Calgary Jeep Association
4x4 Related Groups => Tech Talk => Topic started by: jpthing on February 09, 2010, 10:13:31 AM
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Who doesn't like to save $$?
Over the years I have chewed through many parts on the accsessory drive such as idler pulleys, alternators, and to a lesser extent, power steering pumps and fan clutches.
For those who may be interested I will share some of what I have learned.
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Tighter is not always better. The "proper" spec for tightness on a serpentine belt is pretty frickin tight...this is because shops and pro techs want to compensate for possible stretch which may occur, and because they must select a setting which will basically never slip for a long time...because people get fumed when their vehicle makes horrible squealing noises after they have had it fixed. The problem is that having the belt tighter increases wear on all of the bearings including those in the bottom end of the engine. My solution? I set the belt to the loosest setting where it seems like it will work...you can try forcing an idler to slip by hand to help you judfge. Then I try the engine. If it seems ok (no squealing) I leave it as is. If it squeals a little I try a bit of belt dressing. If it still squeals, I tighten the belt a little. For me the perfect setting is where it almost never squeals but occasionally will give a brief squeal within the first minute on a cold morning. Basically, my point could be summed up like this: If it's too tight, you will ruin components. If it's too loose it will squeal and require two wrenches and 4 minutes to adjust. which side would you rather err on???
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The next thing is Idler pulleys. The other day, before the open run I figured it would be a good Idea to go to NAPA and pick up a couple replacements since the ones on my TJ came with the engine and had a little wiggle (bearing play). So I go get two pulleys and they were.....wait for it....OVER $50 EACH!!!....with my discount!!!! And made in China!! Can you guess where my next stop after NAPA was? Yes that's right, Princess Auto. With the new pulleys in hand, I went to PA and selected two new bearings which matched...they were $4.49 each. 4 minutes work with the press and my old pulleys had new bearings...and I had $100 more after I returned the pulleys to NAPA.
Some points to ponder:
Are these bearings as good as the "real" ones? I don't know, only time will tell. The factory bearings were made in Canada, so I doubt the new ones are as good as those, but the aftermarket NAPA were made in China, as were the PA bearings, so they may be quite similar in quality. A much better quality bearing could be sourced for around $10.
Can you do this without a press? I don't know but it was really easy to press the bearings so I would imagine it could be done with a socket and a hammer.
Why am I so cheap? Well, I'm a Jeep bastard, for starters.
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Being a licensed mechanic, I just thought i'd let you know that "belt dressing" is just about the worst thing you can put on a belt. If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it. Fix THAT problem.
AND..... "belt dressing" of ANY kind should NEVER EVER be put on a "serpentine" style belt. (Micro "V")
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Def some good food for thought Boone!
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i prefer old dutch cleanser or other powedered abrasive soap for sinks for cleaning belts
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Being a licensed mechanic, I just thought i'd let you know that "belt dressing" is just about the worst thing you can put on a belt. If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it. Fix THAT problem.
AND..... "belt dressing" of ANY kind should NEVER EVER be put on a "serpentine" style belt. (Micro "V")
X2!!! i never use the stuff. the belt needs to be dry. and adjusted properly. not super tight but tight enough that it wont make noise and it wont slip. a slipping belt can cause issues with power steering, cooling, and charging systems.
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Being a licensed mechanic, I just thought i'd let you know that "belt dressing" is just about the worst thing you can put on a belt. If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it. Fix THAT problem.
AND..... "belt dressing" of ANY kind should NEVER EVER be put on a "serpentine" style belt. (Micro "V")
Ya I've heard that from some of the pro crowd but I've had very good luck with it.
I'm not really looking for argument here, Just sharing what has worked for me.
And when you use belt dressing, the belt is "dry" . In my experience all it really does is provide a more grippy, less slippy surface. It is sticky for an hour or so but after that there is no visible trace...just a grippy belt. Again, just trying to share what has worked for me.
And hps4evr, uh yeah, no duh, slipping belts are bad (thanks, I was wondering about that). I'm not advocating slipping belts, just running them a little looser than what is typical spec.
Honestly, guys I am a member of nearly a hundred forums on topics ranging from cars and trucks to R/C cars, planes and helis to refrigeration equipment, fitness equipment and appliance repair, various types of electronics, and so on. It seems to me that on this site I am more likely to be shot down for saying what has worked for me than on most of the others.
You guys who are pro techs or whatever and know better than me: You don't have to follow my advice. You don't even have to read my posts. The fact is, however that I happen to know that there are a lot of guys on here who have only the most basic knowledge of auto mechanics,(and in many cases, that's being generous), I have met some of them and helped them fix their rigs on more than one occasion. My tips are for those who appreciate them.
And Finally. X-treme, I do not limit myself by what something is "for". If I did, Iwould not have a hockey puck body lift, I would not have oversized tires,nor would I have S-10 leafs and explorer shocks in the rear of my XJ. And as for your comment "If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it fix that problem" well, yeah, if you read my post you would know the reason too: the belt is loose. On purpose. That's the point. If it squeals more than very occasionally, tighten it. That was my advice. And don't just parrot the party line...If you're going to say belt dressing should "NEVER EVER" be used on a serpentine belt (in capitols no less) don't you think that you should at least give a reason for your belief? And don't say that it says so on the package or they tought you that in school, I mean an actual reason...
And why is it that only one person who is an actual friend of mine chimed in with anything positive? I spent my time and energy trying to help those who don't know, just to be contradicted by those who think they do? Doesn't exactly encourage the open exchage of ideas. Especially considering that it would seem we agree on 95% of my post, but the replyers just want to focus on the belt dressing....what about the rest of what I wrote? Or are posters just looking for something they disagree with to respond to? So they can be "right"?
Anyhow I'm NOT a pro automotive tech, but I own a company which provides both warranty (factory authorized) and non warranty service for several kinds of mechanical and electronic items. I train technicians in fields that are not tought at SAIT, where I have to invent the answers to questions. We have no books to refer to. We have no teachers to ask. We just have to figure it out. I have been doing this type of work for 15 years now, and along the way, I've learned a few things. I truly enjoy helping people with their rigs, especially when I know a cheap way to do something that most people think is expensive.
If no one appreciates my posts, perhaps I should go back to spending more time on NAXJA or elsewhere.
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Ya I've heard that from some of the pro crowd but I've had very good luck with it.
I'm not really looking for argument here, Just sharing what has worked for me.
And when you use belt dressing, the belt is "dry" . In my experience all it really does is provide a more grippy, less slippy surface. It is sticky for an hour or so but after that there is no visible trace...just a grippy belt. Again, just trying to share what has worked for me.
And hps4evr, uh yeah, no duh, slipping belts are bad (thanks, I was wondering about that). I'm not advocating slipping belts, just running them a little looser than what is typical spec.
Honestly, guys I am a member of nearly a hundred forums on topics ranging from cars and trucks to R/C cars, planes and helis to refrigeration equipment, fitness equipment and appliance repair, various types of electronics, and so on. It seems to me that on this site I am more likely to be shot down for saying what has worked for me than on most of the others.
You guys who are pro techs or whatever and know better than me: You don't have to follow my advice. You don't even have to read my posts. The fact is, however that I happen to know that there are a lot of guys on here who have only the most basic knowledge of auto mechanics,(and in many cases, that's being generous), I have met some of them and helped them fix their rigs on more than one occasion. My tips are for those who appreciate them.
