Aug 23 Group photo Falls run

[SmilinVamp]

now now... not need to say it like that... 

But yah, the only way to effect change is to be a part of the group that makes the rules... if your not, your energy is being wasted.  This is the way it's always been...  can be applied to any rule (or law) you can think of...

[Spinalguy]

Although, I don't think Alex's hill climb was a violation of the Tread Lightly principles (please correct me if it was),

i have not seen the video but i will give an example of an area you guys were that is not a tread lightly scenario. (***and i am not saying that any of you were 'off' the main trail up/down)
Along BORING 2WD Meadowcreek is a hill with 5 possible ways up/down that hill. Now, back in time there was one way up and down but than someone tried a NEW way and than another NEW way, etc until now there are 5 ways to the top/bottom that serve no purpose. In reality it is OFF the main trail so all the ups/downs are created under NOT tread lightly principles.
So, if a pic/video shows this hill than one can argue that we 'tore' it up although it has been there for years...get it?
Finally, i have pics from your run Saturday and i will post them at sites that do not care at all.
Tom

[Z]

i have not seen the video but i will give an example of an area you guys were that is not a tread lightly scenario. (***and i am not saying that any of you were 'off' the main trail up/down)
Along BORING 2WD Meadowcreek is a hill with 5 possible ways up/down that hill. Now, back in time there was one way up and down but than someone tried a NEW way and than another NEW way, etc until now there are 5 ways to the top/bottom that serve no purpose. In reality it is OFF the main trail so all the ups/downs are created under NOT tread lightly principles.
So, if a pic/video shows this hill than one can argue that we 'tore' it up although it has been there for years...get it?
Finally, i have pics from your run Saturday and i will post them at sites that do not care at all.
Tom

Your tone is condescending. There may be a reason why membership in the CJA is so low, if you treat potential new members like crap. I get it!

[Spinalguy]

Your tone is condescending. There may be a reason why membership in the CJA is so low, if you treat potential new members like crap. I get it!

You are way off base. In no way am i even trying to be condescending. Maybe i need to make use of the smilies. Where do you get that impression from?
i quoted you as an example of where one may think doing something is ok. Again, i stressed that i have not seen the video of any hill climb but provided you with an example of an area that has multiple hill climbs that are not ok.
As far as judging me based on a post, maybe you should check all my 910  posts at CJA to validate your opinion.
i too have my opinion regarding pics posted on a public forum and they do not in any way match CJA' s policy.

i run my own business and the last thing i ever want to do on a public forum is upset anyone so i can assure you that my post you quoted has no tone or intention of being condescending.
Thanks
Tom

[Z]

I also run my own business, and I would never ask someone if they "get it".  That is just plain rude, whether written on a forum or spoken in conversation.

[Spinalguy]

I also run my own business, and I would never ask someone if they "get it".  That is just plain rude, whether written on a forum or spoken in conversation.

My bad...i never even considered that angle. 'Gettin it' is a term used often for wheelers doing something tuff and succeeding although sometimes not making the obstacle. i was using the 'get it' to sum up how misinterpretations of wheelin can happen. No offense intended.
Tom

[Z]

My bad...i never even considered that angle. 'Gettin it' is a term used often for wheelers doing something tuff and succeeding although sometimes not making the obstacle. i was using the 'get it' to sum up how misinterpretations of wheelin can happen. No offense intended.
Tom

It's all good.

[yjcanibul]

I am a little sad the pit shot got scrubbed ... but I am over it now

so this thread helped me for one to understand policy and also how
to change it ... sounds democratic which is good ...

I want to share a little storey :
I worked with a nice guy some years ago who lived in wiaprious ,  he invited us out,  when I showed up in my jeep a car passed on the way up his street/driveway an U-turned and followed us in and when I parked his neighbor leaned over the fence and asked if 'they were all right' ,   no shite ... our relationship turned into this nice guy telling me every other day to let everyone know they had hired a speedticket officer etc ... I was totally sterotyped ... this storey is 100% true ...

this is in some ways what the web policy is trying to combat ...

On the flip side,  apologizing now if this seems sexist and probably not the best example , but its known at comedy clubs the men are asked if they goto see stripers ... about 5% ( probably single or soon to be ) say 'Yes' ,  now I am pretty sure 5% is a lie - the same question to women is like 80% as the whole house shakes ... there has to be a good percentage of those 95% men that said nothing and I am a little sad about that ... but over it ...

so, you gotta admire speaking up - thats what this thread shows me ...

the weekend run was awesome - I will wheel with anyone on that run anytime and we will  

hope you enjoyed the stories ... they solve nothing ... tread lightly but lets wheel !

[LAHAL]

Love to see the passion,

I'm just gonna toss my 2 cents in here.

Going back to the hill climb. I'm not going to go back and see who wrote this, but they said, that at some point in time, there was only 1 way down. And then someone came along, and made a new way, and then a new way, and then a new way etc. etc.. Well if were going to get technical, then we should never get off the paved roads, because even the boring 2wd road, at some point wasn't a trail, and some one made a "new way". Sometimes you have to pick a new way. There's just no way around it. Some times a tree maybe in the way, or it flooded, or a cow is sleeping on the trail. There is no way around it, sometime you just have to go off the beaten path.

I hear a lot of bad publicity on the news about all the stuff that happens at mclean creek on long weekends. And yet I would never think that any of the people that I have met threw this website would participate is that poor sportsmanship.

I also hear a lot about how the CJA does what they can to promote good jeepin. And I think that's great. But strength comes in number's, and I think that the CJA should include non-members opinion on things. I don't like the idea of paying $50 bucks to state my opinion, and then have someone tell me, "sorry, that's the rule's, take it or leave it".

