like yours can do to help look after the area that does not require any special permit from SRD or the RCMP. Examples of these activities are;

Removal of garbage from the area. This includes both the trails and the random camping areas.
Removal of deadfall from the trails. No cutting of live trees without prior authorization from SRD
Providing drainage of wet areas on the trails by hand work.

Some examples of things that need prior authorization would be;

The fencing project that was shown on the news article by Global Television. This is a multiple use area and other users need to be consulted prior to work being completed. The area is a grazing allotment  and fencing without consulting the local rancher may cause issues with their operations. This is an active gas field with sour gas pipelines in the area. Drilling post holes without prior authorization could have serious consequences.
Moving and or  removal of vehicles that have been abandoned in the area. The process that is in place regarding abandoned vehicles is that 1. SRD creates an occurrence report on the vehicle. This is done whether the vehicle is found by SRD staff or is being reported by the public. 2. SRD forwards a copy of the occurrence report to the local RCMP detachment. 3. The RCMP create a file and investigate. 4. Once the RCMP investigation is complete, the vehicle can be removed from the area. It is at this stage that we have appreciated the help of people like Blair Code in the retrieval and removal of the abandoned vehicles if the RCMP does not have the vehicle removed by a towing company. Until the RCMP give permission to remove the vehicle, the site is considered to be a crime scene and must not be disturbed until the police have finished their investigation.
Any type of structures to be installed; i.e culverts, bridges

SRD has started to build a good relationship with a core group of volunteers from the Off Highway Vehicle community and want this group of people to grow. Please give me a call or respond to this email as we are interested in working together within the policies and regulations that govern the area. Local Officers are Frankie Kerr for the Ghost FLUZ and Mike Thompson for the McLean FLUZ. We do have a process in place for groups like yours for project work in these zones and would be happy to walk you through the process

Roger Meyer RPFT
Land Management Planning Forester
Sustainable Resource Development
Public Lands and Forests Division
8660 Bearspaw Dam Road NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada  T3L 1S4
Tel 403/297-8815
Fax 403/297-8803
Email [email protected]

Mr. Meyer,

 

I thank you for taking the time to write me this email and explaining the rules & regulations to me.   I was unaware of what does go on in the process of vehicle extraction and cleaning up the OHV areas and it is kind of you to properly educate me as to what I was to be doing.   Proper education is the most important step towards rules & regulations being followed.  Education is what we have been trying to push towards for many years so the users of the area know what they need to do to keep the areas clean & useable for all of the OHV community.

 

Mr.Meyer, I am going to be frank with you because I believe this may be the only chance that I have a voice.  I have volunteered with several organizations that “have a good relationship” with the SRD.  I have volunteered many hours and many dollars out of my own pocket to help save these trails and these areas.  I assist in organizing groups for picking up garbage on a monthly basis.  I have been part of the crew that does large trail fixes, building bridges, fixing mud holes.  I have met with Trout Unlimited Canada on several occasions to see what we can do as 4x4 users to have a working relationship with them.  TU was extremely helpful in educating us as to why the fish habitats have the potential to be disturbed and started working with us to make every trail in Waiparous useable, without hurting any of the habitats or dropping siltation into the water in the event of the 100 year flood where our drinking water will be affected.

My husband Clayton Kraatz owns Evolution Machining & Fabrication in Calgary.  He lives and breathes trucks… his business is just that… TRUCKS.  He has donated so many dollars and so many materials the new bridges that went up in Waiparous and McLean over the last few years, not to mention he has shut the shop down for the days to build them.  He assisted Dave Dunlop in cutting up and putting in those large bridges in Waiparous last year.  He works along with the AURS on a daily basis and always does whatever he can to help.  This is just the beginning… he has done so much for the community that I don’t even know where to start.

We did this all for what?  For a closed sign to be slapped in our faces and the fingers to be pointed at trucks for the blame.

Have you ever had something that you loved so dearly and had worked so hard at to keep?  It makes you feel empty inside when it’s gone.  Like, all those days you spent fighting for something and it was all just so someone else could take it away and say it was because of you.