And Finally. X-treme, I do not limit myself by what something is "for". If I did, Iwould not have a hockey puck body lift, I would not have oversized tires,nor would I have S-10 leafs and explorer shocks in the rear of my XJ. And as for your comment "If the belt makes noise, there is a reason for it fix that problem" well, yeah, if you read my post you would know the reason too: the belt is loose. On purpose. That's the point. If it squeals more than very occasionally, tighten it. That was my advice. And don't just parrot the party line...If you're going to say belt dressing should "NEVER EVER" be used on a serpentine belt (in capitols no less) don't you think that you should at least give a reason for your belief? And don't say that it says so on the package or they tought you that in school, I mean an actual reason...
And why is it that only one person who is an actual friend of mine chimed in with anything positive? I spent my time and energy trying to help those who don't know, just to be contradicted by those who think they do? Doesn't exactly encourage the open exchage of ideas. Especially considering that it would seem we agree on 95% of my post, but the replyers just want to focus on the belt dressing....what about the rest of what I wrote? Or are posters just looking for something they disagree with to respond to? So they can be "right"?
Anyhow I'm NOT a pro automotive tech, but I own a company which provides both warranty (factory authorized) and non warranty service for several kinds of mechanical and electronic items. I train technicians in fields that are not tought at SAIT, where I have to invent the answers to questions. We have no books to refer to. We have no teachers to ask. We just have to figure it out. I have been doing this type of work for 15 years now, and along the way, I've learned a few things. I truly enjoy helping people with their rigs, especially when I know a cheap way to do something that most people think is expensive.
If no one appreciates my posts, perhaps I should go back to spending more time on NAXJA or elsewhere.
To make you feel better........ I think that your PA bearing idea is a FANTASTIC (notice the capitals) one.
Belt dressing of any kid used on micro v belts causes them to separate, shread, peel, and all kinds of other issues. As well it REALLY plugs up the grooves in the pullies.
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jpthing,
i appreciate your input. 8)
My new to me CJ has the belt squeal a little when i stomp on it. Other than that it is quiet.
i will be using your tips.
Thanks
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jpthing,
i appreciate your input. 8)
My new to me CJ has the belt squeal a little when i stomp on it. Other than that it is quiet.
i will be using your tips.
Thanks
well now I just feel all warm n fuzzy...your welcome!
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X2 on the bearing replacement. I've been doing this on the Chev pickups at work as well as my own stuff. The bearing is a really common one. Get mine from Transmission supply just cause its convenient for me. Never actually looked to see where it was made.
X2 on the belt dressing. Bad stuff and rarely does it actually last more than a week. If you are using it then there is something else wrong. Bad adjustment, old/glazed belts, improper belt size/width/groove depth etc. For serpentine belts I try to always get the Goodyear Gatorbacks from NAPA. I've had trouble with cheaper belts slipping.
For tension I put belts pretty tight and never had a problem. Most of my bearing replacements are actually on vehicles with the spring loaded tensioners which don't have an adjustment. Only ever had to do the one on my '89 XJ once in the over 100,000kms I put on it.
As far as getting criticized goes I see the forums and the internet in general as a big discussion. Don't expect to put your thoughts on the net and have them taken for gospel and not questioned. Personal attacks are never cool but everyone's got an opinion and I must say my instructors at SAIT had some pretty nasty ones regarding belt dressing. Something along the lines of "only crooked shops use it". NOT calling you crooked just trying to pass along the knowledge I gained at SAIT. If the stuff works for you, keep using it but I feel obliged to present the other side of the discussion for others that want to try it so they can make an educated decision.
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well........ iam not going to be as nice as some of the other people that have responded to your post. your an idiot. so yes, you and your regurgitated, recycled Internet tec crap from "nearly a hundred forums" can go back to NAXJA. the very people you say you are trying to help with this type of Internet techno crap are the ones who will be hurt the most, for the very reasons you say, they don't know enough to know better. if you are really out there putting wrenches to other peoples jeeps, i highly recommend they take them to a professional to get looked over. you don't even have the first clue as to what makes a belt work, let alone on how, OR WHY, a belt tension has to be set. that makes you reckless and arrogant beyond belief.
i am now enraged to the point i cant even carry this on further at this point........................................................
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It sounds like the consensus is that the belt dressing is a bad idea...I will keep this in mind. I've really never used more than a quick (1-second) squirt on the moving belt, so maybe this is why it has worked for me. Anyway, a slight tighten would do just as well in any case.
And I'm all for discussion and don't mind being told I'm wrong, I just prefer a more civil tone. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I'd rather have an interesting discussion of a subject than just be told I'm wrong.
I have recently devised a unique rear driveshaft setup using all common throwaway parts that allows lift up to 4.5" on a XJ with minimal vibes, and no SYE required. Also allows removal of rear driveshaft without losing atf trom t-case. Also allows full droop without yoke ears colliding without t-case drop or with minimal t-case drop. I was thinking of doing a mini-writeup of it...should I bother?
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shut-up
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well........ iam not going to be as nice as some of the other people that have responded to your post. your an idiot. so yes, you and your regurgitated, recycled Internet tec crap from "nearly a hundred forums" can go back to NAXJA. the very people you say you are trying to help with this type of Internet techno crap are the ones who will be hurt the most, for the very reasons you say, they don't know enough to know better. if you are really out there putting wrenches to other peoples jeeps, i highly recommend they take them to a professional to get looked over. you don't even have the first clue as to what makes a belt work, let alone on how, OR WHY, a belt tension has to be set. that makes you reckless and arrogant beyond belief.
i am now enraged to the point i cant even carry this on further at this point........................................................
Well I'm not going to name any names because I don't want to embarass anyone, but I was contacted a little while ago by a member of this forum. He was looking for some cheap tires since he had chewed through the outside edge of a couple of sets of fronts, and he saw that I had some for sale. I honestly couldn't just sell the guy the tires, I insisted that he bring the jeep by and told him I would see if I could figure out the problem. He was not optimistic about my chances of figuring it out but he came by anyway. I checked out his Jeep and found it to have excessive toe-in due to his 2" budget lift. Using a big pipe wrench (probably not the correct tool) I adjusted his alignment in my garage using tape measures. Of course I told him he would need to go to a shop if he wanted it to be perfect. Then I sold him some tires and he went on his merry way. That night he pm'd me that he "never knew his jeep could drive so straight" and that he had thought sudden weird swerves were part of the "jeep thing". He was very appreciative, and I was happy to help him out.
rocnrol: you may wish to consider anger management. And I would suggest that in my experience degenerating to personal insults isn't cool on web forums.
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yes you should bother !! ....i think maybe you should ad at the end that this works for you may not work for others " try at your own risk "
so your no longer accused of "regurgitating"
i would also like to ad i have seen and heard of a 1000 ideas that people have done to fix or prolong a break. These ideas have worked for them .....and may have worked for others ....but the average joe should problly just fix it right ;)
as a close i think you should carry on with your ideas and people should just take what they can get from it, And thats it 8)
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well........ iam not going to be as nice as some of the other people that have responded to your post. your an idiot. so yes, you and your regurgitated, recycled Internet tec crap from "nearly a hundred forums" can go back to NAXJA. the very people you say you are trying to help with this type of Internet techno crap are the ones who will be hurt the most, for the very reasons you say, they don't know enough to know better. if you are really out there putting wrenches to other peoples jeeps, i highly recommend they take them to a professional to get looked over. you don't even have the first clue as to what makes a belt work, let alone on how, OR WHY, a belt tension has to be set. that makes you reckless and arrogant beyond belief.
i am now enraged to the point i cant even carry this on further at this point........................................................
calm down.
all he is trying to do is give ideas and options.
some things may not work for everyone, but some things do.