I think more needs to be done, to promote non-member to join. As far as i can see, membership, just gets you to post pictures, gets you a vote and the status. Not wroth the $50 bucks in my opinion. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

Just my 2 cent's

[dunl]

Love to see the passion,

I'm just gonna toss my 2 cents in here.

Going back to the hill climb. I'm not going to go back and see who wrote this, but they said, that at some point in time, there was only 1 way down. And then someone came along, and made a new way, and then a new way, and then a new way etc. etc.. Well if were going to get technical, then we should never get off the paved roads, because even the boring 2wd road, at some point wasn't a trail, and some one made a "new way". Sometimes you have to pick a new way. There's just no way around it. Some times a tree maybe in the way, or it flooded, or a cow is sleeping on the trail. There is no way around it, sometime you just have to go off the beaten path.

It's not going off the beaten path, it is going off the official and legal trail, and the one time you "need" to do this might be where you get nailed and stereotyped.

I hear a lot of bad publicity on the news about all the stuff that happens at mclean creek on long weekends. And yet I would never think that any of the people that I have met threw this website would participate is that poor sportsmanship.

Here's some food for thought: a couple of years ago some guy were out at McLean, and they were approached by a couple of fine young ladies, asking if they could take their "big rigs" though the mud so they could get some "action shots".  Being fine young hot blooded males, they of course agreed to help out these fairly attractive ladies get some action shots.

Guess what showed up in a newpaper Tuesday after that long weekend? Their mug shots in their rigs going through the mud, with a caption and article to the effect of how people with large rigs were tearing up the wilderness and ruining McLean.

Other than the action shots, these guys stated they were on the sanctioned trails the whole weekend, and this was the one time they got involved in going through any mud.

Long story short - the actions you perform are not always the actions that are perceived.

I also hear a lot about how the CJA does what they can to promote good jeepin. And I think that's great. But strength comes in number's, and I think that the CJA should include non-members opinion on things.

While the CJA does take into consideration (from my experience, anyway) the opinions on the board, it's not necessary that they include non-member's opinions. If you were on a baseball team, would you expect to listen to every piece of advice from the stands and act on it?

I don't like the idea of paying $50 bucks to state my opinion, and then have someone tell me, "sorry, that's the rule's, take it or leave it".

That's actually called life.  Majority rules....$50 does not guarantee that the entire club will follow your wishes.

[Waytec]

You membership gives you more then a right to post pics and to vote on issues, it puts you on the inside of what is going on to keep places open. Your 50$ goes towards fighting the government to keep places open, remember they would rather just close everything and then they don't have to worry about it,  maintaining the trails, who do you think is doing the work to maintain the trails, and now surveying and building new trails? There is a criteria that has to be met to open a trail. I invite everyone and urge you as jeepers to come to the next meeting and see what is covered and discussed.
If you think your 50$ is not worth it I don't want to hear anyone holding that opinion say a word if everything is closed. I have watched one province close most off-roading areas and like heck I am going to watch it happen again in this province. I am not going to go down without a fight.   

[Spinalguy]

Lahal,
it was me that stated the hill scenario. To clarify, there is one up/down to the same destination. 4 more ups/downs are not needed as the main up/down has never been blocked, eroded, undoable,etc.
Joining the CJA also gets you in on CJA only runs. Most runs provide food and beverage. Exclusive camping in unknown areas. Runs on trails you may never knew existed, etc.
Tom

[Z]

A bit heated, but a good discussion.... bottom line is, some of us newbies need a bit more education, and I'm hoping that joining the CJA will help with that.

In addition, we are seeing ourselves demonized, because our activity is not mainstream, and due to general public perception. Golf, on the other hand, is far more harmful to the environment, and building a 18 hole gof course in Kananaskis has destroyed more habitat than Jeeping, yet golf courses are  popping up everywhere.

Golf has a LOT of money behind it, and as we all know, money trumps everything in our society.

What can we do?

We need to work on changing the perception of off-roading. Again, I'll make the golf comparision. If you do stupid things on a golf course, you are kicked off the course. Do it enough times and you are not welcome back. It should be the same for off-roading. The rules need to be clarified, and that is where organizations like CJA, Tread Lightly, and others come in. I think that these rules should be on the front of any legitimate 4x4 site, and respect for the environment should be a part of any off-road organization's mission statement.

I believe the off-road license is a good start. A short course that everyone must take at a nominal fee. This will do 2 things.
1) It will edicate users of the trail on proper trail etiquette, and rules. No more excuses of "I didn't know"
2) it will reduce (but not eliminate) the yahoos that go out and tear up the area.

Maybe designated mud bogs should be signed as such?

Perhaps, there should be an upward limit of how heavy an off-road vehicle is allowed on a trail... this is controversial obviously... but I just don't think some trucks belong out there.

One of the biggest issues out there is enforcement. We need to self police, mainly because there are not enough officers. This is difficult to do, because while an organization like the CJA may be able to police/educate their own members and participants, it is far more difficult and dangerous to try and stop someone else from doing something they shouldn't.

This is where the use of camera's and video may come in. If we do see something that is not right, do we tape it, photograph it, get the license plate and report it? Logic will say yes. However, if this happens and violations go up, the government in their infinite wisdom could point to the increased number of ticketed violations as an excuse to close trails. This is a conundrum. This is where we need to start co-operating with the government, and have them realize the two classes of trail users.

Anyway, we all know the challenges, and these are challenges being faced by every off-road organization out there. We do need to wok together to keep trails open, and it will be an ongoing challenge.

[RUBI]

Very nicely worded Z............X2 
Oh...............and I have never played Golf !!

[LAHAL]

X3 

or we can go 4x4ing on golf course 

alright, i'm gonna get shite for that comment.