Mr. Meyer, the problem we have in these areas should not be singled out as trucks, or vehicles over 800 lbs.  The fingers should point towards the lack of education to any users about the back country, about the OHV areas, about the fish habitats, about the rivers, lakes and streams, about the garbage, about cutting down live trees or not using deadfall, or even just the common sense of garbage and what it’s doing to our environment.

I have been pushing towards OHV licensing, user fees, larger fines and enforcement and I will continue to push for these until I am blue in the face.  McLean Creek is a DESIGNATED OHV area.   I believe it is the only designated OHV area in Western Canada.  So why are we allowing people with no OHV’s to random camp?  I strongly believe that if you get rid of the grad parties, the teenagers that only come out on May Long Weekend and anyone who wishes to random camp without an OHV, and issue a user fee of a few hundred dollars a year you will get rid of most of the problem.

How many destroyed vehicles are left there each weekend?  How many of them are just off the main road?  Do you think a responsible OHV enthusiast would bring a CAR out to an OHV area, let alone trash & burn it?

I understand the SRD has to be made aware of the vehicles and they were aware.  I asked everyone around who was there if they knew about it and they all said yes.  So if the SRD knows about it, why wasn’t the RCMP called right away?  Why must vehicles be left there until they are burnt or destroyed?  We pulled them out to the main areas so they would easily be picked up by the SRD.  A lot of times they are just left there for months and it’s an eyesore.  It is what they film on the news and what they love to see.  Here’s an OHV area cluttered with burnt up cars…. It MUST be the trucks!

The fencing project we did is wide open.  We knew it was a grazing area so we left a lot of room for the cows to get in, all we did was block off the main entrance to the newly developing bog so the OHV’s couldn’t get in by easy access.  I do apologize for not consulting the farmer and if you have a name, I would gladly contact that person to discuss the fence.  If the farmer would like it removed, then we will remove it but I want to see what his thoughts are on it.

Culverts and bridges I have worked with before so I know to get a permit.  I was in the process of getting ideas for bridges with Trout Unlimited when we got the news that Waiparous was closed.

Mr. Meyer, I am begging you to please let the users have a voice.  We do so much with your organization – we give and give and give…. And it seems like we never get heard.  From my point of view it is like we are being set up for failure.  It’s almost like you WANT to see these areas closed and that you WANT to see the blame put on 4x4 users.

I would love to have a working relationship with SRD and I will do anything I can for these areas.  A part of me inside wonders if what I am doing is going to matter, or are they going to just shut everything down anyway?  I already know what we need to do to save it…. I just need to know that the efforts we put in every day are going to keep what little we have left open.

 

It all begins with EDUCATION.  WE as 4x4 users need YOUR help and your support too.  Help us push towards larger fines, ENFORCEMENT, OHV licensing and user fees… as well as banning any person random camping without an OHV.

My husband and I would love to meet with you and your group in person to speak about our concerns and how we can work together towards saving our trails and cleaning up our areas.  Please let me know when a convenient time would be and we will be there.   You may contact me at 710-9641 or Clayton at 616-9414.  We look forward to hearing from you.


Thank you again for your time and consideration in this matter.
 

Sincerely,

Erin Kraatz
Truck enthusiast

[dubbleJs]

Great letter Erin, I appreciate all and any efforts that have gone into trying to save Mclean as the area it SHOULD be, before they just take the easy route out and shut it all down. There does need to be more RCMP out there because enforcing rules would be very easy considering the trashed cars and littered garbage is only a km or two off the main Mclean trail.
It sounds like there is hope, but it also sounds like they are still counting on the "book" to solve the problems. For the trashed cars to be left exactly where they are is just asking for more problems, the RCMP need to be notified right away to investigate and remove. Every single car Ive looked at out there have VIN's on them, that should make tracking the owners almost too easy..

thanks for your efforts.
Jonas

[Asia]

OHV areas are meant for all users.  Friends and I have used McLean for random camping and to get out to the woods before we had Jeeps.  We hiked in, and rode our mountain bikes.  Some adventurous friends even drove their cars in to our favourite camp sites and got stuck on the way.  We always carried out our garbage, left our camp sites in fine condition and never left a bicycle, tent or car behind.  Disallowing random camping without an OHV would have discriminated against us and many other responsible users; for that reason I can't support that idea.