I have talked to Boone about the drive shaft thing and it sounds good.
if you don't have anything good to say, keep it to yourself.
you can not agree with someone, but name calling is not required, and is rude and not something that helps anyone.
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calm down.
all he is trying to do is give ideas and options.
some things may not work for everyone, but some things do.
I have talked to Boone about the drive shaft thing and it sounds good.
if you don't have anything good to say, keep it to yourself.
you can not agree with someone, but name calling is not required, and is rude and not something that helps anyone.
X 2 8)
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rocnrol,
you are completely out of line. This is not Pirate.
a guy comes on to offer some stuff and gets crapped on for one small item of a lot of stuff he is offering for 'discussion', so he puts his heart on his sleeve wondering why...no biggie.
In all the years i have been in Calgary, which i still consider a small town, i have come to realize that everyone knows someone that knows you.
Its a small town. No need to treat people badly.
He's trying.
i guess if belt dressing is so completely VILE and DISGUSTING, they would not sell it? But they do.
All this talk about how BRUTAL of an idea it is and yet NOT ONE PERSON has provided any data that shows the life of a belt is so detrimentally shortened by using it.
So rocnrol, put up or shut up ;)
How many miles can one expect on a belt not using dressing for a minor squeal
How many miles if one uses belt dressing.
Obviously not the best solution but a band aid.
But other than the DRESSING, has the guy offered or contributed anything to this site?
Bad day Rob?
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Sorry guys... This name calling crap is frowned upon on this site. There are other ways to say your opinion.
go to Pitare, 4wheeler , not here dude.
I don't know what the heck is in the air these days... I think people are bored and need drama. ::)
Dom
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I don't know what the heck is in the air these days... I think people are bored and need drama. ::)
X2 Says Christa :o
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I don't know what the heck is in the air these days... I think people are bored and need drama. ::)
C'mon now Dom, you've been around long enough to know that this happens every year around this time. :'(
People really gotta winter wheel more ;D takes the stress out of everyday life.
Vince
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you don't even have the first clue as to what makes a belt work, let alone on how, OR WHY, a belt tension has to be set. that makes you reckless and arrogant beyond belief.
well this is the 'tech' section...let's hear what makes a belt work, and how and why belt tension has to be set?
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well this is the 'tech' section...let's hear what makes a belt work, and how and why belt tension has to be set?
The belt keeps my pants up, if its not tensioned properly then my pants fall down :( Mine works by pushing a small metal rod through a hole in the leather to hold it in a certain position. I don't use any "dressing" on mine, if it gets dusty then I just use a damp cloth to wipe it off.
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The belt keeps my pants up, if its not tensioned properly then my pants fall down :( Mine works by pushing a small metal rod through a hole in the leather to hold it in a certain position. I don't use any "dressing" on mine, if it gets dusty then I just use a damp cloth to wipe it off.
Hardcore
So if I blow a belt on the trail I can just stuff my 34" black leather reversible from Mark Work Warehouse in there? Will the belt buckle cause vibrations, or should I just spray on some dressing? :P
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LMAO !!!! ;D ;D Thats too funny thanks guys i had a good laugh ;)
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found it to have excessive toe-in due to his 2" budget lift. Using a big pipe wrench I adjusted his alignment in my garage using tape measures.
You must be an engineer?
Carry on with the Tech. It's getting gooder and gooder ;D
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belt dressing is a product that is left over from the old days, when belts were flat leather, and needed a dressing to grip. the modern v-belt is enginered to grip by a very different method. if you take a v-belt and bend it, you will see that the sides bulge out. it is this bulging as the belt moves around the sheave that grips in the groove. as allready stated by trained profesionls on this thread, if your belt is squeeling or making noise, there is an underlying issue that needs to be resolved. the aplication of dressing will attract abrasive material and degrade your belt, causing your problem to worsen, not get better. to say that a spec is "pretty friken tight" and that pro-techs and shops would do an adjustment to some arbitray bench mark just to get some one out of thier shop is where i get my hackels up.
if you are talking about a flat serpintine belt, the small groves on the one side are doing the same thing as i have all ready mentioned, but enginiers have taken the guess work out of belt tension by prviding a preset tension spring. if there is issues in a system such as this, again, there is underlying issues.
this tech fourms are for exactly what jpthing has said, to help people with little or no experience in wrenching on their stuff. not to be led down the garden path by some free thinker who does not wish to listen to the sound, trained advise from a "pro-tech" .being a journyman read seal millwright, i take great exception to this attitude. if all jpthing is doing is wrenching on his stuff, i wouldnt have cared so much, but the fact that he is offering up such a missinformed service to even lesser informed people is where i start to draw the line. no bad day for me tom, just people that pushed the wrong button with me.
in case your wondering, in a simple v-belt instalation, proper tension would be 1/64" deflection per inch of span using a deflection force (pull in pounds) rated for the belt you are using. for instance, a B belt uses 8 pounds pull for new belts, 2 pounds other wise. see there is even a spec for new belts to acount for stretch, not just pretty frikin tight.
and jpthing, i have taken anger managment, and for the most part the tools i learned do a great job for me day to day, its just that there is allways that one.......................
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for any one who is unsure of their belt tension this is a belt tension gauge:
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii191/pookapotamus/posts/belt-gauge.gif)
they are inexpensive and most profesional shops have one. now quit being 14 year old girls and get back to wheeling!
p.s. yes fraser you could proble use this on your belt but you might have problems pooing afterwards. ;)
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thanks rocnrol.
that helps guys like me (mechanically inept). i also see where the hackles were understandably raised. Sometimes all it takes is that final button push.
i will tighten my belt.
:)
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I'm pretty sure that jpthing said he was open for discussion on his posts. I too agree that the tone of the replys would have gotten my heckles up. Nobody likes to be treated like an idiot.
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for any one who is unsure of their belt tension this is a belt tension gauge:
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii191/pookapotamus/posts/belt-gauge.gif)
they are inexpensive and most profesional shops have one. now quit being 14 year old girls and get back to wheeling!
p.s. yes fraser you could proble use this on your belt but you might have problems pooing afterwards. ;)
That's the one and only tool that will tell you if youre belt is correctly tensioned . Anything else is a rough guess . Yes I have one .
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Wow great response. Thanks.
rocnrol, thanks for your coherant response.
I would like to clarify a few of my points.
Perhaps I was misunderstood, but I never meant to disparage the integrity of pro techs. What I meant when I said that the proper spec is "pretty fricken tight" is this: With all mechanical things, it is rare to find anything which is perfect, more often it's the "perfect compromise". The proper spec is a compromise, in my opinion. Longevity of bearings is compromised to gain long term depedibilty. A shop must set the belt to a setting which is tight enough that it would be highly unlikely that the belt would ever slip for a long period, probably a couple of years. "the belt strecthed" or "it was tight enough not to slip when it was warm out" would seem like pretty lame excuses to the customer. So belts are set tight enough to prevent comebacks. From what my buddies have told me, there's one thing all the pros hate and thats comebacks. So even though it could conceivably extend the life of your pulley and alternator etc. bearings to set the belt looser, the priority would be to make your belt not slip. (It could be stated that tighter would be better for the shop's interests, since they could habve you back in a year or two for bearings but I wouldn't want to suggest there are any pro shops out there scamming the public ;)) So what I am suggesting is a different compromise setting. One which prioritizes longevity of components which are already assaulted by mud and water, and recognizes that, to the average jeeper, adjusting a belt once and a while if it squeals is no big deal.
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As for the belt tensionchecking tool, ya obviosly they are a cool tool, however the only cheap ones I have seen are for v-belts, if anyone knows a cheap source for a serp belt tension checker I would be interested.
rocnrol, you seem to be talking about the spring loaded belt tensioners more. The jeeps I own am am talking about have bolt tensioners.
Rocnrol has said my ideas are terrible but I would like him to please explain why...Assuming we leave the belt dressing in the can, what's wrong with running the belt a little looser? My belts don't squeal 99.9% of the time, my charging system is happy, my temp never rises above normal, my power steering always has power, my belt has never flown off. What's the big deal? Is my jeep going to spontaeneosly combust?
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why your idea is bad is because with out the proper tension, the belt wont be allowed to grip the sheave properly. remember how i said the belt bulges and its the bulge that grips? with out the right tension you are loosing out on the effectiveness (for lack of a better word) of the belts ability to transmit torque. as well, everytime the belt slips, ie the squeal, you are glazing the belt, which promotes it to actually slip more, which glazes it more and the cycle repeats until the belt is ruined, not to mention the sheave as well. i will put my ticket on the line and guaranty that bearing life will not be reduced if proper tension is used on your belts.
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more on bearing failure. bearing life is called its b10 life. look at the link to get kinda the idew of what i am talking about and you will see the bearings are quite ok in thier job.
http://www.motionbrgs.com/engineering_data.htm (http://www.motionbrgs.com/engineering_data.htm)
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Do you think it's going to cause problems if a) it's tight enough for everything to always work properly and b) if it only squeals for around half a second once or twice a month?
Again I think you are missing my point...I could tighten the belt slightly more, it would never slip, but it would still be looser than spec. That would be a problem?
And as for your "ticket challenge": Ask any engineer, automotive or otherwise. There is no question whatsoever that the life of a bearing is directly relative to the loads that are placed on it. It is also a known fact among automotive professionals that overtightening the belt can damage bearings. So how is it a stretch to conclude that lessening the tension could extend their life?
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more on bearing failure. bearing life is called its b10 life. look at the link to get kinda the idew of what i am talking about and you will see the bearings are quite ok in thier job.
http://www.motionbrgs.com/engineering_data.htm (http://www.motionbrgs.com/engineering_data.htm)
Was this data obtained from muddy jeeps?
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no, its not from muddy jeep. i am not advocating overtightening your belts, that would be bad. losser then spec is a problem.would you run, say a head bolt at a lesser spec for fear of stretching it?
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Dude, please do the write up. I've got a 4 inch lift on my 89 and a few vibes, nothing serious but I would like to get rid of the T-case drop...
Not to start anything here but I got a serious taste of professional mechanics...
I've got an 89 so no OBD or nothing, I guess you need a special code reader so I took it to the jeep dealership here in High River. One hour and $125 later the guy tells me to replace my plugs and wires and that I needed to set my timing. I'm pretty sure they didn't hook it up or even know how to extract any codes as I guess you have to have it running and induce the problem for it to show up... Anyways, the professionals at the dealership can kick rocks for all I care.
So uh yeah, how do I make a better drive shaft for 4 inches of lift for cheap heh?
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no, its not from muddy jeep. i am not advocating overtightening your belts, that would be bad. losser then spec is a problem.would you run, say a head bolt at a lesser spec for fear of stretching it?
Buddy, I'm getting sick of arguing.
I've had lots of problems with blown alternator bearings, and I have chewed through lots of idler pulleys over the years. On the other hand I have had zero problems with belt slippage. You do the math.
And if I had had a problem in the past with the head bolts stretching I would consider touquing it lower the next time. But that is so far removed from what we are discussing that's borderline on the absurd. A loose head bolt could cause serious problems. A loose belt could...slip (gasp) or squeal (oh goodness) unless you tightened it a little. And it could cause a (good lord no) glazed belt....I'm so terrified about glazed belts that I think I'm going to go tighten all my belts right now...sorry, gotta go.
rocnrol, despite your initial hostile response you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Why don't you do some write ups of tech tips that you think are cool? I'm totally man enough to say that whether the belts are a little tighter or a little looser is really no big deal in the big picture. I'm not recommending greasing your rotors or running your u-joints without grease or saying pros are idiots.
Do you disagree that bearing life is directly relative to load on said bearing?
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I'm done on here for today but I will try to post it up over the next coupla days!
Thanks for the "positive vibrations" (no reference to your driveshaft intended)
Sorry, forgot to do the quote thing but this was in response to thinder'S post.
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rocnrol, despite your initial hostile response you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Why don't you do some write ups of tech tips that you think are cool? I'm totally man enough to say that whether the belts are a little tighter or a little looser is really no big deal in the big picture. I'm not recommending greasing your rotors or running your u-joints without grease or saying pros are idiots.
sorry man thats a horrible idea. we do not need people making post like this all the time offering advise that is at best, marginal; this isn't Jeepforum,; post it there or NAXJA you'll probalby get a tonne of praise from people that don't know thier arse from a wrench.
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There are no codes to be had in an '89. All you can do when hooking it to a scanner is read certain real time data such as timing advance, rpm, O2 voltage.... There are no stored codes to be read.
The only problem with running a belt loose is as Rocnrol said, every time it slips it gets a bit more glazed, the more glazed it gets the more likely it is to slip. When it does slip it will be when its under high load, just when you need it most.
The bearings were chosen to be able to handle the load of a belt at proper tension. Yes, over tightening the belt will reduce their life and theoretically leaving it loose could extend it, but at the cost of the belt for really little gain to the life of the bearings. I am quite satisfied with life span of the bearings on my vehicles, as I said I only had to do the idler once on the 100,000kms that I had my XJ. I really dont think leaving the belt a bit loose would have extended it that much. Also come to think of it that bearing was far cheaper than a good quality Gatorback belt. A mute point I know....
I myself have a HUGE load on my belt when wheeling due to the electric fan I swapped in and running the winch adds a big load plus the upgraded alt, AC compressor.... it all adds up. I myself do NOT want to hear the belt squealing when I kick in the winch when out wheeling.
The ``proper tension`` is not an exact science and when I think about this thread I start to laugh inside that so much effort is being expelled on this topic, however it is the middle of February so what can you do.... :D Here is how I do it, tighten it up nice and snug but don`t go nuts on it. If it squeals tighten it a bit more.
And you are right... we techs HATE come backs. Comebacks mean I screwed up. I will tighten a new belt on the tighter side of things knowing that with a few days of driving the belt WILL stretch and be at the correct tension. I do NOT believe this causes any extra measurable wear on the bearings and I think that 99.9% of the the people out there who take their cars in to have a belt replaced will prefer this method over the hassle of bringing the car back a week later for me retighten the belt.
I replace FAR more belts than I do bearings which tells me that the bearings are handling the loads ok.