I also can't support user fees, nor licensing of OHVs to use OHV areas.   Alberta is a rich province and can afford to operate their parks.  There are no fees to hike, cycle, climb or camp in the high country (backcountry) in Alberta's parks and wildlands.  McLean should be no different.  I believe enforcement of the existing regulations is the answer to the idiots who should know better.  Education in the form of discussion of the issues and rules in high schools, and public service ads on TV and radio would go along ways to educating the ignorant.  Alberta can certainly afford to do this considering what they do spend money on.

McLean and all OHV areas are meant for all users including Jeeps and trucks.

[cotaman]

great letter Erin......

Education to encourage responsible ohv use and random camping is key.  So is enforcement to ensure that people are not "abusing" the great privledge on having areas like Maclean, IG and the Ghost.

I whole heartly support the user fee movement ... either through a OHV license or a Back Country pass....  i hope people would realize that they are paying to maintain this privledge instead of thinking it is their right to go out to the bush make a bleeping mess...either with their OHV's or their beer bottles and garbage.

great work.  hope to see the waggy at the S n S

[TJ54]

I agree with Tom (Asia) on the user fee's. I would pay a user fee if it was implemented. But all of the OHV areas are on crown/provincial land, all Albertans should have access to our land. It belongs to the people of this province, why should I have to pay again for something that my tax dollars already pay for.
Even though us ohv'ers use areas like maclean and waiparous, So do others as well. You often see people taking their families out for the occasional picnic. Places like 4 corners at waiparous are easily accessible in regular passenger vehicles. Why should people pay to drive out there and have a little picnic and fire by the side of the river?

If there were specific designated OHV areas, I would be more agreeble to fees. But my understanding is that the only Government Authorized OHV area in western Canada is Maclean creek.
SRD tolerates OHV's in other area, but my guess that is because they don't really know what to do about the whole OHV issue.

Random camping is an issue I can't decide on. But the rules need to be fair and equal to all users. Maybe maclean should ban all random camping. It would be unfair to allow OHV'ers to camp, but not allow the hunters, fishermen, Hikers, mountain bikers to camp.
Or maybe they should follow GAMP and limit random camping areas.  

Enforcement of existing rules are the way to go. SRD and RCMP have quads, bikes and 4x4's, they should put them to use and get off maclean creek trail. If it was known that you were going to see a group of law enforcers coming though your camping spot at 1am. Maybe things would quieten down a bit.

[EVOLUTION]

Clay & I have a meeting with Roger Meyer next week to discuss our thoughts.  You have brought up some good points... I will definitely bring them up.

If there is anything you would like us to bring up at the meeting, now is your chance... this might be the only time we're ever heard by them so lets make it count!

[01sahara]

I fully support the idea of user fees or a yearly back country pass/ license for motorized off road vehicles.

A back country license would be no different then a hunting tag or fishing license. Use of Alberta’s back country is the use of a finite resource and a fee is a method of rationing its usage. This is an established methodology for rationing any limited resource that does not have a fee established in the market through supply and demand.  I think fees should apply to use of all motorized off road vehicles, quad, bike and truck. The fee could very depending on the class of vehicle. Considering what we pay for in fuel, modifications and repairs I would gladly pay up to $500 per year as a license fee.

This type of system would work best if the government linked the license to an education requirement. (“Tread Lightly” style of info).  For the first time users established clubs could be issued open passes to bring first time users out on a club pass and again reinforce some of the trail education we need to see users following.  If even a portion of the fees generated when into enforcement and trail maintenance we could, in a short time, have a world class tail system that had funding to keep it sustainable. With a license in place it would add a new form of enforcement, break the rules and the government can pull your license.    

Yes, I agree enforcement of the current rules would help but a license fee would provide funds, from the user groups, to increase that level of enforcement and could provide the additional benefits of education and additional tools for that enforcement.

Ian just as your signature says “MEMBERSHIP HAS ITS PERKS” so would a license.