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I might be out to lunch but I doubt it. I recall being told head bolts are supposed to stretch when you torque them, that's why you don't re-use them, because when you take them out they might not 'spring' back to where they were new.
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personally i could care less if i change pulley bearings and alternators every year. i need 100% performance from my drive belt system when im wheeling. so, it will go tight. my concern is of performance. not trying to save a few bucks. besides, you found a cheap way to replace the bearings so why not go tight and then there wont be any issues.
as well, i rinse a lot of engines with water at work and the belts always get wet. i blow dry them a little but i cant get it all dry. my trick is to use a little floor dry/kitty litter. just drop some of the powder onto the belt as its running and the squeek will disapear instantly. i blow dry any left over floor dry off the engine and go for a drive. i like this because it keeps the belt dry, no sprays or oils touch the belt.
some head bolts are designed to stretch. if you have a torque sequence on head bolts that ends with an extra 90 degree turn, thats the stretch part.
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the head bolt thing was just an analogy. but bolt torque specs stretch the bolt just enough so as not to exceed its elasticity, that's how it will hold its clamping force. if it gets over torqued, it permanently stretches and is ruined, under torqued, and proper clamp force is not achieved.
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There are no codes to be had in an '89. All you can do when hooking it to a scanner is read certain real time data such as timing advance, rpm, O2 voltage.... There are no stored codes to be read.
The only problem with running a belt loose is as Rocnrol said, every time it slips it gets a bit more glazed, the more glazed it gets the more likely it is to slip. When it does slip it will be when its under high load, just when you need it most.
The bearings were chosen to be able to handle the load of a belt at proper tension. Yes, over tightening the belt will reduce their life and theoretically leaving it loose could extend it, but at the cost of the belt for really little gain to the life of the bearings. I am quite satisfied with life span of the bearings on my vehicles, as I said I only had to do the idler once on the 100,000kms that I had my XJ. I really dont think leaving the belt a bit loose would have extended it that much. Also come to think of it that bearing was far cheaper than a good quality Gatorback belt. A mute point I know....
I myself have a HUGE load on my belt when wheeling due to the electric fan I swapped in and running the winch adds a big load plus the upgraded alt, AC compressor.... it all adds up. I myself do NOT want to hear the belt squealing when I kick in the winch when out wheeling.
The ``proper tension`` is not an exact science and when I think about this thread I start to laugh inside that so much effort is being expelled on this topic, however it is the middle of February so what can you do.... :D Here is how I do it, tighten it up nice and snug but don`t go nuts on it. If it squeals tighten it a bit more.
And you are right... we techs HATE come backs. Comebacks mean I screwed up. I will tighten a new belt on the tighter side of things knowing that with a few days of driving the belt WILL stretch and be at the correct tension. I do NOT believe this causes any extra measurable wear on the bearings and I think that 99.9% of the the people out there who take their cars in to have a belt replaced will prefer this method over the hassle of bringing the car back a week later for me retighten the belt.
I replace FAR more belts than I do bearings which tells me that the bearings are handling the loads ok.
I have never replaced a belt due to glazing.
I have replaced many belts due to cracking.
I'm pretty sure increased belt tension would contribute to cracking, both by phisically stretching the belt, as well as the additional heat the belt will contend with at greater tensions.
Yes, the belts and pulleys are engineered to withstand these stresses, but they are also engineered with a finite lifespan. Changing the operating conditions can change the lifespan.
You are correct, bearings are cheap, but pulleys are not (which is what a lot of guys would use). And alternators cost a fortune. I have replaced several alternators due to bearing failure.
cLay, you said yourself you would rather err on the side of too-tight than too loose, with the logic that it will stretch to proper tension...that can't do anything good for the longterm life expectancy of the belt. Of course it's still the right choice in a shop setting, but not for me or my jeep. I would rather fine tune the belt to run at the loosest setting where it does not slip.
I will worry about what has caused me problems in the past. If you have not experienced these problems then obviously my advice on how to deal with these problems will not be suitable for you.
I have enjoyed the discussion, thanks to everyone who has contributed, I think it's time to move on.
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I agree the best setting is is just tight enough not to squeal, if its squealing its slipping and glazing.
slipping =glazing
Glazing = heat
heat = cracking
cracking = bad
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I agree with rocnrol everything posted here. Besides the fact that he is just right, there is also the application to consider.
This is an offroading sight. Offroaders accessories are subjected to higher loads then your everyday use vehicle. Our steering systems are worked to the maximum, our bearings and alternators get polluted with foreign material. At no time do want to risk a loose accessory system in an effort to make a few cheap bearings last an extra month.
Honestly, in out application, the bearings will all die prematurely due to invasive and corrosive damage long before they will wear out due to normal use.
There is absolutely no reason to ever run a belt system on the "looser" side of spec, specially with offroad vehicles.
If this thread did anything it brought out some actual techs that know their stuff and put some of the misinformation JP was thinking to rest.
Thanks JP for bringing it up, and thanks Rocnrol for setting things straight.
Good thread over all.
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thanks bnine
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I respectfully disagree and will continue to run my belts at the loosest setting where slippage does not occur, as I have been doing without issues for about a year now.
Just for the sake of discussion, I loosened the belt on my TJ last night to what I figured was absolutely the loosest reasonable setting. The idlers can be forced to slip against the belt by using your hand to turn them. That's pretty loose! This morning, cold start, not plugged in, it started fine with no slippage or squealing. I'm taking it out to Waip today, as is, with a belt so loose you could pull it off by hand if you tried (you'd never get it back on without adjusting the tensioner though), and I will report how it worked at this ridiculously loose setting.
Something to consider is that it wouldn't be noticeable if the alt or water pump slipped a little, but with the power steering, you would notice increased steering effort immediatly. So if my power steering is working, I will assume my belt is not slipping. Also I am not suggesting your belt should slip. I am reccomending using the loosest setting which never slips rather than setting it to a "spec" which suits a wide variety of vehicles, users, and objectives.
Obviously heat is an enemy of the belt and basic physics demonstrates that the greater the tension on the belt the greater the friction and heat.
Please explain what the perceived hazard is of running it looser than spec assuming it does not slip during use......
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I think the hazard from running it really loose and telling us about it is the ongoing arguments on this forum. If it's working well now why are you messing with it? It's obviously not broken.
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Sorry, I'll make my point..... I've got over 100,000km on my jeep. If a bearing goes on the belt system I'll fix it. It'll probably last another 100,000km or how ever long it's going to last. If I were to mess with now I'd never know exactly how long it would have lasted, thus not being able to quantify if the changes actually helped or not. If I was always fixing the same thing, then it'd be time to figure out what's causing it.
I think you've beaten this horse with the proverbial stick enough. If you're not constantly fixing the same problem you're wasting your time on something that's not broken.
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I agree
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well I agree this topic has just about had it, but it annoys me when people tell me that something I can see right in front of me working fine does not work, and use their credentials to scare people away from an idea which has very little risk...if your belt slips, you can just tighten it up a little. It's really not that scary.
I ran the belt super loose all day today(way looser than what I suggested). Everything worked fine all day, out to waiporous and back, and all day on the trail. And even at this ridiculouly loose setting it worked fine and the power steering alternator and water pump functioned as intended. I "risked a loose accessory system" as bnine said (wow that makes it sound super scary!!) and nothing happened. It didn't squeal once all day except for about half a second while I was blasting through powder and the belt got all snowy. I'm going to tighten it up a little, but I wish the naysayers would back down from their "only one way is right" attitude and accept that a) it's really no big deal and b)it's working for me and c)that it could work for others who may choose to try it.
And I would suggest that those who are finding this thread "hazardous" avoid it. I am finding it quite entertaining!
Cheers!
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The belt keeps my pants up, if its not tensioned properly then my pants fall down :( Mine works by pushing a small metal rod through a hole in the leather to hold it in a certain position. I don't use any "dressing" on mine, if it gets dusty then I just use a damp cloth to wipe it off.
My Belt doesnt get dusty cuz I have a bit of an overhang above it to sheild it from dust!!!! ;)
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My Belt doesnt get dusty cuz I have a bit of an overhang above it to sheild it from dust!!!! ;)
I thinks that overhang's supposed to be for holding beers and wrenches. (and possibly repelling wenches?)
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It has nothing to due with scary and everything to do with being pointless bad advice. Period.
I hope you dont approach all these diffs you are going to work on with this "abstract" attitude of yours.
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It has nothing to due with scary and everything to do with being pointless bad advice. Period.
I hope you dont approach all these diffs you are going to work on with this "abstract" attitude of yours.
All what diffs? I was offering people the use of tools...
but so far my diffs are good.thanks for your concern.
Wait til you see my thread on junkyard budget lift ideas...all tried and tested of course .I have had several people asking so I am just trying to locate the req'd photos. I think you will "enjoy" it.
Interestingly enough I haven't got around to tightening the TJ's belt it's still ridiculously loose and stiil working fine, no squeals even since that time in the snow. I guess I'm still waiting for something terrible to happen. And I guess it would be impossible that my bearings are enjoying the lighter load?
Experts by definition must give proper advice...even if it's wrong. A proffesional cannot tell you to do something that a textbook says is "wrong". If a customer came into a dealership and asked whether you could use hockey pucks for body lifts, what do you think the experts would say? Despite the fact that I could show you a 1993 ford van that's had a hockey puck body lift since 93, same pucks, no issues, they would say "no, you should buy a proper brand name body lift from a reputable supplier". Try asking Jeep if half the stuff we do would work and they would say "no". That hasn't stopped us from trying anyway, and learning along the way what works and what doesn't.
If I asked jeep about my the oil/zinc issue, do you honestly think they would give the question any thought or do any research or would they just look it up in a book and say "no it just says to use 5w30, sir..." To me any serious question deserves a real consideration and thought, even if some beleive all the right answers are already in a book some where. Simply saying what is already written in the haynes book does not qualify as exploration or trial of a concept.
personally, if something works for me and is not safety related, I don't always listen to the experts. Honestly a lot of innovation and great crazy ideas has come from not listening to the naysaying experts but just trying it anyway.
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hockey puck lifts are dangerous, but i am sure you tried it out on a barbecue first with ill results, so party on garth.
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personally, if something works for me and is not safety related, I don't always listen to the experts. Honestly a lot of innovation and great crazy ideas has come from not listening to the naysaying experts but just trying it anyway.
The same can be said for a lot koolade being drank, and a lot retards wasting a lot of time, energy, and money trying to fix something that wasnt broke.
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hockey puck lifts are dangerous, but i am sure you tried it out on a barbecue first with ill results, so party on garth.
Why is a single hockey puck (not stacked) used as a body lift dangerous?
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All what diffs? I was offering people the use of tools...
but so far my diffs are good.thanks for your concern.
Wait til you see my thread on junkyard budget lift ideas...all tried and tested of course .I have had several people asking so I am just trying to locate the req'd photos. I think you will "enjoy" it.
so, when you are doing a gearsetup, even if the backlash is supposeed to be within 6 - 10 thousands as is spec, if its a little off, like 15 thou, thats probably not that bad right? less preload on the bearing so it should last longer right? well damn, my diff hasn't blown up yet so it must be correct.
please stop posting your 'bargain' ideas as 'cheap solutions' before someone tries it, hurts themselves and comes back on our group because they 'read' it here. your first three posts have been fun to read, but I'm sick of it. and no, i 'don't have to read it' but i do, as have many others. and you are being politely asked now, STOP posting this garbage; if you want to be praised for your junkyard ideas go post it up on jeepforum or something where people have no clue what you're talking about.
lor Pirate..... that'd be funnier
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so, when you are doing a gearsetup, even if the backlash is supposeed to be within 6 - 10 thousands as is spec, if its a little off, like 15 thou, thats probably not that bad right? less preload on the bearing so it should last longer right? well damn, my diff hasn't blown up yet so it must be correct.
please stop posting your 'bargain' ideas as 'cheap solutions' before someone tries it, hurts themselves and comes back on our group because they 'read' it here. your first three posts have been fun to read, but I'm sick of it. and no, i 'don't have to read it' but i do, as have many others. and you are being politely asked now, STOP posting this garbage; if you want to be praised for your junkyard ideas go post it up on jeepforum or something where people have no clue what you're talking about.
lor Pirate..... that'd be funnier
Diffs and belts are pretty different. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Are you speaking in your official CJA capacity?
I've had several people interested in my setup to correct XJ rear leaf sag cheaply and easily. It is certainly safer if your leafs are not sagging nearly to your bumpstops, IMO. Are you saying these types of topics are not welcome on your site? If that is the case, I will cease and desist but I must have missed that part when I read the forum rules.
cheap junkyard tech intrigues me and my jeeps are living proof that it can work for some.
Which one of my bargain ideas could hurt someone JOhnnyC?
don't tell me you guys are scared of my body lift cuz it's made from hockey pucks...really?
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so, when you are doing a gearsetup, even if the backlash is supposeed to be within 6 - 10 thousands as is spec, if its a little off, like 15 thou, thats probably not that bad right? less preload on the bearing so it should last longer right? well damn, my diff hasn't blown up yet so it must be correct.
please stop posting your 'bargain' ideas as 'cheap solutions' before someone tries it, hurts themselves and comes back on our group because they 'read' it here. your first three posts have been fun to read, but I'm sick of it. and no, i 'don't have to read it' but i do, as have many others. and you are being politely asked now, STOP posting this garbage; if you want to be praised for your junkyard ideas go post it up on jeepforum or something where people have no clue what you're talking about.
lor Pirate..... that'd be funnier
;D
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/0/03/Banhammer.jpeg)
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too funny serge.....
jpthin
just my opinion; not CJA official........ these are open forums; unfortunately, there is no real forum for these posts. I for one, do not classify your writeups as 'tech' but more of you 'tooting' your own horn because you found a cheaper way to do something.........
again, if it works for you that is great. but what works for one, does not work for others.
MAYBE at the next meeting (if it was of any inclination of yours to come out and see what we are all about asides from webwheeling) we could discuss opening another forum for 'junkyard fixes or ideas' possibly. and we could put a disclaimer on there for 'read at your own risk' NOT necesarily endorsed by licensed Techs. then we could have long lasting arguments over who's the cheapest, and who gets the best 'bang for your buck'
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Just make a section for "junkyard fixes on the cheap", and put the disclaimer on the opening page and be done with it.
This has been entertaining, but I am done with it.