These are just my thoughts and not the official position of the club or all of its members. I know some of the other member I have talked to agree. Ian I would be glad to debate this issue with you and Tom at the next meeting.

Lots of posts on our site and in other sites have suggested user fees. Well what does that mean? Let’s talk about how we would see that type of a system working so if we ask for it we have some specific suggestions to add to the discussion. What do others think?

Blair

[Spinalguy]

Although Tom and Ian's thoughts are admirable, sadly they are unrealistic of what the future holds for OHV use, specifically 4x4's.

We lost Waiporous, we lost IG. Whatever we have done in the past did not work. Its a new future and i personally would pay any amount to ensure we are still wheelin in 50 years.

TK

[JohnB]

IMO, there needs to be licensing.  Licensing after you have taken a course on off road usage...  Big fines if found without a license.  Big fines if found breaking the rules.

This is what they are doing in Australia.  The 4WD clubs set up a structured training system and every club gets people trained as trainers.  Each club then holds annual training sessions.  It is a 1000 times more arganized there.  The 4WD clubs have national and state organizations that exist to deal with the government.

The normal off roader is properly trained and things like recoveries are orders of magnitude safer than what I typically see around here.

All state forestry areas require a permit.  The permit is free, but it allows the local rangers to control and monitor access as needed.

[TJ54]

First off I don't think the politicians will ever approve an off road tax (user fee). They get enough crap from people now over excessive taxation.

Fishing licences, hunting licences, win cards are something you carry in your wallet. Would an off ohv licence operate the same way? Just a piece of paper you have in your pocket. There's no enforcement out there now so how will anyone know if the operator of that ohv you see on the trail has a licence. I'm not going to pull him over and ask are you?

You could put a sticker on a licence plate or on the vehicle. Does that mean. You would have to buy seperate licence for your quad and your jeep? How about if you have a bike as well.

How about if you have two or three kids and are living on a low income, Now you have to find enough money for 3 or 4 licences every year. I know someone who barely manages to scrape enough money to keep his own and his kids beater bikes together. If he has find more money for licences, his kids are done riding.

Let me state again if there was a user fee, I would begrudgingly pay it. But I can afford it, so many people can't.

PS. If we are going to turn this into a big debate, lets do it here on the forum. These debates always get heated at the meetings and drag the meetings on for hours.
If this gets out of control with name calling, there will be moderation

[Hi Lo Silver]

First off I don't think the politicians will ever approve an off road tax (user fee). They get enough crap from people now over excessive taxation.

Fishing licences, hunting licences, win cards are something you carry in your wallet. Would an off ohv licence operate the same way? Just a piece of paper you have in your pocket. There's no enforcement out there now so how will anyone know if the operator of that ohv you see on the trail has a licence. I'm not going to pull him over and ask are you?

 Vehicle registration slips and license have been issued for years just like the hunting license and fishing license what would make it so difficult.

You could put a sticker on a licence plate or on the vehicle. Does that mean. You would have to buy seperate licence for your quad and your jeep? How about if you have a bike as well.


 Don't you already need a separate liscense for all of the above or do you just transfer the one license over depending on what you use that day


How about if you have two or three kids and are living on a low income, Now you have to find enough money for 3 or 4 licences every year. I know someone who barely manages to scrape enough money to keep his own and his kids beater bikes together. If he has find more money for licences, his kids are done riding.

 Am I mistaken or does low income have a different meaning for some. If you have any type of motorized toy for all your young ones to play with while out camping I don't think you fall in the low income category. What happened to legos and tonka toys for the little people to enjoy? If I had things my way anybody under the age of 14 would not be enjoying the controls of a motorized vehicle while on public land. The last few years while random camping I've seen far too many people pull into the area and throw the kids the keys and away they go totally unsupervised. Ripping up and down the meadows without any thought of staying on a road or out  of the rivers.

Let me state again if there was a user fee, I would begrudgingly pay it. But I can afford it, so many people can't.


Personally I'd be willing to pay up to $1000 bucks per year if it meant the funds would go back to maintenance of the trail system and area, enforcment would be beefed up and the riff raff were kept out of the areas.