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too funny serge.....
jpthin
just my opinion; not CJA official........ these are open forums; unfortunately, there is no real forum for these posts. I for one, do not classify your writeups as 'tech' but more of you 'tooting' your own horn because you found a cheaper way to do something.........
again, if it works for you that is great. but what works for one, does not work for others.
MAYBE at the next meeting (if it was of any inclination of yours to come out and see what we are all about asides from webwheeling) we could discuss opening another forum for 'junkyard fixes or ideas' possibly. and we could put a disclaimer on there for 'read at your own risk' NOT necesarily endorsed by licensed Techs. then we could have long lasting arguments over who's the cheapest, and who gets the best 'bang for your buck'
I came to your last meeting and open run and I was planning on going to the meeting tomorrow but now I'm unsure if this club is a good fit for me. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I'm shocked at the name calling and insults and personal attacks that your moderators allow. I have been interested in membership for a while now, but I'm having second thoughts now based on my experiences on this board. And JOhnnyC your idea of opening a cheap tech forum is a good idea...but too late for me.
I will take my time, energy and enthusiams elsewhere.
cLAY thanks for your positive comments. It's good to hear that what works for me is working for others too.
rocnrol you still need to explain why you beleive hockey puck lifts are dangerous. Just saying so doesn't really have any value unless you can back up your claim.
Naysayers are a dime a dozen. People willing to try new ideas and share their findings with the aim of helping others are rare.
Some of my tech tips could be described as "junkyard fixes on the cheap" but sometimes they are just better.
I have helped several friends do "bastard pack" add-a leafs using junk parts and they are all holding up fine. Another guy I know bought proper add-a-leafs from the 4X4 shop and they are already cracked less than a year later.
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;D
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/0/03/Banhammer.jpeg)
Are you honestly implying I should be banned?
I have called no one any names, nor disparaged anyone's career choices.
I guess tech discussion is only ok here if you agree with it?
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Why is a single hockey puck (not stacked) used as a body lift dangerous?
The silence is deafening
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hockey puck lifts are dangerous, but i am sure you tried it out on a barbecue first with ill results, so party on garth.
Note the unsubstantiated claim followed by the uncalled for insult...wow great post. You are adding so much to this discussion. Thanks for bringing your expertise to this thread.
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Naysayers are a dime a dozen. People willing to try new ideas and share their findings with the aim of helping others are rare.
Thats the thing, your ingenuity is not new. Hockey puck body lifts, peice together drivelines that vibrate, and other various garbarge tech have all been around for years.
Any hockey pucks used in body lifts are dangerous because they are brittle and prone to exploding into little peices. Its been done time and time again by cheap red necks. You are not original.
If you are going to get all butthurt every time someone points out flaws in your ideas then by all means, dont let the door hit you on the way out.
Your tech is crap, and your attitude is worse. Unless you are a dramatically different person offline, well...........................
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Thats the thing, your ingenuity is not new. Hockey puck body lifts, peice together drivelines that vibrate, and other various garbarge tech have all been around for years.
Any hockey pucks used in body lifts are dangerous because they are brittle and prone to exploding into little peices. Its been done time and time again by cheap red necks. You are not original.
If you are going to get all butthurt every time someone points out flaws in your ideas then by all means, dont let the door hit you on the way out.
Your tech is crap, and your attitude is worse. Unless you are a dramatically different person offline, well...........................
I have a good friend who works doing wheelchair conversions on vans. They used hockey pucks for many years without problems. The materials sold as body lifts are in many cases much brittler than hockey puck rubber i.e. hard plastic. So you actually believe that a hockey puck can withstand a 70MPH slapshot hitting a solid wall but can't support 500kg?
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I have a good friend who works doing wheelchair conversions on vans. They used hockey pucks for many years without problems. The materials sold as body lifts are in many cases much brittler than hockey puck rubber i.e. hard plastic. So you actually believe that a hockey puck can withstand a 70MPH slapshot hitting a solid wall but can't support 500kg?
Thats it. You really are a full blown idiot.
Hockey pucks shatter with slap shots all the time.
The delrin used for spacers in after market lifts is an entirely different composition then a hockey puck, and is not one that is prone to shattering.
You need to move on. Take your retarded sht to four wheeler or someowhere else. As long as it isnt here.
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Experts by definition must give proper advice...even if it's wrong. A proffesional cannot tell you to do something that a textbook says is "wrong". If a customer came into a dealership and asked whether you could use hockey pucks for body lifts, what do you think the experts would say? Despite the fact that I could show you a 1993 ford van that's had a hockey puck body lift since 93, same pucks, no issues, they would say "no, you should buy a proper brand name body lift from a reputable supplier". Try asking Jeep if half the stuff we do would work and they would say "no". That hasn't stopped us from trying anyway, and learning along the way what works and what doesn't.
Hockey pucks have a purpose, and a reason why they are made. Rubber breaks down, especially when it has a hole drilled through the center,thats why brand name body lift manufacturers use injection molded plastic to make their spacers. You say there are no issues with the 93 VAN, how well does the phuck lift get inspected. And have you considered that if some of the pucks start fall out and a corner of the body drops, the linkages and lines that can be jamed or pinched. If it gets in an accident and those are issue you become liable.
I do the work on my vehicles so I like to save money but alot of R&D goes into parts and kits made specifically for your vehicles, thats part of the cost of the more expensive parts.
With all of the different budget minded modifications dthat you have done to your vehicles, I would say that you should start your own website and tell the world. But make sure you have a big fat disclaimer on the front page.
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Well thanks for your responses but not for the personal insults
Here is a link to a page from the royal purple website which talks about bearing life versus loading.
I beleive the chart starts at zero load.
As you can see, increased load results in decreased bearing life, as I said.
So for me if a belt's not slipping it's tight enough.
Thanks for a great discussion, I'm moving on.
http://www.royal-purple-industrial.com/reliability/reliability.html
Scroll down a bit to table 1
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what you are failing to understand is that:
a loose belt will also cause vibration in the bearings of the pullys. bearings are designed to accept a certain load tolerance too much load causes excecive wear as inversely so does too little load.
therefore just as you chart shows vibration causes excesive wear in your bearings.
therefore you should always tighten your belts to the manufacturers recomended specifications. ie. the belt tensioner gauge that i posted earlier.
just my 2 cents, but hey what would a 3D mechanical/piping designer know? ::)
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what you are failing to understand is that:
a loose belt will also cause vibration in the bearings of the pullys. bearings are designed to accept a certain load tolerance too much load causes excecive wear as inversely so does too little load.
therefore just as you chart shows vibration causes excesive wear in your bearings.
therefore you should always tighten your belts to the manufacturers recomended specifications. ie. the belt tensioner gauge that i posted earlier.
just my 2 cents, but hey what would a 3D mechanical/piping designer know? ::)
shows nothing Dana. you don't have an engineering background.
now why don't you go find some F150 coils and some one tonne leaf springs to get that XJ in the air?
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Its like a trainwreck...
Here is my take that has no tech merit as everyone knows i am mechanically inept.
The van with hockey pucks? Does it see the forces that would be applied to an offroad rig?
The bottom line is that we as 4x4 enthusiasts are trying so hard to be taken seriously by SRD.
We have come a long way.
We also have to have Transport Canada on our side as well. They are responsible for laws that will or will not allow
us to drive our 4x4's on the street. The absolute killer for us is booty fabbed crap on 4x4's that spend anytime on the road.
NHL lifts are not helping us.
i am sure that CJA is comprised of many that would laugh and giggle over your booty fab ideas at a campfire with a cold beer in hand,
discussing it with you and everyone left in a good mood, including you.
But, on the net, it seems like you are rubbing a few wrong.
There have been guys here that have contributed tech for years. Really GOOD tech.
You present stuff, get questioned/criticized, and than wonder why?
i am sure you are a good guy. You have not bashed anyone, you don't deserve the hammer obviously, but you need to SLOW down on the booty fab tech. It is starting to lose its charm. Some comments to you have been a tad brutal and are not warranted but...
Save it for the campfire. Person to person is so much more fun with the entertainment you have supplied.
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shows nothing Dana. you don't have an engineering background.
now why don't you go find some F150 coils and some one tonne leaf springs to get that XJ in the air?
i am soo going to take a crap in your alley johnny!
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what you are failing to understand is that:
a loose belt will also cause vibration in the bearings of the pullys. bearings are designed to accept a certain load tolerance too much load causes excecive wear as inversely so does too little load.
therefore just as you chart shows vibration causes excesive wear in your bearings.
therefore you should always tighten your belts to the manufacturers recomended specifications. ie. the belt tensioner gauge that i posted earlier.
just my 2 cents, but hey what would a 3D mechanical/piping designer know? ::)
That is an interesing point I had never considered that looseness could be a problem too, I will look into this further as well as talk to my engineering buddies about their thoghts on the subject.
It's too bad it took this long to begin to get intelligent comment and discussion. Unfortuneately, for most it is too late.
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It's too bad it took this long to begin to get intelligent comment and discussion. Unfortuneately, for most it is too late.
There was never anything intelligent about this conversasion. Just people that know what they are talking about, trying to explain the obvious to a self absorbed jack arse.
My patience was gone about an a page ago. I dont care if the others think you shouldnt be treated this harshly or not. You are being an idiot. If no one else will say it, I will.
Enoug is enough.
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This thread needs more pages.
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That is an interesing point I had never considered that looseness could be a problem too, I will look into this further as well as talk to my engineering buddies about their thoghts on the subject.
It's too bad it took this long to begin to get intelligent comment and discussion. Unfortuneately, for most it is too late.
Why bother talking to your engineering buddies about this? Do they work for the auto industry designing this type of stuff? Just because they are an engineer doesn't make them experts. For instance, the mechanical engineer friend of mine who decided to wire his basement because he's an engineer and can do anything. Sure he got it done but he didn't really know what he was doing. My point is, don't pull the "engineering" card because it usually doesn't matter. Another thing that doesn't matter is how many 100's of other forums you participate in. We don't care, and it makes you look bad by saying it, like bragging. What matters is the content of the information you bring to this forum, which if you can't tell isn't being received well.
As for some of your ideas, she they might get the job done for a short time but compare it to using impliment tires on your jeep and then taking it on the highway. They're just tires right? What happens when they fail because they weren't designed for what you're using them for. What the other guys are trying to get across is that when it comes to safety, lifts, that sort of thing, don't scab it together because you don't really know what its failing point will be, so don't try and convince someone that doesn't know any better to do it.
The other thing you're failing to grasp is that your butting heads with guys who either do this for a living and are good at it, or build their stuff to compete and have worked with R&D teams or know people on R&D teams that build some of the stuff that goes on our rigs. I don't know Bill, for instance, but I do know not to argue with him. He knows what he's talking about and has been around the club long enough and has helped a lot of people get their stuff running safely and reliably. So as a forum participant, how can we take what you say as good ideas when you're contradicting the people we either know and trust or know of and trust.
I'd give the tech ideas a rest if I were you. You're not making any friends doing so. Sure, if someone posts a problem and needs help, help away. Just think about your responce first. Like would you do this fix to the vehicle that transports your wife and kids. Or would you do this fix to a vehicle that passes your wife and kids on the road everyday.
The point is you don't have to comment on absolutely every topic, there's no need and it's usually not well received for what ever reason. Not that you shouldn't post at all, just be careful of the advice you try and give.
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Is this guy wrong?
http://www.justanswer.com/questions/35lt6-im-hoping-you-guys-can-help-settle-an-arguement-when-my-belt
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if you look hard enough on the internet i bet you can find someone to agree with you that the Earth is flat too............
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WAIT! WTF the earth is not flat??? since when?
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if you look hard enough on the internet i bet you can find someone to agree with you that the Earth is flat too............
That was the first guy I asked on the first website that came up under "auto expert"
If you disagree let's talk about why and maybe actually acomplish something.. Two expert techs agreed, running your belt loose is fine if it doesn't slip.
Tech should not ve a poularity contest.
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naw. you win. its better to run them loose. no more discussion. the horse is dead; its been flogged, and Noel used it as an RTI ramp.
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I don't care if you guys agree with me, I just take exception to people categorizing an idea as idiotic which pro techs say is fine. Running your belt loose will not save the world or bring jesus back, but it'd be nice if we could agree that it is not the great satan and will not cause fire to rain from the sky as some have (almost) suggested.
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but pro designers have said it is not a good idea, why do you refuse to take the word directly from the horses mouth and trust somebody off the internet?
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Is this guy wrong?
http://www.justanswer.com/questions/35lt6-im-hoping-you-guys-can-help-settle-an-arguement-when-my-belt
No, you are
(http://www.hoseheadforums.com/images/uploadedimages/Forums/media/harriet_othelo/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg)
"Tight" is a relative term, you want to argue if something should be tighter or looser (also a relative term) without even knowing it's actual tension.
Perhaps your belt is even tighter then spec for all we know, but I doubt it, since you said it still squeals sometimes. "outside tech" above says if it squeals it's too loose, yours squeals, it's too loose, or maybe it's just singing you a pretty song because it's happy that you tossed the salad dressing all over it.
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if you look hard enough on the internet i bet you can find someone to agree with you that the Earth is flat too............
Pretty easy to find actually. This is the real deal too. ???
http://theflatearthsociety.net/talk/
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Pretty easy to find actually. This is the real deal too. ???
http://theflatearthsociety.net/talk/
I'm thinkin he may be a member on that message board , several pages back he did mention being a participant on close to one hundred discussion forums.
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... needs more pages!!!
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Take a look at all the pictures on this site: http://128.83.80.193/scarysteering/scarysteering9.html
Each and every modification was done by somebody that thought it was a great and inexpensive idea.
Vince
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Could someone here please delete this whole thread, and change the first post to state:
"Don't overtighten your belts."
I might not get the time I spent reading this back, but it might save someone. :P
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i am sure that CJA is comprised of many that would laugh and giggle over your booty fab ideas at a campfire with a cold beer in hand,
Hey does anyone want to have a campfire?
PS I got a nice hockey puck that i snapped in ~3 pieces....Ill sell it for 100$ since its an anomaly (...nat)
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Take a look at all the pictures on this site: http://128.83.80.193/scarysteering/scarysteering9.html
Each and every modification was done by somebody that thought it was a great and inexpensive idea.
Vince
I'm guessing that all those rigs have only "minor driveshaft vibes"....
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X-treme great link there's some highly amusing stuff there. I especially liked the rebar draglink.
I am not interested in warring with any or all of you, been there done that, accomplished little and I apologize to all for the time wasted.
That said I don't think this stuff is really in the same category as the stuff I do.
Cheers!