PS. If we are going to turn this into a big debate, lets do it here on the forum. These debates always get heated at the meetings and drag the meetings on for hours.
If this gets out of control with name calling, there will be moderation

[FiEND]

i don't believe in user fees such as fishing license type(s).

i do believe in a user licensing / education program designed and implemented just like they have now for boat operators.

as for the random camping, grad party junk, enforcement.

i do feel it is a tough battle being that this is alberta and ranchers are a huge economy and have a loud united voice that is listened to.

i would like to hear or read more about the system mention above in australia but that sounds like something that would require many groups across canada united, as well as lawyers and geologists etc.  costly and time consuming but might be the only hope.

[TJ54]

First off I don't think the politicians will ever approve an off road tax (user fee). They get enough crap from people now over excessive taxation.
----------
Fishing licences, hunting licences, win cards are something you carry in your wallet. Would an off ohv licence operate the same way? Just a piece of paper you have in your pocket. There's no enforcement out there now so how will anyone know if the operator of that ohv you see on the trail has a licence. I'm not going to pull him over and ask are you?

 Vehicle registration slips and license have been issued for years just like the hunting license and fishing license what would make it so difficult.

No, it would be easy, but since there is no enforcement why bother, Is SRD really going to chase down a bike to see if you have a licence with you. They should, but will they
---------------------------
You could put a sticker on a licence plate or on the vehicle. Does that mean. You would have to buy seperate licence for your quad and your jeep? How about if you have a bike as well.


 Don't you already need a separate liscense for all of the above or do you just transfer the one license over depending on what you use that day


Yes you need a sepearate licence for eash but at the moment they don't have a sticker for a $500 off road use fee.You could probably get a way with putting a bike plate on a quad without getting noticed, But a bike plate on a pickup may arouse suspiction.
Try explaining why you licence plate is registered to honda quad when you are sitting on a KTM bike

-------------------------------------------
How about if you have two or three kids and are living on a low income, Now you have to find enough money for 3 or 4 licences every year. I know someone who barely manages to scrape enough money to keep his own and his kids beater bikes together. If he has find more money for licences, his kids are done riding.

 Am I mistaken or does low income have a different meaning for some. If you have any type of motorized toy for all your young ones to play with while out camping I don't think you fall in the low income category. What happened to legos and tonka toys for the little people to enjoy? If I had things my way anybody under the age of 14 would not be enjoying the controls of a motorized vehicle while on public land. The last few years while random camping I've seen far too many people pull into the area and throw the kids the keys and away they go totally unsupervised. Ripping up and down the meadows without any thought of staying on a road or out  of the rivers.

This particular friend has begged and borrowed riding gear for kids. Has found some used and worn out bikes and fixed them up. He can get parts at cost. Less than $1000 invested over a couple of years.
agreed on the kids being unsupervised, but lots of kids are supervised by responsible parents, and we have all seen riders over 14 doing the same irresponsible behavior
-----------------------------------------
Let me state again if there was a user fee, I would begrudgingly pay it. But I can afford it, so many people can't.


Personally I'd be willing to pay up to $1000 bucks per year if it meant the funds would go back to maintenance of the trail system and area, enforcment would be beefed up and the riff raff were kept out of the areas.
Do you really think the money will go into trail repair? or will it just disappear into the wood work with the rest of our tax dollars.
Enforcement of existing rules would help so much. Especially the alcohol and drug related ones
----------------------------------------------


PS. If we are going to turn this into a big debate, lets do it here on the forum. These debates always get heated at the meetings and drag the meetings on for hours.
If this gets out of control with name calling, there will be moderation

edited: I messed up, I cut and pasted this bit to another post
Sorry

[Spinalguy]

We can all agree that May Long is always the problem. Really, any other weekend and there is far less b.s.
A total ban on alcohol for May Long would be fantastic.

Tom

[SwampSinger]

We can all agree that May Long is always the problem. Really, any other weekend and there is far less b.s.
A total ban on alcohol for May Long would be fantastic.

Tom

They do that in Manitoba in Provincial areas...